S_N
Well-Known Member
What do you think of this for conformation in a broodmare?
- Thread starter S_N
- Start date
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
PMSL! Cracking!
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
I don't think I want to answer, you'll probably say it's worth millions..
With those legs I wouldn't breed from it! (have you added it's back legs to it's front?)
With those legs I wouldn't breed from it! (have you added it's back legs to it's front?)
S_N
Well-Known Member
Blimey HH - you don't ask for much do you? I'll go off and find the back legs for you - and rest assured, she isn't/wasn't a million dollar mare! Lovely head though - but I couldn't get a good shot of that!
S_N
Well-Known Member
Back legs
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
How old is the mare? What work has she done?
The reason I ask is one of mine is over at the knee but is in 20's and had 14+ years of hard jumping career and won a serious amount of money and although still sound is showing alot of wear and tear.
The reason I ask is one of mine is over at the knee but is in 20's and had 14+ years of hard jumping career and won a serious amount of money and although still sound is showing alot of wear and tear.
magic104
Well-Known Member
I did not think being over at the knee was classed as a fault unlike being behind the knee. There have been graded stallions that have been over at the knee, perhaps this has now changed?
Bananaman
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say she was badly over at the knee, it's the angle/length of the pasterns and feet....
I would imagine her fetlocks are on the ground if she goes faster than a walk!
Croup high too......not a great start for a broodmare.
I would imagine her fetlocks are on the ground if she goes faster than a walk!
Croup high too......not a great start for a broodmare.
alicep
Well-Known Member
not a fan of those legs!
but it looks to me that she has a bit of muscle wastage in places too. not that thats conformation as such but prob doesnt help the situation
Damien
Well-Known Member
Hi sportsnight, her conformation is not ideal, her pasterns are sloping, and she is slightly over at knee. The over at the knee trait is often caused in rapidly growing foals when the bones grow at different rate to the soft tissue - ligaments/tendons and can cause the balance of the hoof to change and thus the stance of the foreleg changes with it, in its simplest form we say contracted tendons, some are to a lessser extent than others, so this is one factor I would ignore but would pay particular attention to the foal and monitor closely how it develops. Careful trimming and hoof extensions can do a lot of good to very young foals.
The sloping pasterns may also have been influenced by the development of the hoofs, although we often see this trait as a genetic one with mares and stallions frequently passing it on from one generation to the next. However and again we do not know how she developed as a foal and perhaps lack of or incorrect hoof care could have influenced their development. However we can safely say that she is "short of cannon" so would look for a stallion that adds length to the cannon and also a stallion that has correct pasterns to be on the safe side.
As HG quite rightly points out a horses back can change drastically in time, with work, ageing and foal bearing, which could have caused the sagging through her spine. However this is emphasised by the fact that she is croup high, by looking for a stallion that adds length to the foreleg to try and "build" the foals' front end, and also a stallion that has a strong back just incase the line of the back was innate.
Now whilst you can choose a stallion to try and compensate for these traits you may produce a better foal than the mare but bear in mind that this may not happen as the mares characteristics are said to be passed on in a higher percentage than the sire. Her hind legs from what I can see show a good angle to the hock with good length of cannon and the pasterns also better balanced, so when choosing a stallion you do not want to loose those strengths so look for a stallion that is equally as good if not better. How does she move thorugh her hock? As have noticed that straighter hind legs do not always flex less than well angled hocks, so would focus on how she bends through them, if she is good then great if not look for a stallion that produces good hock activity.
Hope this helps.
The sloping pasterns may also have been influenced by the development of the hoofs, although we often see this trait as a genetic one with mares and stallions frequently passing it on from one generation to the next. However and again we do not know how she developed as a foal and perhaps lack of or incorrect hoof care could have influenced their development. However we can safely say that she is "short of cannon" so would look for a stallion that adds length to the cannon and also a stallion that has correct pasterns to be on the safe side.
