What do you think of barefoot trimmers?

[paulineh]

For years all my horses were shod and I then got a New Forester who had never been shod. She was trimmed by my farrier and never had a problem. In 2012 one of my Arab mares was diagnosed with Navicular and I went down the medication and remedial shoeing, then after other issues I took her shoes off (June 2013) and she was trimmed by my farrier. To start with things were fine but then she started to be footy so I asked a lady who is a EP to come and see her. The mare is due to be trimmed again on Monday and after weeks of walking 5 days with boots and remedial pads and one day totally bare foot she is looking sounder. Her feet look good and healthy and she is happy.

I have nothing against my farrier but the EP has done a better job for my mare. If I was to go down the lines again of having a horse Bare foot I would always use an EP .

 

[spookypony]

The Fuzzy Furry, that's not true of all insurance companies.

Regarding "who uses a BF trimmer", the trimmers I know up here are so full with clients that it's becoming as hard for new people to find a trimmer as it is a farrier.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

The Fuzzy Furry, that's not true of all insurance companies.

Regarding "who uses a BF trimmer", the trimmers I know up here are so full with clients that it's becoming as hard for new people to find a trimmer as it is a farrier.

Apologies SP - the dealings I've had (via friends) has been just that with several of the 'big' insurers, perhaps this has changed in the past year tho?

 

[Tiddlypom]

The Fuzzy Furry, that's not true of all insurance companies.

It's worth a check of the small print in the policy, though. Anyone know of a company who will accept the work of BF trimmers? (As I previously posted, SEIB wanted full details of dates and procedures from my ex farrier).

 

[cptrayes]

I've read it through, and there is nothing in my policy about hoof care at all. I have one horse which is away from home temporarily covered by EandL, who although they can be difficult, I understand, to get to pay out, are one of the biggest insurers of horses. I don't normally insure, and one reason for that is that I don't want an insurance company telling me what I can and can't do with my own horse!

 

[hayinamanger]

I have no experience of a BF trimmer, but a livery I had several years ago used a well known trimmer. I was surprised to see that, over a period of time, the toe became longer and almost pointed, it didn't look right to me at all.

 

[dogatemysalad]

This is unfair. How is the average horse owner to know whether the work is sub standard or not, if the imbalance is subtle? A trained and qualified professional, who regularly undergoes CPD, should be on top of his/her game. I like to employ a trusted professional, be it farrier, saddler or vet and then trust them to do a good job. I do not want to be hovering over them trying to nit pick their work, I expect them, as the experts, to get it right.

I would expect the average horseowner to have a basic working knowledge of a healthy and balanced hoof. Responsible owners have a reasonable knowledge of general horse care, so why not feet too ?
There are owners who are never present when the farrier comes but it's important to have a dialogue going to discuss any changes that affects the hoof. It's an opportunity to become educated or to assess if he's interested in doing the best job for your horse.

On my yard, there are owners who know so little that they do not question why their horse is lame after shoeing every time or why they have needed to sedate for years at every visit, or that a newly shod hoof with a large flare is not well balanced. Or that asking the farrier to take off too much foot so the shoes will last longer makes their horse uncomfortable and that shoes are not meant to last 12 weeks anyway.

I do not trust the saddler , vet or farrier to know what is best for my horse. I trust them to be able to give expert advice and options, and for them and me to decide whether it is right for the horse in the circumstances.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Dogatemysalad, I agree that an owner should take an interest in their horses feet and general care. I was always present and holding the horses for my ex farrier, and we'd chat about what he was doing. However, the imbalances were subtle and crept up over a period of time. His work has graced the front cover of H and H. It took x rays to reveal the whole sorry picture.

I see far worse examples of farriery than this guy did to mine, but he still lamed two of them.

 

[TPO]

On my yard, there are owners who know so little that they do not question why their horse is lame after shoeing every time or why they have needed to sedate for years at every visit, or that a newly shod hoof with a large flare is not well balanced. Or that asking the farrier to take off too much foot so the shoes will last longer makes their horse uncomfortable and that shoes are not meant to last 12 weeks anyway.

