What exactly is parelli, and why does everyone seem to hate it?

[just-me]

Did you happen to see the documentary about Buck Brannaman where the insane Stud took a chunk out of his partners head?

That was a serioulsy tragic story and the women who owned him was beyond deluded.

Yes, I saw the documentary. The sound his head made was the most shocking!
It was tragic but it seemed pts really was the only option

 

[Karran]

I saw a pp documentary where they were making the horses and riders canter down a slope and then skid to a halt. (Scooch mountain). It seemed a pointlessly dangerous activity to me. Admittedly I missed the explaination of why this was a good thing. But one horse fell with its rider and pp just stood and critised the clearly frightened rider about how it was her fault.
I'd never heard of the catwalk or other incidents before this but the way that he treated that poor rider put me off the methods completely.

 

[Kobie]

Catwalk was a stallion of Robert Whitaker that PP beat into submission to get a bridle on, utterly vile and sickening.

 

[jaquelin]

The origins of both Parelli and Monty Roberts are from an obsolete North American system where horses would be kept in the wild and then brought in with a minimum of handling and then "broken" to ride. The original system, which was I think Spanish in origin was very tough and used total submission. It was effective up to a point. Some of the cowboys involved realised that traditional breaking created problem horses and came up with an alternative approach, based on animal behaviour. I think Monty Roberts is mostly based on that, and its effectiveness is around taking an untamed, semi-feral horse and turning it into a rideable creature who trusts its rider.
Getting a horse from that point to classical riding is an different story, and I don't think either Parelli or Roberts are useful for that.
My issue would be that horses in Europe and in North America now are not kept like that; most of them are exposed to humans from birth, and they are not kept in semi-feral herds. So the requirement for either "breaking" or gentling the Roberts/Parelli way is sort of pointless. It appears to work when you have a problem horse and I think using animal behaviour techniques is great to sort out problems, many of which are issues of dominance, and owners not being clear about who is in charge. I used an animal behaviourist to help my horse tolerate clipping which helped a lot and I learned a lot from it , such as: don't stare at your horse, it makes them nervous. But I wouldn't pay a lot of money for a course. I pay plenty to instructors in jumping & dressage and Parelli, etc can't help in those areas.

 

[millikins]

What happened about Catwalk, why didn't the Whitackers step in and stop it?

 

[just-me]

I wouldn't pay a lot of money for a course. I pay plenty to instructors in jumping & dressage and Parelli, etc can't help in those areas.

Groundwork makes a huge difference to them under saddle. Its not just nh that value groundwork either the spanish riding school are definitely classical!

 

[HeatherAnn]

Three words about why I hate parelli: Wiggle wiggle snap.

 

[Partoow]

For those that think parrelli is ' kind' then remember the old trick of taking a t towel and flicking it ( my brother used to do this to me and it blooming hurt!) across you legs or why a whip cracks, then take one long rope with heavey clasp attached to a horses head and then flick the rope! The leverage on the c1 and c2 ( the poll) is horrific, if you think that's human you are deluded.
I really couldn't care less if you want to waste your money on carrot sticks et al but I detest the dressing up of brutality of this system as a kind way to get the confidence of your horse
It's no wonder this question gets so passionate in it's replies.

 

[_April_]

I'm mixed. I think parts of it are ok and parts of it are utter tosh.

I have done a little of it with our 27yo TB (who has been retired over 10 years now!). It gives her something to do which is nice for her. Though its all about the food reward, thats her only motivation!

I have done a tiny bit with Tara my younger TB, she picks it up fast and it is fun to do the freestyle stuff; but to be blunt - she is a sensitive soul and moves away/responds from me at a word or slight touch.
I do not want to waggle ropes at her or get into a debate over something that will have no real practical benefit - she is already well mannered and sensible.


Oh and agree the Catwalk thing is disgusting. I couldnt brush or wash T's ears for ages when I bought her (it was even noted on her vetting that ears could not be examined!) but just persevered gently and now she is fine.

 

[LauraWheeler]

If you look for it on youtube you will see some stunning inspiring clips of what can be achieved using Parelli methods as well as the clips that people have mentioned here.

There are also many stunning inspiring clips of what can be achieved without using Parelli.

I bought my pony Herbie from a parelli home. Many on here know about him but for those who don't. His last owner bought him for £1500. She spent 6 months doing Parelli with him (With a proper trainer) and the end result was an agressive dangorous pony! She sold him to me for £550 inclu all tack and rugs (the saddle was worth £400 on it's own!)
Anyway I've made my Views on Parelli quite clear on here time after time. I have seen the "amazing" results some people can achieve with Parelli (although knowing how it is achieved i'm not all that amazed) I have also seen when it goes horrably wrong. The damage that can be done. As with any method it will not work with every horses nomatter what the Parelli people say. Every horse is an indervidule. Besides it wouldn't do there marketing campain any good if they showed you the horses like Herbie who were messed up by there method would it
Here are a couple of videos of Herbie and I after I had done lots of work with him to undo all that damage.
[youtube]itkg_b1V2UM[/youtube]

[youtube]anJD7BPzC20[/youtube]

 

[Silent Knight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

Pat parelli shows his true unedited colours. If you think tthis is natural horsemanship then you shouldn't really be owning and animal, nevermind a horse

 

[fburton]

Personally don't like Parelli as I've seen him hobble a horse and force it to the ground just so that he could touch his head - apparently this would cure the horse of it's head shyness (I think not).

