What do you think about this?

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Fantastic_Mr_Fox

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Hello folks, I just wondered what your views are on this? Im not after getting into any arguments or name calling etc. Just a sensible discussion.


A teenager has admitted using a mobile phone to film dogs killing a cat and a young fox on Merseyside.

The 17-year-old, from Kirkby, was part of a gang who goaded the dogs into savaging the animals in 2008.

At Knowsley Youth Court, he admitted two counts of causing unnecessary suffering to the animals by allowing dogs to kill them.

The teenager, who cannot be named, was warned that he could face custody when he is sentenced in a fortnight.

The court was shown harrowing footage of the attacks, which took place in May and July 2008.

In one clip, a young fox is seen cowering in a cage in a field before large lurcher dogs are encouraged to tear it to pieces.


It is heard to be constantly wailing as it is torn to pieces alive

John Elwood, prosecuting
In another piece of film, a black and white cat is stood on by one of the group as the dogs maul it to death.

The footage was found by Merseyside Police after officers seized the phone during an unrelated inquiry, the court heard.

John Elwood, prosecuting for the RSPCA, said the attack on the cat was particularly disturbing.

Custody warning

"The full horror of the pain which the cat suffered can be discerned from the video recording," said Mr Elwood.

"It is heard to be constantly wailing as it is torn to pieces alive," he added.

John Hinchcliffe, defending, said his client was just one of a number of people involved in the incidents but regretted his actions.

The hearing was adjourned for pre-sentence reports but Katherine Pye, chair of the bench, said they would be examined "with a view to a custodial sentence".

The teenager was released on unconditional bail until the sentencing hearing on 23 February.
 
Your right. It has nothing to do with hunting, but it has got a lot to do with setting dogs on defenseless animals which is extremely cruel and why the majoirty of people in this Country are apposed to hunting!
 
If it was my cat I'd kill them
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Ditto this. When i was about 12 and lived at home with my parents (obviously) we lived on a counsil estate in high wycombe. We had been to visit my grandma and on returning our next door neighbers where out side our house laughing. They shouted abuse at us like they always did and they told us to check out our back garden. We went round and to our horror we found they had ripped the front off our three locked rabbit hutches and they had set there dog on my sissters rabbit and killed it. My rabbit had got away and our other neighbers caught it hopping up the road and the family rabbit was terrified at the back of his hutch. Now my mum is normaly very quiet and ignores everyone but on discovering this she chased the neighbers up the road swearing at them. Sadly we had no evidance as to what had happened or rather who did it and due to local politics the police didn't care anyway. These are the same naighbers who beat my sister up alot and where always on the rob and causing trouble. This insedent is very similar to mine just young thugs who will prob go on to hurt people in the same way. They do say alot of murders start with this kind of animal crulty.
It has nothing to do with hunting and i hope these people rot in gail.
Ok i've said my peice i'll get off my soap box now.
 
Your right. It has nothing to do with hunting, but it has got a lot to do with setting dogs on defenseless animals which is extremely cruel and why the majoirty of people in this Country are apposed to hunting!
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It is one or the other - either it is to do with hunting, and it's clear from your post what you think hunting is, or it is not. Which is it?

By the way, post-ban, live quarry is not chased. Even pre-ban, foxes were not held down and were able to get away if they were quick enough (not too old or sick) so the comparison is not correct.

Not sure why I waded in, knowing this would become an argument, but I'm bored and waiting for home time! :p
 
No, I dont put rat poison down. I dont have a problem with rats cheers. Even if I did I wouldnt kill them just for been there in the first place!

There is a huge comparison between the story of the Mersyside thugs and to what you get/got up to in the Countryside. I just cant see how you can claim its cruel to kill the cat in such a way and it was cruel to do what they did to your sisters rabbit, but its perfectly reasonable to do this to a fox.

I also agree with you that people who kill animals for fun often end up doing it to humans too. It is very worrying!
 
It's totaly different to how we hunt foxes. But you arn't going to listen to us as you have your own fluffy view on life and thats fine it's up to you how you live your life as it is up to me how i live mine. I used to be anti hunting as i believed all the rubbish i had been told by my anti family and i lived in a town and didn't realy understand how hunting worked. But once i moved out to the countryside i lurnt the truth about it. There's no telling half my family though they just don't understand. Also please don't miss quote me there is a huge difference between me and my neighbers. They are thugs i am a nice charming law abiding person who just happens to hunt. I would not hurt another person.
I'm glad you don't have double standerds though as alot of my anti family would happily poison a rat. Another thing i hate is veggies who eat fish.
 