I do not trust the saddler , vet or farrier to know what is best for my horse. I trust them to be able to give expert advice and options, and for them and me to decide whether it is right for the horse in the circumstances.

Are you on my yard??? I didn't think anyone else only shod every 12wks or was ok that their horse has to lie down after shoeing because they are too sore to stand on their deformed, flipper-esque "typical" TB feet. Maddening and saddening...

I've used lots of farriers over the years and, worryingly, it's incredibly rare to find one that watches the horse move before and/or after let alone be able to discuss how the hoof functions or even the basic science of forces and balance.

I'm hyper aware now of hooves and despite looking for them I've not seen a well shod foot in years. I think the best I've seen recently was the GN winner on TV.

I use a trimmer but, like farriers, they are not all created equal! This is trimmer no 5 having sacked off 3 previously and 1 stopped travelling but I was on the verge of stopping using him anyway.

It's not easy whether you shoe or not but the above poster is correct that we the owners have a duty to learn as much as possible so that we can make informed decisions. It's not enough just to hand your money over and accept what is given even more so when it is causing pain and discomfort.

My horse recently had a surgical procedure and despite me logically showing that it's more practical and better for me to dress the foot and boot it my vet and the vet hospital insisted that he be shod with a hospital plate (leaving back of foot completely open for stable muck to get in...).

My vet was again trying to talk me into shoeing, how the horse "needs" them and his foot won't/can't recover with bar shoes for "support"...

The horse was shod behind by the vet school university hospital farrier under the guidance and supervision of the specialised surgeon.

They left off hind long, with toe, and used a plate in between hoof and shoe making it longer. Shod in hunter shoe and "floated" lateral wall.

Near hind they dumped back toe and over rasped then shod in "natural balance" and brought the break over point right back. This hoof is trimmed over 4cm shorter and doesn't have a plate.

This horse has previously fractured his pelvis (over 10yrs ago and I don't know the specifics of the injury) and is mechanically lame because of that. He hikes right side higher but it's thought (by myself, physio, EBWs, trainers etc -but not vet) that this can improve with correct work and conditioning (he's been out of proper work a long time). So the key is small, gradual changes and it's a bit "chicken and the egg" with regards to improving his movement and therefore improving his feet and getting his feet improved to improve his movement.

Vets agree with gradual changes so you tell me where shoeing both back feet differently, trimming to different lengths and changing break over point (one left long and one drastically brought back) falls into that plan or makes any sense at all?

After returning from hospital a week later my vet was out for a check up. I voiced all concerns and pointed out the bad science of it all to be told after plate off he "needed" bar shoes. I pulled the shoes the next day and this is the "good" part...

The vet school farrier, that it was such a shame that I couldn't travel to every 4-6wks, had not put the nails through the water line where they are supposed to go, not even through the white line where most nails unfortunately (for the horse) end up, no this "one of the best in the country", under specialised surgeon supervision, had nailed the shoes on through the SOLES!!!

Now tell me again about all the training these farriers and vets do?!

The after effects are bruising and blood had pooled under the sole. I have pictures of it all as proof. Now 12wks on the foot has been cleaner and healed better in dressings without shoes/plate and totally changed shape, growing to restore normal break over, heels are rectifying themselves and changed dramatically without bar shoes (I was told this couldn't/wouldn't happen without shoes).

It's the current trimmer that's worked WITH me and even went to vet hospital to speak to surgeon and has spoken to the vet.

There are good and bad in every profession but don't have blind faith in anyone regardless if the training you think they've undertaken. As a matter of interest has anyone ever compared the syllabus of farrier vs trimmer training? I think you'd get a shock and ditto that re vet school syllabus and how many important subjects are half day lectures, not all compulsory.

 

[Heelfirst]

I know I have said this many times but… In my opinion I don’t expect an owner to know anything more than what they wish to know, they may well pass the responsibility on to a groom, yard manager, ect.
Nor do I want to know anything about the finer points of plumbing to know if my toilet is correctly installed.
The fact of the matter is as a farrier I find the most important part of my job is that the relationship I have with the owner is professional and honest.
Now that I only trim I find although it is a totally different science the relationship must be the same.
There is no way I could have gone from being a shoeing farrier to becoming a trimmer without taking myself back to school and starting again, most of the referrals I get from vets are because they have realised that barefoot is not about taking the shoes off and running the rasp around, or performing a pasture trim.
Sorry to go on but, the thread asks: What do you think of barefoot trimmer?
Well I think like farriers, it is very dependant on the professional and honest relationship you have with them, and from this side of the fence, as I tell students: it’s about knowing when you don’t know!

