What do you think? Cross about the situation we a puppy we bred....

[Dobiegirl]

8 Hours alone in a crate or the home is completely unacceptable for such a young dog, I know the owners circumstances have changed and perhaps that is the angle you should approach the owner. Unless someone can come in regularly and let it out and interact with it then she should as Galaxy use doggy daycare or should rehome the dog. At the moment this poor dog has no quality of life and she is storing up behavioural problems later down the line.

 

[CAYLA]

Call the purchaser and ask in general "how is the puppy"? and explain you are are/have been contacting everyone and wanted to arrange a puppy meet up so all pups can have a blast and come back to see you.
She may well (open up) and tell you she is having issues, atleast this way you will know.
Also tell them another reason you are phoning is that (although) nobody is going to be breeding from any of the pups (as you have spoken to them all) as they are just pets (from untested parents), tell her the bitch has (whatever) you want to make up (hip dysplasia) and the father has OCD in his elbows, so obs you need to be a responsible breeder and inform everyone so they know NOT to breed and risk such hereditary issues. (she what she answers) you may be surprised and she may say (we are struggling) if she does offer to buy the puppy back at (full cost) as you cannot breed from your dogs again due to the health issues you now know about and would love one of the pups back. (worth a try)

Crating is not an issue, (however over crating is) so if this dog is being crated 8 hours a day and its been brought to your knowledge (then indeed) I would get it back (be walking into the house and taking it (as I have done) with a rescue) or taking it from the garden either way I would get it back! go down the amicable route 1st, and maybe involve your mam in the final stages as its her not you who needs to learn a valuable lesson but if you think she may hinder the process tell her after you have spoken to the purchaser.

 

[Mongoose11]

Seriously, you would consider stealing the animal back for 'over crating'?

Owner thinks she had a long text convention with my Mum today but it was me. She explained that she is crated three days a week (with a lunchtime toilet visit) as her mum has the dogs the other two week days. She thinks the pup has anxiety as she only wees when they are out of the house if left out of crate, she can't seem to understand that she doesn't wee in the house when they are there as she will be letting her out to wee more often than every four hours!

She explained that everything was fine, sent a video of the dogs playing in the park and a lot of pictures of them all snuggled together. Then said that the pup didn't mind being in her crate (Doolittle moment clearly) and that she was going to get a bigger one. I explained that she wouldn't house train her by crating her as the only place she was being trained to stay dry was in her crate. I did purposefully call the crate a cage during the conversation because I think semantics are important here. I advised her that I would start leaving her out of the cage but shut in the kitchen for now and take it from there.....

I didn't get a reply to that last one with the clear advice. Obviously I will have to keep going with this one. I don't think it is appropriate to try and remove the pup, not at all.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I did purposefully call the crate a cage during the conversation because I think semantics are important here. I advised her that I would start leaving her out of the cage but shut in the kitchen for now and take it from there.....

The problem about leaving her shut in the kitchen, is that they're still not training her anything. You can't train a dog anything when you're not in the room with it (which is why I crate - yes, it's a crate, it's made of plastic overnight) and it won't solve the problem. She is likely to just pee in the kitchen.
Would an outside run or a dog walker be a complete no-no?

 

[Mongoose11]

I understand but having her out of the crate rather than in it for 8 hours was a concern. She has two weeks off from next week so I recommended that she do some training with her in that time and have shorter periods of leaving her alone (but out of the crate). I don't have all of the answers because I'm not there with the dog.

 

[Venevidivici]

I would imagine she will be happier (slightly!) out of the crate and loose in the kitchen but will start to trash/chew stuff they don't want her to (that's what mine would do!)and be put back in the crate 8hrs a day,sharpish.
It's not just the crate-it's being on her own for 8hrs a day for half of the week. She must be sooooo bored,let alone spending her formative months pondering the inside of a crate...(And I don't think kongs etc are the answer (tho better than nothing) - they won't last all day... :-/ )
Pup needs a dog walker/crèche.Clearly the owner can't see/doesn't accept that. What a shame. You've tried tho-maybe you'll get further with her?
People forget how high maintenance pups are (I know I'd forgotten - 10yrs since we've had a pup!) I look back now & realise how easy and uncomplicated life was with our two old dogs,who liked to sleep in front of the Aga as many hrs in a day as possible and barely noticed if you were in or out! However,I work from home,unlike this lady.