As HG quite rightly points out a horses back can change drastically in time, with work, ageing and foal bearing, which could have caused the sagging through her spine. However this is emphasised by the fact that she is croup high, by looking for a stallion that adds length to the foreleg to try and "build" the foals' front end, and also a stallion that has a strong back just incase the line of the back was innate.
Now whilst you can choose a stallion to try and compensate for these traits you may produce a better foal than the mare but bear in mind that this may not happen as the mares characteristics are said to be passed on in a higher percentage than the sire. Her hind legs from what I can see show a good angle to the hock with good length of cannon and the pasterns also better balanced, so when choosing a stallion you do not want to loose those strengths so look for a stallion that is equally as good if not better. How does she move thorugh her hock? As have noticed that straighter hind legs do not always flex less than well angled hocks, so would focus on how she bends through them, if she is good then great if not look for a stallion that produces good hock activity.
Hope this helps.
Rosiebee
Member
Is it possible to say she is croup high if you cant see whether the surface she is stood on is on an angle or not?
Damien
Well-Known Member
Hi rosiebie, the first thing I try and do myself when I'm taking a photo or correcting a photo to make the horse level with the surface is observe the background, I immediately looked at the lines of the stable doors and the levelness of the surface upon which she is standing in the fore pic, and hopefully correctly identified the lines upon which I made my critique, (lord this is sounding pompous
) sorry......
anyway have visiauly rotated the photos both ways to satsify myself when looking at the pics......... now if I used the stable doors as my horizon i would actually have to rotate the horse a few degrees anticlockwise which would emphasise her croup even more. But bear in mind the length of cannon can pinpoint that she is croup high or not unless her hind cannons are the same length or shorter which they don't appear to be.....
for any critique idealy we need to see the whole picture but we were asked to provide a critique of what was presented before us.
for any critique idealy we need to see the whole picture but we were asked to provide a critique of what was presented before us.
sallyf
Well-Known Member
I think when judging conformation of a broodmare you really need to know what the mare is and what the intended offspring is being bred to do.
Obviously if you were looking at breeding a dressage horse this broodmare wouldnt be for you but if she is TB as i suspect and is being used to breed a sprinter then some of her conformation characteristics (sp) are actually desirable.
A sprinter needs short cannon bones and they are often bred to have longer fetlocks as it is supposed to help with speed as indeed is the fact that she is croup high as many sprinters are.
Obviously if you were looking at breeding a dressage horse this broodmare wouldnt be for you but if she is TB as i suspect and is being used to breed a sprinter then some of her conformation characteristics (sp) are actually desirable.
A sprinter needs short cannon bones and they are often bred to have longer fetlocks as it is supposed to help with speed as indeed is the fact that she is croup high as many sprinters are.
S_N
Well-Known Member
Hi Sally!
She is indeed sprinter bred and my goodness does she have a turn of hoof in the field!! She is built like the proverbial brick s*** house too! She is only about 15.2hh and weighs in excess of 600kgs - it's mainly muscle on her backside - not so easy to see in these pics I know. However, she only won 10K and only won once. I can never decide if I like her or not (personality as well as conformation). Personally I don't think I would breed from her, but then she's not mine and never will be, so not my descision.
P.S. she's an 11yo.
She is indeed sprinter bred and my goodness does she have a turn of hoof in the field!! She is built like the proverbial brick s*** house too! She is only about 15.2hh and weighs in excess of 600kgs - it's mainly muscle on her backside - not so easy to see in these pics I know. However, she only won 10K and only won once. I can never decide if I like her or not (personality as well as conformation). Personally I don't think I would breed from her, but then she's not mine and never will be, so not my descision.
P.S. she's an 11yo.
Damien
Well-Known Member
yes good point sallyf, attended a talk by Scotlands leading orthodpeadic surgeons, and he highlighted that conformation is all about balance of the horse for the purpose of which it is intented... agree a longer fetlock is desirable in some horses and can produce a softer ride, but the length of this mares pasterns are not overly long but the angle is perhaps a little collapsed and that is a weakness regardless of wether she be destined for racing or dressage or jumping?
