what does a 'modern type' mean

[friesian80]

I know in the past other breeds have been used to introduce "new blood"- i suspect (but don't know!) the leaner more modern friesians are derived from those crosses several generations back- think this is why certain lines of friesians are known to be "hot" too.

Thats what I thought, would explain why certain characteristics like lots of feather and thick long manes can be lost in the more modern friesian. But surely if new blood was introduced at one point then the modern friesian surely isnt a 'pure' friesian?

 

[UnaB]

If you read back, I actually haven't slated the modern types at all.

I didnt say you had


A lot of modern types are very good at what they do, and some are very nice examples. No, they aren't my cup of tea, but neither are a lot of other breeds/types!

I know they're never going to compare to WBs etc- but you made a direct comparison between moderns and baroques under saddle and stated that baroque horses "will never compare", which is what i took offence to.

Have you ridden both types? The paces are very different. The baroques have more "driving" paces and the modern have more "dressage" paces. This is what I have found, and a general consensus amongst most people who have experience of riding both types

Putting ability and talent aside though, my main point, and this applies to all breeds actually, and is what i was referring to when i made my original post, is that what is seen, and has always been seen as "bad" conformation seems to be acceptable in these modern types- friesian or otherwise.

bad conformation is bad conformation no matter what the type of horse is. Remember, the gradings are just a handful of judges opinions. When looking for a stallion to breed a mare to, some common sense is required - looking at performance record, progeny etc, not just grading results

The stallion i was referring to is a previous world champion- was suggesting that if this is what is deemed the best, then these traits are going to get bred in. I'm not saying that all modern types are conformationally rubbish- i was simply pointing out that if a world champ stallion has those traits and it's deemed acceptable for SUCH a high level of achievement, with thousands of mares/year are bred to him, it's encouraging those faults, which in the long term could cause problems in the horse.


He may have just been best of those stallions shown at the stallion show that year. The stallion grading is on more than just basic conformation, temperment, performance, health and progeny are all judged as well

Preferences and personal agendas aside- do you think it's acceptable for a WORLD CHAMPION (ie the absolute very best horse of the breed) to carry those faults?

I havent seen the horse in question, what was his name?

Just an extra note to say as well- i know not all baroques are nice- i've seen some horrible ones!! Same goes for all breeds though, there's nice examples and not so nice examples.

I know in the past other breeds have been used to introduce "new blood"- i suspect (but don't know!) the leaner more modern friesians are derived from those crosses several generations back- think this is why certain lines of friesians are known to be "hot" too.

Lets not forget that not so long ago the friesian breed was almost extinct and other breeds were introduced to produce the baroque type. Efforts have been made to make the horse lighter built since the 1800's so no friesian is "pure" if you look at it like that.

http://www.friesian-equine.co.uk/history-of-friesian-horse.html

However, making the modern type friesian would not need outcrossing at all. You simply need to breed two horses with the desired traits (longer legs, lighter built etc etc) and go from there. It takes many generations to get a uniform "type" with that sort of thing though, i will be very interested to see how the modern type improves over the next 20 years or so, I think it will develop into a wonderful type of horse if bred correctly.

 

[AnnaL]

UnaB- i'm not naming names regarding the stallion- liability etc

 

[friesian80]

Lets not forget that not so long ago the friesian breed was almost extinct and other breeds were introduced to produce the baroque type. Efforts have been made to make the horse lighter built since the 1800's so no friesian is "pure" if you look at it like that.

True

In fact I believe the FPS believe that the more modern build of a friesian these days is a truer expample of the original friesian shape.
I believe the heaviness of the baroque shape was introduced when it was, as it fitted the type of horse ppl needed at that time.

However I do feel every time the friesian is modified you loose a bit more of the true original breeds characteristics, however I guess this is true of every breed which is modernised to suits todays riding disciplines

Does anyne know what breed was introduced to modernise the friesian?