 

[CAYLA]

"Seriously" as you are asking me this question (if I got wind a rescue dog I rehomed was crated what I deemed excessively (yes) I would remove the dog! Im all for crating (I wrote a crate guide in order to help people better understand crates and their use) and we crate train any of our rescues we deem need crating! (however if I got wind a 6 month old pup I rehomed was being crated for 8 hours a day with a dinner break and they took no advice from me or ran any issues by me (esp when each and every animal I rehome/ the adopters are advised im a phone call/email away for any advice) then in our contract there is a condition that states the following....... "the rescue may remove the animal at his/her discresion at any time should they feel the animal is being cared for inappropriately"....... I would class being crated for excessive hours, esp for a puppy of such a young age a concern for me to seriously consider (removing) the dog/pup from the adopter! however you cannot do this as you/your mam sold the pup (so they can do as they wish) hence my suggestion of trying contact (not text) actually calling her and suggesting a visit (have a look yourself) put your own mind at ease. (I would) it could be all guess/hear say. I will admit I have not read each post.

 

[CAYLA]

I would imagine she will be happier (slightly!) out of the crate and loose in the kitchen but will start to trash/chew stuff they don't want her to (that's what mine would do!)and be put back in the crate 8hrs a day,sharpish.
It's not just the crate-it's being on her own for 8hrs a day for half of the week. She must be sooooo bored,let alone spending her formative months pondering the inside of a crate...(And I don't think kongs etc are the answer (tho better than nothing) - they won't last all day... :-/ )
Pup needs a dog walker/crèche.Clearly the owner can't see/doesn't accept that. What a shame. You've tried tho-maybe you'll get further with her?
People forget how high maintenance pups are (I know I'd forgotten - 10yrs since we've had a pup!) I look back now & realise how easy and uncomplicated life was with our two old dogs,who liked to sleep in front of the Aga as many hrs in a day as possible and barely noticed if you were in or out! However,I work from home,unlike this lady.

This 8 hours left out of a crate is just as bad for a puppy of this age, is the puppy left 8 hours part of the week?

 

[Venevidivici]

^^ yes,it's left 8hrs a day in a crate(let out for a wee after 4hrs,then back in crate for another 4) for 3 days a week

 

[Mongoose11]

This is a private sale. How do you propose I go about inviting myself into their house? I have recommended the training in the two weeks holiday she has coming up and that 8 hours, even with a toilet break is unacceptable time in the crate at that age (this isn't though the night). I am at a loss of what else to do. This dog is not mistreated but it is being mis managed. Sharer has a dog walker once a week on a long work day and this owner has recently heard about that so the seed is planted there too.

This isn't hearsay, I am in daily contact with my sharer who sees this pup regularly and has almost daily contact with its owner.

 

[lexiedhb]

In fact - have you even read the thread? This owner has not contacted us to say that she needs help, she has not asked to give the pup back. The problem is that I don't think she has trained her effectively and is currently crating her. What would you suggest I do call the RSPCA, steal the dog back? Hardly necessary. This thread was to share my dismay and ask for advice about how to approach the situation. What would you do? Call the owner and say that you had heard things weren't perfect and would she like some help? That's about all I can do so I am not sure what you are getting at. I am first going to see if My sharer can pass on my advice as it is her that the owner has shared the problem with.

How would a 'back up home ' be of help here? The pup isn't being handed back. What's your point? If she was to find herself needing a home she would go back to my Mum. Again, what is your point?

Pup was unexpected- had you had 12 homes lined up for say 8 pups then a quickie replacement home would not needed to be found and maybe you could have vetted them and their training practices better.

You can not dictate how someone trains one of your pups once it is in its new home. Yes I would have called them to offer advice- not second hand through someone else. What you think is right is just your opinion- many many different ways to train a dog- not that im saying I agree with crating a young pup all the time.

Glad to hear your mum would have any of the pups back if needs be.

 

[Mongoose11]

Pup was unexpected- had you had 12 homes lined up for say 8 pups then a quickie replacement home would not needed to be found and maybe you could have vetted them and their training practices better.

You can not dictate how someone trains one of your pups once it is in its new home. Yes I would have called them to offer advice- not second hand through someone else. What you think is right is just your opinion- many many different ways to train a dog- not that im saying I agree with crating a young pup all the time.

Glad to hear your mum would have any of the pups back if needs be.

