What do you think of these hooves?

TigerTail said:
You cant paint stuff on to improve condition - that comes from the feed stimulation and environment.

Did you get the boots ordered Wagtail? Let us know how you get on :)
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Dont knock what you havent tried... do you think I would waste my money on it if I didnt see any improvement!
 
Wagtail said:
they come in pairs and my girls feet are different sizes.
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This is the most telling thing in this thread.

If you know that you need different size boots for each front hoof, it should be obvious that there is a major problem. That problem need fixing at source and not covering over by getting different size boots that make the horse more comfortable.

Put basically, the fronts being so different in size and shape means that not only are they individually unbalanced, but they are unbalanced as a whole as well. This will affect the ability of the joints to properly absorb the concussion of work. The more the horse does, the more strain that is put on the joins and muscles as they all try to compensate for the poorly balanced hooves and you can end up not only with lameness issues in the hooves and limbs, but it can transferred up into the shoulders and back.

Also, secondary lameness is a big factor. Where there is such imbalance in one hoof, there will be a level of compensation in weight bearing on the other hoof. This can cause issues on that side that may not be obvious straight away as the attention is on the hoof with the biggest imbalance.

I don't mean this is a horrible way at all, you are obviously trying everything you can for your horse, but if you leave the feet like this or buy different size boots because they help a little, it is the same as you going and buying a shoe for one foot that fits and a shoe for the other that is a size too small.

For a while, the foot with the good fitting shoe will feel fine and the foot with the small shoe will be sore.

If you keep walking in them, eventually, the foot with the small shoe will be so sore, you start to take more weight on the other foot. Then, despite one shoe being fine, you will end up with two sore feet and you won't want to walk anywhere.

This is what it is like for you horse at the moment. The shoes going on with questionably tight nails is aggravating things. But...take them off and you are still left with two odd feet.

I would honestly say that you need to a get a farrier out, preferably fork out for a remedial farrier who can work over time to balance all of the feet, both individually and as pairs.

I hope this is taken in the way it is intended...as a genuine desire to help you and your horse. I mean no offence to you or your farrier, but a farrier should be taking the lead in ensuring the feet are balanced.

Good luck and again, don't worry about getting someone else. Farriers understand. :-)
 
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_GG_ said:
This is the most telling thing in this thread.

If you know that you need different size boots for each front hoof, it should be obvious that there is a major problem. That problem need fixing at source and not covering over by getting different size boots that make the horse more comfortable.

Put basically, the fronts being so different in size and shape means that not only are they individually unbalanced, but they are unbalanced as a whole as well. This will affect the ability of the joints to properly absorb the concussion of work. The more the horse does, the more strain that is put on the joins and muscles as they all try to compensate for the poorly balanced hooves and you can end up not only with lameness issues in the hooves and limbs, but it can transferred up into the shoulders and back.

Also, secondary lameness is a big factor. Where there is such imbalance in one hoof, there will be a level of compensation in weight bearing on the other hoof. This can cause issues on that side that may not be obvious straight away as the attention is on the hoof with the biggest imbalance.

I don't mean this is a horrible way at all, you are obviously trying everything you can for your horse, but if you leave the feet like this or buy different size boots because they help a little, it is the same as you going and buying a shoe for one foot that fits and a shoe for the other that is a size too small.

For a while, the foot with the good fitting shoe will feel fine and the foot with the small shoe will be sore.

If you keep walking in them, eventually, the foot with the small shoe will be so sore, you start to take more weight on the other foot. Then, despite one shoe being fine, you will end up with two sore feet and you won't want to walk anywhere.

This is what it is like for you horse at the moment. The shoes going on with questionably tight nails is aggravating things. But...take them off and you are still left with two odd feet.

I would honestly say that you need to a get a farrier out, preferably fork out for a remedial farrier who can work over time to balance all of the feet, both individually and as pairs.

I hope this is taken in the way it is intended...as a genuine desire to help you and your horse. I mean no offence to you or your farrier, but a farrier should be taking the lead in ensuring the feet are balanced.

Good luck and again, don't worry about getting someone else. Farriers understand. :-)
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I have had the mare since she was six and she has always had a boxy foot. She is now 18. The left front became even more upright aged 10 when she had a massive hoof infection which resulted in her having the whole of its front hoof wall removed. She was off for 9 months. Then sound and competing dressage and show jumping for 5 years. Then she broke her lrft shoulder and has been off work for almost 3 years before coming sound enough to ride again recently. So this boxy foot has had two very major injuries resulting in more weight being born by the right foot, which has consequently spread. Now this right hoof is suffering the consequences. :(

This is her age 7. You can see the white hoof is more upright and smaller even then. She is now on her thied farrier and it has always been the same.

photosfromcd637.jpg
 
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Wagtail said:
I have had the mare since she was six and she has always had a boxy foot. She is now 18. The left front became even more upright aged 10 when she had a massive hoof infection which resulted in her having the whole of its front hoof wall removed. She was off for 9 months. Then sound and competing dressage and show jumping for 5 years. Then she broke her lrft shoulder and has been off work for almost 3 years before coming sound enough to ride again recently. So this boxy foot has had two very major injuries resulting in more weight being born by the right foot, which has consequently spread. Now this right hoof is suffering the consequences. :(
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What a horrible set of events bless her.