 

[templewood]

Very interesting debate re: Freisians. The same is happening wirh PRE's! They are trying to make them look like WB's. Why! If they want a horse that looks like a WB then buy a WB and breed them instead. We should keep the baroque horses true to type and use them for crossing and improving other breeds, especially WBs! The Spanish have a studbook for CDE's, which are PRE crosses and lovely looking horses they are too. If we loose the original types in the baroque breeds we'll have nothing left to go back to when fashions change again and people want horses that move properly, are sound and conformationally correct!

Sorry to rant!

 

[left rein]

Hi. I'm very tentatively looking at stallions for my mare and many of the studs describe their stallions as a 'modern type'? I've been out of the loop for a very long time and wasn't sure what this meant.

I'm really only looking to breed a foal a decent heritage with as good a temperament (sp) as possible and not really interested in something which is 'fashionable'.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Re MODERN TYPE

This comes from Europe per se, but really means the drive towards lighter (ie more Thoroughbred) more uphill (greater balance with bigger but balanced fronts from the shoulder) and elegant (lighter and off the forehand) moving stock. Dont feel restricted that it applies to Dressage, it doesnt, it also applies to Eventers and Show Jumpers aswell.

So for example, if one was to make a very crude comparison - go and have a look at say Hanoverians or Oldenburg Stallions who stood at stud say thirty years ago, and then have a look at the ones that stand today. There will be a shift in type.

There is one challenge in all of this driver for "lighter/ more modern stock"...ie more TB blood - one s getting closer by genes to a Racehorse in .....so that in increasing the percentage of TB Blood, stock could, and I do stress the word "could" in some cases create stock who become little sharper/more buzzy in their temperament.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule but the nearer you are breeding to racehorse you may well get something a little more lively - but I must say im a huge! TB fan and wouldnt have had great fun owning and Showing them as they are heavenly to work with.


I hope that this helps verfiy things for you.

Best of luck in your search, there are lots of lovely stallions to choose from right here in the UK.

 

[AnnaL]

True

In fact I believe the FPS believe that the more modern build of a friesian these days is a truer expample of the original friesian shape.
I believe the heaviness of the baroque shape was introduced when it was, as it fitted the type of horse ppl needed at that time.

However I do feel every time the friesian is modified you loose a bit more of the true original breeds characteristics, however I guess this is true of every breed which is modernised to suits todays riding disciplines

Does anyne know what breed was introduced to modernise the friesian?

Interesting- maybe "modern" friesians aren't so modern after all!

I believe a lot of iberian blood was used- not sure about any others.

 

[woodlander]

Great take on this Tristar. The modernisation of the warmblood is from the infusion of "blood" - both Thoroughbred, Trakehner and Anglo Arab. The task is to lengthen the limbs, increase the responsiveness (ridability) and the stamina. It should not mean a crazy or difficult horse but should actually improve the temperament AND scope for any sport. This infusion of blood is also expected, with selected stallions, to improve the head neck connection and thr whither - all of which is not required with a log puller!

 

[SwingHorse]

Very interesting debate re: Freisians. The same is happening wirh PRE's! They are trying to make them look like WB's. Why! If they want a horse that looks like a WB then buy a WB and breed them instead. We should keep the baroque horses true to type and use them for crossing and improving other breeds, especially WBs! The Spanish have a studbook for CDE's, which are PRE crosses and lovely looking horses they are too. If we loose the original types in the baroque breeds we'll have nothing left to go back to when fashions change again and people want horses that move properly, are sound and conformationally correct!

Sorry to rant!

Repeating this because as a PRE enthusiast I think it's worth saying again! We aim to breed baroque types, not just PREs but Friesians as well, because if it ain't broke, why fix it?! Our boys consistently win prizes, nationally and internationally, against more modern types so at least the USA hasn't gone totally crazy yet!

 

[UnaB]

True

In fact I believe the FPS believe that the more modern build of a friesian these days is a truer expample of the original friesian shape.
I believe the heaviness of the baroque shape was introduced when it was, as it fitted the type of horse ppl needed at that time.