We didn't have to find a quickie replacement home? What are you talking about? The pup was a surprise to the buyer (from her husband) not a suprise to us! Mum was very aware that her bitch was pregnant as had, rightly or wrongly, bred purposefully.

We met the husband several times and he visited the pup as it grew not the wife as it was a suprise for her. So let me get this straight, you would secure 12 homes for 8 pups? What and then it's a lottery?

 

[lexiedhb]

We didn't have to find a quickie replacement home? What are you talking about? The pup was a surprise to the buyer (from her husband) not a suprise to us! Mum was very aware that her bitch was pregnant as had, rightly or wrongly, bred purposefully.

We met the husband several times and he visited the pup as it grew not the wife as it was a suprise for her. So let me get this straight, you would secure 12 homes for 8 pups? What and then it's a lottery?

Ahh ok I thought it was an extra surprise pup- my bad.

Yes If I were to breed- which I wont, I would secure extra homes in case scans were wrong and more pups arrived than were expected, or a home fell through for whatever reason- think thats pretty normal amoung responsible breeders. No its not a lottery, its like a waiting list.

 

[Jools2345]

This isn't hearsay, I am in daily contact with my sharer who sees this pup regularly and has almost daily contact with its owner.

so it is hearsay you are not in direct contact with the owner, so its second hand information which to my mind IS hearsay.

whether the pup is in a crate or not is immaterial (IMO), personally i crate my youngsters and would (if i had any) crate any destructive dogs. this pup may be suffering from separation anxiety, how do you know it is not. i would walk,play and stimulate a pup before work have it let out for 15mins at lunchtime and walk, excersize and spend time with the pup after work in this situation-and no it would not be ideal but i do have a multi dog household so at least there is company and i would leave outside ina kennel and run. and i have never had separation anxiety in my dogs.

however if the pup is not getting stimulation before and after the 8hrs of being left and no-one is spending a short time (15mins) with pup at lunchtime then i think you need to try and intervene.

but you need to speak directly to the owners not your sharer and if you dont want to do that or they dont want your intervention then tough-more effort should have been made to check the home out. but stop complaining about the situation if you wont speak direct to those invlvolved

 

[Mongoose11]

Pretty sure I posted about having contact with the owner yesterday....

 

[Mongoose11]

I honestly don't know why this thread has felt so hostile. I have posted about the best way to go about making a better situation for this pup - which I thought was the right thing to do (I also had a good moan too). I don't think I should go storming on in, tact is required. I don't think the pup needs to be removed and I don't know how else to advise her but to try and tease out the issues and give advice. Jeez. AAD to regular members is what TTR is to newbies!

 

[Mongoose11]

Is this thread THAT difficult to follow Jools? When she got the pup she worked from home a fair bit, now she doesn't. Which bit of that am I responsible for?

I'm sorry, I just do not know why I am under fire here. I am trying to do the right thing and advise the owner which is what I should do and that's still not good enough for the majority. I give up.

 

[lexiedhb]

So get on the phone, or go and actually see the woman!!!!

 

[Mongoose11]

So get on the phone, or go and actually see the woman!!!!

So, I just go and knock on the door uninvited? When she hasn't suggested in any way that she won't take forward what has been recommended? She is a very confident person who seems to make up her own mind but she didn't disagree with anything I had said specifically. I can only wait to see or hear if she puts it into practice. You would just turn up unannounced and you don't think that would create hostility. I must be mental.


Is there a delete thread option before I actually pull my own hair out?

 

[stargirl88]

Difficult one

All I can suggest is what has already been said - perhaps arrange a group walk where ALL the pups can go for a long walk together, and have a talk with the owner. If your sharer/friend has contact with this woman on a regular basis - can she not drop strong hints, such as "oh, crating puppies for so long is bad (referring to a made up situation she can be reffering to, or something)

Or find some book/info on the internet and give it to the woman "oh, you said your pup was peeing in the house? I spotted this on the tinerweb......"

It's not easy dealing with people who don't take advice from others!!! You wont be able to physically remove the pup, so it's a tough one.

 

[Mongoose11]

Difficult one

If your sharer/friend has contact with this woman on a regular basis - can she not drop strong hints, such as "oh, crating puppies for so long is bad (referring to a made up situation she can be reffering to, or something)

Thanks SG yup, this has now been done in person and through a conversation with the owner. Made it clear that the long crating wasn't ideal and won't actually train the dog.