Personally I prefer shorter legged horses for jumping but fashion for the modern sport horse is pushing breeders into having long legged foals that are typy and generally easier to sell, often forgetting that they have to keep those long legs under control under saddle, which in a jump off is not always easy...
If the mare is a sprinter and the owner wishes to breed a sprinter then I guess that would have helped us also, if however the owner is looking to improve on the mare and produce a genrally imporved riding type horse then the above characteristics that I have touched on are those that I would try and improve upon.
Personally I prefer shorter legged horses for jumping but fashion for the modern sport horse is pushing breeders into having long legged foals that are typy and generally easier to sell, often forgetting that they have to keep those long legs under control under saddle, which in a jump off is not always easy...
If the mare is a sprinter and the owner wishes to breed a sprinter then I guess that would have helped us also, if however the owner is looking to improve on the mare and produce a genrally imporved riding type horse then the above characteristics that I have touched on are those that I would try and improve upon.
S_N
Well-Known Member
Hi Opie!
I'm hoping that you don't feel that this thread has led you on a merry dance, as your posts have been extremely informative and I'm sure people have learnt fom them! My main reason for posting these, is that you don't often see such conformation and I thought it would be interesting to share.
I'm hoping that you don't feel that this thread has led you on a merry dance, as your posts have been extremely informative and I'm sure people have learnt fom them! My main reason for posting these, is that you don't often see such conformation and I thought it would be interesting to share.
sallyf
Well-Known Member
SN i think before i made judgement on whether i would breed from her or not i would want to see her in the flesh.
Sometimes a photo just doesnt give you a true picture of how the mare holds herself and how her neck is set on.
Her front legs actually dont bother me that much but then i suppose she is more the sort of mare i am used to seeing and the fact that she is eleven and probably raced at two then had her first foal at 4 means that everything including her legs would have sagged a little.
Actually think she has a good hind leg and it is quite common for these type of race broodmares to go even more croup high as they get older dont forget they are sat on as yearlings so cant really be judged against normal sport horses who are left to grow for much longer.
There skeletons take so much more strain at an early age which must have a bearing on overall conformation.
Sometimes a photo just doesnt give you a true picture of how the mare holds herself and how her neck is set on.
Her front legs actually dont bother me that much but then i suppose she is more the sort of mare i am used to seeing and the fact that she is eleven and probably raced at two then had her first foal at 4 means that everything including her legs would have sagged a little.
Actually think she has a good hind leg and it is quite common for these type of race broodmares to go even more croup high as they get older dont forget they are sat on as yearlings so cant really be judged against normal sport horses who are left to grow for much longer.
There skeletons take so much more strain at an early age which must have a bearing on overall conformation.
Damien
Well-Known Member
neigh bother...........
sallyf
Well-Known Member
What would be interesting though dont you think would be to see this mare and her offspring as well as some others and see what characterisics there offspring had inherited.
It never ceases to amaze me that you can see an average mare that produces fantastic offspring one after another and then you can get the most fabulous mare thats stock are average.
It never ceases to amaze me that you can see an average mare that produces fantastic offspring one after another and then you can get the most fabulous mare thats stock are average.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
Rosiebee
Member
Opie- I chuckled to your reply, I agree with you and some other comments but it is just one of my soap box things!!!
You meet people who see a photo and say look how uphill this horse/foal is and yet you look and the photo has just been rotated etc!!!
springfallstud
Well-Known Member
Can we have a picture to see the whole of her now please
S_N
Well-Known Member
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Can we have a picture to see the whole of her now please
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Not sure if I should to tbh. The forum police will get me - they always do!
Can we have a picture to see the whole of her now please
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Not sure if I should to tbh. The forum police will get me - they always do!