If you would like, I could show the pictures to my farrier. It has taken me a while to find someone as good as him....if he's good enough to do the queens horses, he's good enough to do mine, lol. Luckily for us, he is out of the forces now, but let me know if you would like his opinion. I won't share unless you want me to, but the offer is there.

I bet you just want to cuddle her up and make it all better :-(
 
_GG_ said:
What a horrible set of events bless her.

If you would like, I could show the pictures to my farrier. It has taken me a while to find someone as good as him....if he's good enough to do the queens horses, he's good enough to do mine, lol. Luckily for us, he is out of the forces now, but let me know if you would like his opinion. I won't share unless you want me to, but the offer is there.

I bet you just want to cuddle her up and make it all better :-(
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Thanks, yes I would be extremely grateful. For now the shoes are coming off tomorrow afternoon. Her right fore has become increasingly sore this afternoon.
 
Wagtail said:
Thank you. I think so, but I'm biased. :D
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Haha, aren't we all?

The only reason I mention a new or remedial farrier is that with the certain different approaches to trimming and the use of tailor made shoes to suit each issue, it is possible to change the shape of a hoof. Just because it is boxy doesn't mean it cannot be corrected. A TB with flat and splayed hooves can eventually have lovely heels and neat round feet as happened with my old mare thanks to the very talented work of Haydn Price who I was lucky enough to have as a farrier when I was a kid.

The TB I have now has amazing feet, but I noticed early this year that they were becoming a little flat and low in the heel. Changed farrier and in just under 90 minutes her old feet were back to perfection.

I will see what he says and let you know :-)
 
Rather than folks getting het up about the varying sizes of feet we do need to look at the most recent past events - the broken shoulder.

This will have caused a change in the shape of the feet purely because the horse will have been carrying its weight unevenly for a long time while the shoulder healed.

Give you great credit Wagtail as I would have been tough and put the horse to sleep long ago.

Given her age I think the boots are going to be great for her while her feet are carefully trimmed to bring them back into shape.
 
Tnavas said:
Rather than folks getting het up about the varying sizes of feet we do need to look at the most recent past events - the broken shoulder.

This will have caused a change in the shape of the feet purely because the horse will have been carrying its weight unevenly for a long time while the shoulder healed.

Give you great credit Wagtail as I would have been tough and put the horse to sleep long ago.

Given her age I think the boots are going to be great for her while her feet are carefully trimmed to bring them back into shape.
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She's a tough old thing. I have always been 100% certain she should live. The only time I came close was on the day it happened. She's always been in high spirits and the most consistently happy horse I have ever known. However, should her foot remain this painful, then I will do the right thing.
 
_GG_ said:
This is the most telling thing in this thread.

If you know that you need different size boots for each front hoof, it should be obvious that there is a major problem. That problem need fixing at source and not covering over by getting different size boots that make the horse more comfortable.
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So are you saying horses should have hooves that are exactly the same size? Is it not possible thathorse might need different sized hooves? How do you fix that at source? Isn't making the horse comfortable and moving a good step forward?
 
Clava said:
So are you saying horses should have hooves that are exactly the same size? Is it not possible thathorse might need different sized hooves? How do you fix that at source? Isn't making the horse comfortable and moving a good step forward?
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I think that is taking it a bit literally isn't it.

A horses front hooves should not be so different that they need different size shoes. It is also not just the size, it is the shape. When you look at the picture of this lovely mare as a 7 year old, the front hooves look like they belong on two different horses. That is not good and you will not find a farrier or vet or that matter that would say it is good for a horses hooves to be like this.

Of course it is better for the horse to made comfortable, I have in no way said anything that isn't also supporting that.

All I am saying is just what others have said. The hooves don't look good, they are very unbalanced and yes...that can be fixed at source. It is possible to change the shape and size of a horses hoof and this horse is proof of that. The boxy hoof has been made that way through trauma. The result of that trauma can be undone with correct trimming and if necessary, shoeing.

I believe it is always better to try and treat the cause and not the symptom. That doesn't mean you can't do what is necessary to make the horse comfortable in the meantime.
 