It is a difficult one and in no way a welfare issue as we might usually classify one, just a mismanagement issue IMO. I have been pretty shocked at some of the dramatic advice on here.

 

[CAYLA]

I did give you advice and was not hostile, I think the advice given is varied and helpful, I covered approaching her to speak to her/give her a chance to open up if she wishes and arrange a dog meet (talk) not text, I covered putting her of breeding (as this was also mentioned)
I also happened to mention if it was a rescue and I did indeed find out it was crated 8 hours a day at that age I would remove it. I cannot see how that info was not helpful

 

[MurphysMinder]

It might be worth asking Cayla for a copy of her crate training guide (which also covers most aspect of puppy training). Hopefully the owner of the pup will reply to your text and that will give you an opening to give her the guide.
I have no issue with crating, Freya is 12 months old and is still crated when left in the house but the absolute maximum (very rarely) is 5 hours, and she would then be out of it for the rest of the day. 8 hours is too long for a pup be it in a crate or with the run of the house imo.
It is unfortunate the owners work situation has changed, as the pup was a surprise present in all fairness if she knew her hours were changing she maybe wouldn't have gone and bought a pup for herself.

 

[stargirl88]

It might be worth asking Cayla for a copy of her crate training guide (which also covers most aspect of puppy training).

That's a good point, get a copy of the crate guide and do the "oh, found this on the net, looked appropriate" thing

 

[Dobiegirl]

I know you are between a rock and a hard place but I do believe you have been given some good advice, it may not be the advice you want but never the less its good advice. I actualy believe it is a welfare issue as this pup is in isolation for 8hrs even with one toilet break in between. They need lots of stimulation and socialisation at this age otherwise they will have behavioural problems later.

Having Caylas crate and puppy guide is a wonderful idea and perhaps you could ring her and tell her you forgot to give it to her earlier and can you drop it round. This will get you in and you can take it from there.

 

[Jools2345]

Is this thread THAT difficult to follow Jools? When she got the pup she worked from home a fair bit, now she doesn't. Which bit of that am I responsible for?

I'm sorry, I just do not know why I am under fire here. I am trying to do the right thing and advise the owner which is what I should do and that's still not good enough for the majority. I give up.

you did not speak to her,you text her that is very different

i would never entertain the idea of homing a dog/puppy as a gift unless all those responsible were aware and in agreement about taking on the responsibility for the animal. maybe she would not have taken a pup on if she was thinking of full time work the problem is though that emotions get involved when animals are given as gifts and people find it difficult to say no even when it is in the animals best interest.

the only hostility i can see on this thread is coming from you,

for the dogs sake i do hope things get sorted

 

[Mongoose11]

you did not speak to her,you text her that is very different

i would never entertain the idea of homing a dog/puppy as a gift unless all those responsible were aware and in agreement about taking on the responsibility for the animal. maybe she would not have taken a pup on if she was thinking of full time work the problem is though that emotions get involved when animals are given as gifts and people find it difficult to say no even when it is in the animals best interest.

the only hostility i can see on this thread is coming from you,

for the dogs sake i do hope things get sorted

She knew of the litter, her best friend was having one of the boys, she begged her husband for one of them. He said no and planned it as a suprise, so the pup was wanted.

I don't see why people can't just give advice in the issue at hand rather than dig around the issue. This is one issue that has arisen out of 8 homes. Well shoot me down (whoops too late ) I didn't predict that she would get a full time out of the house job or keep the pup created for 8 hours a day.

 

[AmyMay]

Im not sure that suggesting taking the dog (ie stealing) is good advice., however well intentioned.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I thought Cayla's advice about the phone call re hips and elbows was inspired actually and will keep it for future reference.

I also suggested an outdoor run, which has been completely 'dug around' as you put it.

 

[Mongoose11]

Apols CC, I did think I had mentioned that the outdoor run wasn't possible but having looked back I didn't. Thanks though.

Cayla thanks for your advice and I would be glad of the crating guide but I don't think it is right to incorrectly inform this owner that their animal may have inherited genetic issues that aren't present. Why would I want to panic her like that? Yes, to stop her from breeding I understand that but I would be devestated if someone called me today to say they forgot to tell me that my mare's dam and sire had potentially life limiting genetic issues... if she continues with her desire to breed I will explain to her ehy I think it is a bad idea and why I wouldn't want her to. I won't be lying to her and causing her emotional distress. Nor will I be entering her home illegally or otherwise and taking the animal back.