However I do feel every time the friesian is modified you loose a bit more of the true original breeds characteristics, however I guess this is true of every breed which is modernised to suits todays riding disciplines

Does anyne know what breed was introduced to modernise the friesian?

Sorry if im repeating anyone, just scan read the replies as I have to run off to feed the poorly pup in a sec...!!

The andalusian was introduced to modernise.

I personally love both types equally and can see the wonderful qualities of both (when bred correctly of course), I would happily make stable room for either type

 

[Alexart]

There are lots of websites who have friesians that have a vague summary of the history of the breed - most have no clue and are just waffle and have done little research so are to be taken with a pinch of salt! One of the more accurate friesian histories is - http://www.fhana.com/timeline/

Regarding the friesian ancestry - they used to be used as a trotting horse at the beginning of the 1800's - this was when crossbreeding was all the rage and all sorts of breeds were used to refine the dutch farm horses.
Then the breed was used primarily as a farm horse and the heavier baroque and the classical types were the norm and what was sought after - this was when they closed the stud book - no new blood. Andalusian/arab blood etc was added hundreds of years ago ie 1500 and before - not recently - and the type of andi used would have been the short compact with loads of hair types not the WB type of today.
Also the breed was basically founded on 3 related stallions - all of which were known even at the time to be carrying serious genetic problems like dwarfism and hydrocephaly yet are the foundations of the breed and were often crossed to their own daughters etc - they hoped to be able to breed the problems out - D'OH!!!! They were more concerned with the correct colour than health!!

The modern type - and I'm talking the trend in the last 20 yrs or so - has been for breeding what used to be termed as blood weeds - ie. horses that were light framed etc and not up to the original breed characteristics, these are now the trend as uses of the breed have changed and they want to keep up with fashion so want horses that look like warmbloods - and as someone else said if you want a WB why not buy one instead of breeding a chunky baroque horse into one!!
The trouble also is the lines that produce the modern types are all closely linked so more inbreeding has to occur. The inbreeding percentages are only based on 3 generations - they do not change the fact the breed has a tiny gene pool and just makes breeders feel better but doesn't change the facts if you go back a few more generations the inbreeding is very scary!!!
This probably explains the recent temperament change from a quiet nature to a more highly strung nature which some lines do have a problems with but are sought after for the show ring as they are more flashy to watch.
We gave up trying to breed the baroque type as every mare that we liked that was just right conformationally was related closely to our stallion - so no point! - plus the fact they are soooo expensive to breed as they have so many problems!!

The breed are also now primarily bred for the show ring, like so many other breeds, so the trot is the be all and end all - often at the expense of good conformation - ie conformation that can be driven or ridden and not have soundness issues at a young age. Stallions are shown at a very young age when they are still very much bum high, so they find it hard to collect themselves to do the high stepping trot - which by the way is enhanced using training aids - hence the reason all stallions for grading must be sent to holland! So their answer to that was to breed a longer back so the young horse can hollow it to enable them to bring up the forehand to the max - looks pretty but the animal finds it hard to collect enough to carry a rider when it matures. Also the extra concussion caused by doing that trot repeatedly causes joint problems, plus they can't do the pace under saddle, and the other paces are suffering as a result - they basically want them to move like a hackney!

I don't understand your post Ischa but from the gist of it you are on about the genetic problems - they affect ALL friesians regardless of modern or baroque type. Fertility, soundness and mortality are the main problems affecting the breed and they will not go away, unless new blood is added or the breed gets to the point where they are all infertile - why do you think alot of the approved stallions are not available via AI? - their tadpoles don't freeze and they have low sperm counts!
The genetic problems are a pain especially when you have spent 10 grand on a horse and it drops dead from a genetic weakness - been there done that twice and it is heartbreaking, and I know of at least 12 others who have lost their friesians from similar problems that were established at time of death - others never had a PM just a vets opinion so there are lots more - another reason I am reluctant to breed pure again!