It can't really be a sensible discussion can it? Not when you pick an example which has about as many similarities to fox hunting as a banana has to a radish. Hunting in its pre-ban traditional sense is a method of culling the population that is firmly based on principles of natural selection. There are two outcomes - a clean, quick kill or a complete get away. In this example that you have dragged up the animals were unable to get away because of the cage or the boot.

You also try to make the link between sadists inflicting harm on these poor creatures and those who go hunting in its traditional forms. This frankly shows just how little you know about the hunting issue. A sadist wouldn't get many kicks from pre-ban hunting - a fox would run fast, followed by the hounds who take a direct route across country; the huntsman and whip will have to take the safest route across, far behind them are the field, many of whom will not be jumping or will be on bikes or feet. The chances of seeing the kill are minimal, not impossible but there would be cheaper more guaranteed ways of getting a sadistic thrill. As my hunt master once likened it to a football fan stood in the street outside the stadium, he can hear what is happening and knows what is taking place but cannot take any pleasure by seeing it.

If you wish to debate, at least make valid comparisons and sensible points.
 
"Even pre-ban, foxes were not held down and were able to get away if they were quick enough (not too old or sick) so the comparison is not correct."

What is the purpose of terriermen then?

"I wonder Mr Fox, do you eat meat?? Do you wear leather shoes?"

Nope, I am veggie. After seeing how animals are treated in the meat industry I made a decision that I would never eat meat again.

"Another thing i hate is veggies who eat fish"

Why?


"But you arn't going to listen to us as you have your own fluffy view on life and thats fine it's up to you how you live your life as it is up to me how i live mine."

If I wasnt going to listen to you I would not be posting comments on this forum! The reason I am on here is to try to understand why people hunt. I dont have a fluffy view on life. I am fully aware what goes on in the World cheers!

I have come on here and have been polite to you lot, but you seem to jump down the throat of anyone who doesnt agree with your sport! Like I said at the top of the page I am here for a sensible debate, thats all!
 
What a dreadful thing to have happened, and yes - lets hope these sick individuals get the custodial sentences they deserve.

As you'll be well aware FMF this has nothing to do with hunting, thankfully. But I'm grateful for you bringing it to our attention and highlighting the seriousness with which the judge in this case is taking the situation - which is most refreshing.
 
So you arent a vegan then? As i am sure dairy cows are treated a lot worse than beef cattle, ie taking day old calves away - not that I am a vegan but I just think many veggies are hypocrites if they consume dairy products. At least a beef animal has a shorter life whereas dairy cows go on for years.
 
Your right. It has nothing to do with hunting, but it has got a lot to do with setting dogs on defenseless animals which is extremely cruel and why the majoirty of people in this Country are apposed to hunting!
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You are just spoiling for an argument, this is a Hunting thread we discuss hunting with horses and hounds, perhaps put this in soapbox or recent news to discuss.

There are many other forums were people winge about hunting, maybe go to one of those if you want someone to agree with you.
 
The difficulty with your post is that you seem to compare what the lads did in Liverpool to what hunters do and that is why you get people being defensive.

If you want to understand about hunting and the reasons for it then ask people why they go hunting and you would probably find a lot of people willing to explain why they do it and why they believe that it is not cruel.

Hunts used to be invited over land at the request of the farmers as a way of controlling the fox population. In the absence of hunting, the problem some farmers have with foxes remains and so alternative methods are used, poison, trapping and shooting, all of which are less humane than hunting.

Foxes do not die nice deaths in the wild. They die from disease, hunger, injury etc, slowly. Hunting is relatively quick and like has been said above, they will either get clean away or not.

Terriermen are called in if there is a problem fox that needs to be dispatched. It is not the hunt who decide to use a terrierman, it is the farmer's decision.
 
"Another thing i hate is veggies who eat fish"

Why?
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Oh i take it you eat fish then. My problem is double standards. Do you know when fish are cought they are just left in the net and if unable to swim they will drown. If they survive this they are dragged out of the sea and left to suffercate on the deck of the boat. How is that fair. Animals farmed for meat lead a good life and how they are dispatched is regulated to ensure reduced suffering. My problem is people playing god and desiding which animals are cute and FLUFFY and deserve to live and which animals deserve to die. Can't you see a problem with that?