_GG_ said:
I think that is taking it a bit literally isn't it.
.
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I took nothing literally, they were genuine questions. I thought it was ok in some cases for hooves to be different boot sizes and yet you say that is the crux of the problem ("obvious there is a major problem").
 
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There are horses that need hooves of different shapes. There was one on the Rockley blog that IIRC had one leg shorter than the other and when his hooves were forced to match, he became unsound. He returned to soundness once the hooves grew back to how he needed them to be.
 
Tnavas said:
Rather than folks getting het up about the varying sizes of feet we do need to look at the most recent past events - the broken shoulder.

This will have caused a change in the shape of the feet purely because the horse will have been carrying its weight unevenly for a long time while the shoulder healed.

Give you great credit Wagtail as I would have been tough and put the horse to sleep long ago.

Given her age I think the boots are going to be great for her while her feet are carefully trimmed to bring them back into shape.
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I don't think anyone is getting het up, I can't speak for others, but personally, I see a thread asking advice and I share my opinion with the intention of helping, not criticising others.

The hoof changed shape dramatically after infection, there is no mention of a change in the hooves since the broken shoulder and in fact, the hoof has apparently always been boxy.
 
Faracat said:
There are horses that need hooves of different shapes. There was one on the Rockley blog that IIRC had one leg shorter than the other and when his hooves were forced to match, he became unsound. He returned to soundness once the hooves grew back to how he needed them to be.
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My first farrier told me that was why her hooves were different. Her left leg is shorter and so she has to stand on tip toe on that foot. The photo of her as a seven year old is prior to all her traumas. But the trauma's made the difference greater.
 
Clava said:
I took nothing literally, they were genuine questions. I thought it was ok in some cases for hooves to be different boot sizes and yet you say that is the crux of the problem ("obvious there is a major problem").
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I believe it is and I may have been misleading as I used size to make a very basic analogy of how it may feel for the horse. The general point is, the front hooves are not at all similar in any way and that is not good.

As for different sizes, I would be surprised if any horse had feet the exact same size, just as no person has feet the exact same size. But a small difference in size is very different to what this horse has.

Hope that made sense :-)
 
Wagtail said:
My first farrier told me that was why her hooves were different. Her left leg is shorter and so she has to stand on tip toe on that foot. The photo of her as a seven year old is prior to all her traumas. But the trauma's made the difference greater.
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That sounds like a good farrier to be honest :-)

As I said, mine takes everything into account and so when trimming, a good farrier would see that about your horse and trim accordingly. This is information we have not had to this point, so yes...it is a very good reason that there is such a difference. Good to know.
 
_GG_ said:
I believe it is and I may have been misleading as I used size to make a very basic analogy of how it may feel for the horse. The general point is, the front hooves are not at all similar in any way and that is not good.

As for different sizes, I would be surprised if any horse had feet the exact same size, just as no person has feet the exact same size. But a small difference in size is very different to what this horse has.

Hope that made sense :-)
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That makes sense and I agree nothing in nature is exactly the same size, but what you are saying is that a different shoe size or boot size is an issue.
 
This mare has been unshod for, I think, 3 years her feet should have balanced themselves to some extent in that time, trying to force them into a more "correct" shape by remedial shoeing seems to be totally wrong to me. Yes she has a boxy foot but apart from her injuries this is not and has never been an issue for her, the x-rays show the left pedal bone is slightly rotated but this is not the lame foot.

I wonder if the small sidebones are now the cause of her lameness, a slightly unbalanced hoof could be putting them under pressure when she is shod.
 
_GG_ said:
I don't think anyone is getting het up, I can't speak for others, but personally, I see a thread asking advice and I share my opinion with the intention of helping, not criticising others.

The hoof changed shape dramatically after infection, there is no mention of a change in the hooves since the broken shoulder and in fact, the hoof has apparently always been boxy.
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Yes the hoof has always been boxy. But the photo was taken 3 years prior to the infection. The difference has been exascerbated by the traumas because the other foot has got flatter due to the extra weight put upon it. Then she also had laminitis and the right hoof took the brunt of that.
 
She should be able to return to how her hooves were at seven. (ETA. Unless the shoulder injury would prevent this?)

I totally agree with you though WT - the first priority is to get her comfortable.

PS. She is a pretty mare and you obviously think a great deal of her. I really hope that she's sound soon.
 
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Clava said:
That makes sense and I agree nothing in nature is exactly the same size, but what you are saying is that a different shoe size or boot size is an issue.
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It is if there is not a very good reason for it. I can only go from the information that is provided at any one time and I am no expert, I just have to use the knowledge I have gained over the years.