A good breeding program to me is one that every year the number of approved stallions goes up as the population increases - which it does substantially every year - 1000's are bred in holland every year alone - yet the number of stallions approved stays the same ie only 2 or 3 out of around 10 every year, most of those fail on offspring/soundness issues ie OCD/stamina problems/fertility, and if you look at the fertility results they are decreasing every year - that to me is not a successful breeding program and is also the mark of a studbook that wants total control and elitism - not a good thing!
Plus alot of the modern type horses are failing to produce good quality offspring - a couple of the top winning stallys have had very poor offspring results with alot of weak backs, weak backends and sickle hocks being the main problems. I always think a friesian should look good even if you shaved all it's mane, feathers and tail off and dyed it another colour - so many are just a black horses with hair and a pedigree paper - yet people are often fooled just because it is black and will pay!!

Why do you think the arabo friesian came about? - top drivers were fed up with the stamina issues of the friesian - they are prone to something called Equine polysaccharide storage myopathy which has been corrected by adding very select arab blood to increase stamina and it has worked, and through careful outcrossing it has resulted in a horse that looks like a modern friesian without all the issues - so I'm not so sure why the dutch are so anal about 'keeping the breed pure' - as how do they think the breed arrived in the first place?!! I'm all for selective andalusian blood added as well as arab blood put back into the breed to help make the breed healthier, if I had 20 grand spare I'd buy a very nice andi mare and put it to my boy and go from there - *keeps checking lottery tickets*!!!

So it's not a question of whos horse is better than who's its a question of good conformation to make the horses job easier and it last longer doing the job it was intended for - yes there are nice modern types about and some do pass those qualities on but they are few and far between - but the majority are poorly put together blood weeds - the stallion I used as an example above is one of THE most fashionable stallions used by mare owners, look at his back, backend and hocks!

I know it has been happening to the spanish breeds amongst others too - they are breeding for a WB look-a-like when they were originally nice short compact little horses which are now so hard to find. I agree with Woodlander - the warmbloods themselves are different as they add new WB types or TB blood to improve things which I think is why they do so well at what they are aimed for as they are not totally closing the gene pools. All horses should really move uphill - important for any discipline as it frees the forehand and enables the horse to drive from behind - it is not just a thing developed in the modern types - if a horse is compact it can collect itself adequately to do that - a long backed horse would struggle regardless of the quality of its shoulder.
It would be like someone saying I actually want my shire horses to become eventers and then breeding them to look like one without adding any new genetics - it's just silly!!!!

 

[friesian80]

What an interesting read Alex, ive saved the link to my favourites.
Its appauling how they are bred for the insignificant features such as colour and high knee action, leaving things like confirmation and temperamant to be dismissed as less important.

What training aids do they use to give the high step in holland?

I have to say I totally agree with your opinion that a friesian should be a good stamp of the breed, ie shave it and change its colour and you should still be able to see the qualities a friesian carries. I see so many friesians these days which look no different to a black WB with a bit more feather. It seems if it comes with a piece of paper which states its approved by the FPS then ppl are willing to pay way way more for it regardless of its potential confirmational and breeding problems.

I have looked at many friesian breeding websites and you will usually find they state 'this horses is true to the breed with a long flowing mane and a blue/black colour which will not fade in the sun'.
Erm to be honest Id like to be reasured the horse has good confirmation and a low inbreed percentage and has a calm and kind nature!
Its a very contraversial issue and I know ppl have their own opinions but I have to say I agree with what youve said!
I also have no problem with crossing the breed, carefully selecting something that will compiment the friesian and perhaps improve parts of it which lacks quality, IMO that is how you should get a 'modern' friesian instead of modifying the true shape and quality of a pure friesian.