I have come on here and have been polite to you lot, but you seem to jump down the throat of anyone who doesnt agree with your sport! Like I said at the top of the page I am here for a sensible debate, thats all!
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I have been polite to you and i know there is no point trying to explain hunting to you as i explained earlyer. You are the one who sugested i will become a muderer.
You have not come on here to have a sensible debate we have tried to explain the differences between your example and hunting but you won't listen and just
jump down the throat of anyone who doesnt agree with you
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If you want a sensible debate anyway you should have it on an open forum noy on a hunting forum where everyone else will be pro hunting. Ofcourse it seems as if everyone is ganging up on you as we all have a different view to you.
 
Well first of all this is a thread to discuss hunting! It doesn't say anywhere that it is for pro hunters only or anti hunters only!

Secondly I dont think you can really class vegetarians as hypocrites when people who hunt claim to be animal lovers.

I would also like to point out Laura that I have never suggested you will become a murder! That comment is ridiculous and you are trying to twist my words in your favour!

I should have thought better than to come on here and challenge your sport. Its a shame that people have to take out their anger and aggression on wild animals and claim that its in the "interests of nature" and "pest control" it just doesn't wash! It has been proven that hunting pays hardly any part in the control of foxes whatsoever and it has also been proven that hunting is cruel and causes suffering, but somehow you dont want to accept these facts. Im not some unwashed, jobless bunny hugger as you like to call us anti's. Im just someone who happens to care about animals and our wildlife and hates the fact that people seem to think they have the right to chase and set dogs on them! To be perfectly honest, I see no difference in how the thugs from Mersyside behaved and how you behave. If you didn't enjoy taking part in the killing of the fox then you would have no problem in converting to drag hunting.
 
Mr Fox, I just wondered if you go onto fishing or shooting forums and stir up bad feelings there. Or is it just on here that you like to start a pointless argument?
As people have stated, this is a hunting forum, and so its for people who hunt - not poeple who want to start a "debate".
I 'm sure there are anti hunting forums you could go onto to share your views?
And I'm disappointed you didnt describe yourself as a Vegan. This means as a vegitarian, you contribute to the death of animals. Perhaps you should reconcider your position on this???
 
See you just proved my point you are not listening to a word we are saying. Veggies aren't ment to eat meat as they are living animals. Can you please tell me why it is ok to eat fish who last time i checked where living animals?
 
If you didn't enjoy taking part in the killing of the fox then you would have no problem in converting to drag hunting.
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OP: FYI I go blood hounding, there is no fox or scent of any animal involved, I also have no problem with converting to drag hunting, I do have a problem with small minded people on their soap box sprouting a load of rubbish facts, in fact people like you will push people like me (who don't fox hunt) to go just because I cannot stand theabsolute rubbish that you say.
 
I should have thought better than to come on here and challenge your sport. Its a shame that people have to take out their anger and aggression on wild animals and claim that its in the "interests of nature" and "pest control" it just doesn't wash! It has been proven that hunting pays hardly any part in the control of foxes whatsoever and it has also been proven that hunting is cruel and causes suffering, but somehow you dont want to accept these facts. Im not some unwashed, jobless bunny hugger as you like to call us anti's. Im just someone who happens to care about animals and our wildlife and hates the fact that people seem to think they have the right to chase and set dogs on them! To be perfectly honest, I see no difference in how the thugs from Mersyside behaved and how you behave. If you didn't enjoy taking part in the killing of the fox then you would have no problem in converting to drag hunting.
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Do you acknowledge that pest species have to be managed? If you can't admit that then there is absolutely no point in us carrying on this debate.

You keep asserting about this proof that there is that makes hunting cruel, but you don't seem to be able to provide supporting evidence. The Scott Henderson Report nor the Burns Report support your argument of cruelty. Several papers from Vets for Wildlife Management that are freely available state that fox hunting is not cruel. While research from the University of Kent has found that country sports fans who also class themselves as wildlife lovers plant more trees, miles of hedges and maintain more countryside than the anti-hunting brigade manage.

You claim the antis love animals, tell me then why the conditions at Baronsdown are so horrendous that the deer are suffering. Any country dweller would know that supplementary feeding of deer, simply takes the population in that area to unacceptably high levels where disease can reign. Any competent stalker would know you can't shoot deer from a moving vehicle and anyone with an ounce of common sense wouldn't try to treat deer with medicated cattle cake, knowing they are free range over Exmoor and destined for the food chain.

I have examined the methods of control that are permitted and seen hunting pre-ban and post-ban first hand. To me hunting will be the only method of control and I will fight for repeal. Hunting is the only method with two clear outcomes - a kill or a clean escape, even with terrierwork the fox is humanely dispatched. Lamping with a rifle cannot guarantee a 100% kill rate, and how do you know you are targeting the weak fox that is most danger to livestock.