 

[maccachic]

I have a brilliant barefoot trimmer 2 years training and re-quals every year (trained along strasser lines - don't fall off your seat) their are pics of the improvements to my horses feet in my profile (I think). More expensive than farriers I have used but would sacrifice quality for price.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would expect the average horseowner to have a basic working knowledge of a healthy and balanced hoof. Responsible owners have a reasonable knowledge of general horse care, so why not feet too ?
There are owners who are never present when the farrier comes but it's important to have a dialogue going to discuss any changes that affects the hoof. It's an opportunity to become educated or to assess if he's interested in doing the best job for your horse.

On my yard, there are owners who know so little that they do not question why their horse is lame after shoeing every time or why they have needed to sedate for years at every visit, or that a newly shod hoof with a large flare is not well balanced. Or that asking the farrier to take off too much foot so the shoes will last longer makes their horse uncomfortable and that shoes are not meant to last 12 weeks anyway.

I do not trust the saddler , vet or farrier to know what is best for my horse. I trust them to be able to give expert advice and options, and for them and me to decide whether it is right for the horse in the circumstances.

This is what I have learnt .
Arm yourself with knowledge to protect your horse and your pocket .
Trust no one until that trust is earned, question everyone and use the knowledge you have armed yourself with to choose who you trust well .
Blindly trust no one where your horse is concerned .

 

[Dizzle]

Very strongly against them. I used two different trimmers for my TB, one is VERY well known (think 'founding member' of one of the organisations) I had a cryptic warning about her from a NH lady but was reassured that said lady was a bit batty. Trimmer never managed to get my horse right there was something very niggly about the shape of his hooves and he never moved right, not only that she also threatened to hit him with a rasp which I didn't think appropriate. The next trimmer was a bit better and got the horse sound to start off with, then after a physio appointment I was advised that the angle of his feet was causing him back pain and once it had been pointed out to me I could see that the flare on the hooves causing the leg not to be level.

Move onto my next horse, I asked the farrier to pull her shoes for me, she is now barefoot, the hooves look amazing and I'm yet to notice a difference between her shod and not, the shape of the hooves looks far better than when a barefoot trimmer ever touched them.

I would NEVER EVER EVER EVER in a million years allow a barefoot trimmer within half a mile of my horses hooves with anything more than a wet sponge!

 

[cptrayes]

The next trimmer was a bit better and got the horse sound to start off with, then after a physio appointment I was advised that the angle of his feet was causing him back pain and once it had been pointed out to me I could see that the flare on the hooves causing the leg not to be level.

Move onto my next horse....

What happened to the one with the back problems?

In my experience of several horses with body issues, it was the other way around. The back pain was causing the odd feet, and when the back pain was resolved, so were the feet.

There are also some horses with asymmetric bodies or legs which will grow an asymmetric foot to match. Removing that asymmetry can sometimes be detrimental to the horse's soundness.

The horse will often tell you. If a trimmer removes something and the horse grows it back as fast as it can, then as a general rule, it needs it. Nothing beats seeing a horse in the flesh though.





I echo the concern of posters about farriers who never watch the horse move. I have used about ten farriers on a few dozen horses over thirty five years and never once has any of them watched the horse move.

 

[Rollin]

I have horses who are shod and not shod. My farrier always watches them move.

My farrier does the job. In the case of my young stallion graded for SHGB, farrier said he did not need shoes. Not shod at all until 5 years. He was only shod for jumping and for an endurance ride on very flinty ground.

I went to watch a barefoot trimmer at work. It seemed the deal was, the owners were taught to rasp between his visits and he charged more to trim than the farrier. Why would you do that?

 

[Dizzle]

What happened to the one with the back problems?

He saw the farrier and back issues were resolved. The horse didn't have back issues before the new trimmer had been involved.