A almost bought a horse a few years back. During the vetting, the vet mentioned that she would pass it for a two stage, but as it had a difference of 1.5cm in the front cannon bones and different shaped front hooves, she would not pass it for a five stage vetting. She explained that the added stresses of a heavier workload would eventually make the horse unsound.

All horses are a little bit asymmetric, but one of the biggest things we learned at Hartpury about confirmation was that you should look for evenness, straightness and in the hooves, that they are balanced along with all of the finer points.

That is all I am trying to say.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes the hoof has always been boxy. But the photo was taken 3 years prior to the infection. The difference has been exascerbated by the traumas because the other foot has got flatter due to the extra weight put upon it. Then she also had laminitis and the right hoof took the brunt of that.
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Blimey, laminitis too...the poor thing. I bet you have had endless sleepless nights. She's very lucky to have you!

I'd like to make it clear that all I would want for her is for her to be comfortable as well. I am simply trying to highlight the fact that there may be more than can be done for her in the long term that's all.

I wish you the best of luck.
 
I am so grateful to all of you for trying to help with my girl's frustrating lameness. It has given me so much more to go on. The side bone is an interesting one too. But the thing that puzzles me the most is how she is 100% sound in the imprints. If she doesn't go sound barefoot I will try one more time with them.
 
Wagtail said:
I am so grateful to all of you for trying to help with my girl's frustrating lameness. It has given me so much more to go on. The side bone is an interesting one too. But the thing that puzzles me the most is how she is 100% sound in the imprints. If she doesn't go sound barefoot I will try one more time with them.
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I don't know, but I wonder if it has anything to do with perhaps the way they are glued on to the hoof wall. Rather than with a shod horse, where the nails simply hold the shoe in place and all of the weight goes through the shoe, the imprints are physically glued to the hoof toe and quarters, so some of the weight may be transferred meaning more of the hoof is carrying the weight than just the hoof wall where the shoe sits???

Would be very interested to know if you ever get an answer for this :-)
 
_GG_ said:
Blimey, laminitis too...the poor thing. I bet you have had endless sleepless nights. She's very lucky to have you!

I'd like to make it clear that all I would want for her is for her to be comfortable as well. I am simply trying to highlight the fact that there may be more than can be done for her in the long term that's all.

I wish you the best of luck.
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I think you are right about changing the shape of hooves through expert farriery. I think that as the right hoof is the one that has changed then it would be good if I could get it back to the healthy hoof it once was. I don't think I can expect the boxy foot to change as I do think it is like that for a reason. I had an ex racer who came to me with dinner plate feet and my farrier got them back looking normal. I could not believe the difference. But my mare is a complicated case. There are so many contributing factors. It would be lovely if she could have her feet back to what they used to be, even though they would still be mismatched.
 
be positive said:
This mare has been unshod for, I think, 3 years her feet should have balanced themselves to some extent in that time, trying to force them into a more "correct" shape by remedial shoeing seems to be totally wrong to me.
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I think that is exactly what the horse is saying too.

You cant make feet look picture perfect if those arent the feet that horse needs. Having had a trimmer do this to one of my mares, and watched her go from lovely to handle and sound out on a 2 hr hack we ended up with her becoming v hard to handle re feet and footy. Her foot looked perfect to 99% of people but they wernt for her.
 
Surely though for 3 years the mare wasn't working she was resting so the feet were presumably trimmed or grew as she wandered round the field. which would not be the same IMO to a horse who is in work with a healthy active foot.
I only say this because my youngster had completely mismatched feet as a 3 year old who had been poorly managed & untrimmed. Ater a year of careful & infrequent trims and mainly roadwork, his feet naturally & with a little direction have become a really good healthy pair, some slight boxiness in one, but marginal. I think GG has a point.
When a pony on our yard with poor feet is first shod, by our very good farrier, his feet look a pair. As they grow out - after a month one is looking flat, There's not a huge amount to be done about it, but this mare as shod at the weekend I believe.
I would be concerned about the lack of heel support and about how assymetrical the coronet band is on her sore foot is she were mine.
 
Well the shoes are off. She is walking exactly the same as when they were on, but I guess they need a few days to settle. The plan is to leave her barefoot for a couple of weeks to grow a bit of foot. Then if she's still not sound to put the imprints back on and just pray she keeps them on, or at least if one comes off that she doesn't lose it and set me back a small fortune to replace it with a new one. She lost the last one in the sand turn out. You would think it would be easy enough to find, wouldn't you? But oh no, it's obviously buried really deep. :rolleyes: If, on the other hand, her soundness gradually improves barefoot, then I will order her some boots and keep her barefoot. That would be the easiest.
 
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