Your final point is that those who simply enjoy hunting can transfer allegiance to the drag packs. It just doesn't work like that, you seem to be assuming that everyone who hunts does so on a horse for the thrill of a fast gallop across country. Although I have hunted on 4 legs once, my main steed is a bicycle. I tried to follow the local draghounds and just couldn't keep up. On a meet where I was on home territory that I knew like the back of my hand, the coverts that take us three hours, the draghounds went through in 30 minutes. For every 1 person hunting on a horse there are another 10 hunting in cars, on foot or on bikes. Drag hunting has nothing for them.

I'll be interested to hear your response to these matters. You profess to care very much for wildlife, yet there are certain double standards between eating farmed fish, yet not killing for red meat or pest control.
 
I think you should go back to your wigwam and smoke some dope.

Bore off with your twisted logic!!!

The funniest thing I have heard today is that Douglas Batchelor is not a veggie....go figure. I doubt very much his chicken tikka masala after a hard weeks campagning is a product of happy hens.
 
"Lamping with a rifle cannot guarantee a 100% kill rate, and how do you know you are targeting the weak fox that is most danger to livestock. "

We have had long discussions about some of this before, and in the course of those we found out that The Burns report established that lamping by serious gunmen rather than the lad with his air rifle was at least as humane as hunting with hounds. We also had two gunmen, one previously a strong supporter of hunting with hounds and now firmly against on humanitarian grounds, tell us that their kills are clean. They are targetting the right animals by shooting them where they prey, instead of catching the weakest one whose scent they light upon.

Much of the argument above also seems to infer that hunting with hounds replaces other methods of fox control. I understand that the statistic was that 70% of foxes were killed by other means than fox hunting pre-ban. This is not and never has been an either/or situation.

Just wanted to make those points because if the OP is genuinely interested in a fair debate, they need repeating.

I also can't see the slightest conflict between being against hunting fox with hounds and for eating farmed meat. In the case of farmed meat, I eat an animal which would have had no life at all if it was not required for food for humans. It owes its life to being destined to be eaten. I want it to be well kept and humanely killed and I buy meat from sources where I can be assured that is the case (Stumpy tasted particularly good for a lamb whose mother bit his foot off instead of his umbilical cord).

There is no relationship whatsoever between eating meat and choosing not to have fun on my horse by following hounds chasing a fox, when there are alternative and arguably more humane ways to cull the fox.

I hope we can stop the veggie-sniping because it gets everyone nowhere and diminshes the pro argument to a point where people can ridicule it, and we need serious discussion on this, not ridicule.
 
At last! Someone who wishes to engage in a serious debate!

I will continue to debate tomorrow when I have access to a PC. I don't find typing too many words on an iPhone much fun!

Look forward to catching up with you all tomorrow.
 
""even with terrierwork the fox is humanely dispatched""

I don't see the point of terrier work as the hunt always says the fox is killed quickly or escapes, so therefore terrier men contradict the hunt by not allowing foxes to escape.
 
""even with terrierwork the fox is humanely dispatched""

I don't see the point of terrier work as the hunt always says the fox is killed quickly or escapes, so therefore terrier men contradict the hunt by not allowing foxes to escape.
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I have to say that I have felt pretty much the same about the terrier work.
 
You keep trotting out your anecdotal evidence, yet nothing you have said on this thread is backed up by any serious academic argument. A paper commissioned by the Middle Way Group - a parliamentary organisation that is neither pro nor anti found that:

"The majority of foxes culled in the UK are shot using a rifle. Wounding rates using a rifle can be up to 48% and for a shotgun as high as 60%. Killing rates increase but wounding rates do not decrease with the skill of the marksmen"

It is very easy to focus the argument on fox hunting only, but how would you propose managing the red deer herd on Exmoor without any form of hunting with hounds. Who would operate the casualty deer service? You also conveniently ignore the wider benefits that hunting brings to rural communities - the fallen stock scheme being just one of them.

I await your comments about the conservation benefits of country sports, but I won't hold my breath. Nor do you address my point that drag hunting has nothing for the average follower of hounds - the hound work isn't as refined and the pace too fast for those on foot and bike.

I wasn't engaging in sniping of vegetarians, I haven't got a problem with how people choose to live their live and your choice of meat sourcing is admirable. However I do object to people telling me how I should live my life.
 
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