 

[tristar]

i think i will keep well away from friesians after reading all that,! i was talking to a dutch guy who breeds and sells them he said they are the shetlands of the horse world, and when i said i fancied crossing them to see what comes out he he said he would be banned from the breed society if he did that!
i feel that within any breed there are different types or families that compose the whole breed and bring forth a pools of genes from which come horses with different talents and qualities, they should'nt be all uniform one type, the arab horse is a good example of what i mean, the large plainer headed racing types and the smaller dished headed pony types can look very different obviously yet they are still pure to the stud book, just different strains, not sure but i think there are 7 main strains and 40 substrains, or families, this can only be good for any breed, to have diversity, and i am not talking here about show horses or fashionable breeding but how the breed was evolved in the desert over many centuries.
the baroque iberian or freisian, i've only met a few, is a horse of certain conformation which gives it natural apptitude in the high school movements, because the shorter back make stepping under the body mass easier, it was the first thing i noticed when i rode my andalu cross for the first time, but is true collection and ability to extend or wow the judges truly possible in one horse or are we just asking to much?

 

[UnaB]

The problem is with "proving" the friesian history, unfortunately there are many different accounts of how they were developed that there is no way of telling for sure which account is the true one, or even if any of them are.

 

[UnaB]

i think i will keep well away from friesians after reading all that,!

Its really not as bad as being made out and they are a fantastic breed and the more people who get out there competing and riding them the better for the breed The problem is, often a lot of the rubbish horses get sold out of Holland, they keep the best for themselves. When I was searching for one I was quite bluntly told that they sell the "runts" to England cos people over here dont know the difference between a good and a bad one! lol Nice huh??! There are enough people breeding good quality friesians from approved stallions for there to be a nice selection of all types of friesians to suit anyone Stallion approval includes an extensive veterinary examination so (in theory) the approved stallions should be very sound, which is one reason I wanted a friesian from an approved stallion as there are some problems in the breed. Obviously, like any breed its no guarantee, there can always be problems due to underlying problems or environmental issues, but its a step in the right direction. There are some lovely unapproved stallions, its a VERY expensive process to get a horse approved so a lot of breeders dont bother (or cant) so it doesnt always tie in that the approved ones are better but you'd have to be very careful when choosing to breed to, or buy from an unapproved stallion. Temperments also vary throughout the breed and theres certainly some lines and stallions I wouldnt go near with a barge pole lol.

 

[Tiny Fluffy Coblet]

@UnaB - I wasn't refering to fresians there - as stated in my post it was in reference to the 'modern' halter type arabs. I must have missed the specific breed related question in the OP I though it was asking for general opinions/comments on modern vs 'old' types in breed as opposed to fresians in particular.

 

[UnaB]

@UnaB - I wasn't refering to fresians there - as stated in my post it was in reference to the 'modern' halter type arabs. I must have missed the specific breed related question in the OP I though it was asking for general opinions/comments on modern vs 'old' types in breed as opposed to fresians in particular.

Oh... You said you would be avoiding friesians so I assumed you were referring to friesians... lol!

 

[Alexart]

Friesian80 - scroll to the bottom of this link and you'll see how they train stallions for the keurings - http://www.nobynas.se/articles.htm - not great if you are a mare owner thinking a stallion will pass on this fancy trot!!
They still do it now as so much money is involved with these animals, I spoke to a lady not long ago about an approved stallion that was available for loan for one breeding season - £40,000 and they got it too - gives you some idea of how many mares this stallion needs to cover just to break even, imagine how much they sell for!!

 

[friesian80]

Friesian80 - scroll to the bottom of this link and you'll see how they train stallions for the keurings - http://www.nobynas.se/articles.htm - not great if you are a mare owner thinking a stallion will pass on this fancy trot!!
They still do it now as so much money is involved with these animals, I spoke to a lady not long ago about an approved stallion that was available for loan for one breeding season - £40,000 and they got it too - gives you some idea of how many mares this stallion needs to cover just to break even, imagine how much they sell for!!

Totally disguisted by the article in the link, I had no idea this is how they achieve the high step and have to say I did in fact think that stallions naturally had the high step (I feel rather guliable now )
Ive often watched clips of friesian stallions at the gradings and been mesmerised by their beauty and impressive movement, now I will watch in pity for the poor animal who has in fact been forced into this highly unatural and probably damaging outline.
Do you think the majority of graded stallions in Holland are trained this way? Id love to think there are only a few who are sujected to these methods but fear that probably isnt the case

 

[UnaB]

Totally disguisted by the article in the link, I had no idea this is how they achieve the high step and have to say I did in fact think that stallions naturally had the high step (I feel rather guliable now )
Ive often watched clips of friesian stallions at the gradings and been mesmerised by their beauty and impressive movement, now I will watch in pity for the poor animal who has in fact been forced into this highly unatural and probably damaging outline.
Do you think the majority of graded stallions in Holland are trained this way? Id love to think there are only a few who are sujected to these methods but fear that probably isnt the case

Dont know about the stallions, I fear a fair few are trained that way But just thought i'd mention (without naming names) that I was advised to put weighted shoes and leaded boots on my TWO year old mare for her gradings to give her higher knee action

I do wonder if these sort of practices are the reasons for a lot of the unsoundness in later life. Una doesnt have the very extravagant knee action, but she certainly has a flashy enough trot to be acceptable for a friesian without having to risk damaging her legs It really put me off the whole grading process, but then, there are an awful lot of people who just present their horses as they are and do very well too

 

[friesian80]

Dont know about the stallions, I fear a fair few are trained that way But just thought i'd mention (without naming names) that I was advised to put weighted shoes and leaded boots on my TWO year old mare for her gradings to give her higher knee action

I do wonder if these sort of practices are the reasons for a lot of the unsoundness in later life. Una doesnt have the very extravagant knee action, but she certainly has a flashy enough trot to be acceptable for a friesian without having to risk damaging her legs It really put me off the whole grading process, but then, there are an awful lot of people who just present their horses as they are and do very well too

I would take a guess that sort of practise could lead to problems in later life to joints etc, such a shame as the friesians natural paces are beautiful without emphisising.

 

[Tiny Fluffy Coblet]

wow, that is horrible. I love a flashy trot but those up in front, no hind action, freaky hollow trotting effects are ikky.

 

[UnaB]

I would take a guess that sort of practise could lead to problems in later life to joints etc, such a shame as the friesians natural paces are beautiful without emphisising.

I would think so considering starting it so early in life I know when i was jumping ponies it was fairly common practice to have leaded boots on to make them snap their legs up higher over the fences so they dont hit the poles. I know of a few who were trained like that who went on to have leg/tendon injuries - no way of proving the connection but it seems likely.

I much prefer the natural looking trot myself anyway, the REALLY high knee action looks like it would be very uncomfortable to ride. My Una picks her knees up much higher than the average horse, but probably no where near high enough for some of the friesian folk

 

[templewood]

i the baroque iberian or freisian, i've only met a few, is a horse of certain conformation which gives it natural apptitude in the high school movements, because the shorter back make stepping under the body mass easier, it was the first thing i noticed when i rode my andalu cross for the first time, but is true collection and ability to extend or wow the judges truly possible in one horse or are we just asking to much?

I think you've hit the nail on the head! To get the long paces of the WB's, you need a long back, which means lack of ability to collect. Few WBs, even at top level can collect properly. They don't 'sit' and their backs are hollow, not rounded under their riders. Surely this defeats the whole purpose of dressage, which is to produce a horse that is collected and light, making it easy to ride. I'm always hearing about people that can't sit to their horses enormous trots. How is this a riding horse? 'They make fantastic showjumpers, but in the quest for an all round 'sport horse' something had to give. Some of the modern PRE's are also losing the ability to collect, due to being bred with long backs to get WB movement. Quite often, in the showring, the ones who win the movement class are different to the conformation winners, usually being marked down on their backs.
Long, weak backs are a conformational fault and shouldn't be deliberately bred into any
breed.