Do you mind if I ask when and where this was?

Catwalk was a stallion of Robert Whitaker that PP beat into submission to get a bridle on, utterly vile and sickening.

I think saying Catwalk was "beat into submission" is exaggerating somewhat. However, the methods used on him in the demo were certainly unnatural and (imo) went against the spirit of natural horsemanship. To me it seemed a perverse approach to dealing with headshyness, but then Pat may have been motivated by his belief in the importance of "getting respect" above all else. Watching them use ropes to struggle against Catwalk left a nasty taste in the mouth.

 

[QueenOfCadence]

not sure fburton . Will have to look around on youtube again to find it - will quickly see if I can't spot it (will definitely post a link to it if I do)

 

[team barney]

One of the tamer videos...

http://youtu.be/7ueprRcH5B4

still a disgusting display of "horsemanship"

Parelli in is true form (how it is practised by it's founders) is perfect for creating an unthinking emotionless robot who would walk into a wall if you pointed him/her in that direction with the command to walk forward, and who would walk of a cliff if asked without a single question.

 

[9tails]

That said, last week I saw PP do some truly beautiful work with a TB at an English demo, broadcast on H&C last week (Parelli Masterclass)

Pat did that work over 3 years ago, if you're talking about the chestnut showjumper with the young lad owner. For some time now, the Parellis have believed their own hype and lost their feel. Not that Linda had any in the first place.

 

[jaquelin]

Having just watched a couple of the videos, I am a little surprised as he breaks some of the basic rules of "natural" ( e.g & just sensible) horsemanship. He stands facing the horse, which a horse as prey animal senses as threatening and both he and his assistant stare at the horse a lot which has the same impact. One of the best things I learned from natural practitioners is not to do either of those things. Also to get horse to lower head, sign of relaxation.
It does make me wonder and to me he is sooo cowboy! Not a good trait in my book!

 

[rhino]

Having just watched a couple of the videos, I am a little surprised as he breaks some of the basic rules of "natural" ( e.g & just sensible) horsemanship. He stands facing the horse, which a horse as prey animal senses as threatening and both he and his assistant stare at the horse a lot which has the same impact. One of the best things I learned from natural practitioners is not to do either of those things. Also to get horse to lower head, sign of relaxation.
It does make me wonder and to me he is sooo cowboy! Not a good trait in my book!

They also advocate having a horse behind you (and some way behind!) when leading, i.e. giving them time to have a jolly good run up before they flatten you!

 

[Marydoll]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

Pat parelli shows his true unedited colours. If you think tthis is natural horsemanship then you shouldn't really be owning and animal, nevermind a horse

Wouldnt let them near any of my horses, pratt parelli or the other one.
Where were the whitakers when this was going on ?
Im surprised that none of them stepped in to stop it.

 

[Queenbee]

They also advocate having a horse behind you (and some way behind!) when leading, i.e. giving them time to have a jolly good run up before they flatten you!

Yes, this is so blooming stupid, ben has a tendency to try and fall behind ebony when I am leading them out together, the other day the horses in the other field came cantering to the fence, cue ben trying to make a pancake out of me He is now walking alongside me, he still tries to fall back but I won't let him, sometimes 'natural' is not best!

 

[MagicMelon]

Its very Americanized. I hate all the "if you dont do parelli, you'll never understand your horse" rubbish they come out with regularly. I think their methods are pretty odd and their 'games' are quite frankly a waste of time. The Parelli woman also got some very bad press in a video where she was seen slapping a leadrope side to side (with a very large clip on it so it smacked the horse in the face) on a very scared, confused looking horse. There's nothing natural about it. I also believe Mr Parelli himself got bad press when he pretty much forced a bridle onto one of the Whitakers bridle-shy horses... need I say more?! Its all just a marketing ploy - if you look into it, its all "buy this carrot stick for £100, but wait you must then also buy this blah blah and blah blah for £300"). Monty Roberts IMO is to be respected as he's actually worked with wild horses - he understands how they think and doesn't do anything fancy. I've used his "join-up" method several times with my horses in the past with success.

Common sense IMO is all thats needed when dealing with horses. Just because I don't do parelli, doesn't mean I beat my horses up or force them into things.

 

[sandi_84]

Just watched what was admittedly a pretty bad quality video on youtube of the catwalk bridle incident and that looked to me like a very scared horse who was just getting more scared by the things the parellis were doing to him. I too would like to know what the whittakers thought about this display that obviously went badly wrong. Forcing any animal to do something it is frightened of does not make the problem go away but only makes it worse. Does anyone know if they commented on it? Also does anyone know what other professional trainers etc think of the parelli methods?
Tbh I would agree with a lot of people on this particular post that common sense, patience and reward for good behaviour is the way forward and anything that scares the horse sensless or causes pain is only going to make the situation worse for the horse and dangerous for the rider and is a definate no no! Which in itself seems like common sense in itself to me.
Having no knowledge of parelli I can't really comment on their practices but I would say hitting or constraining an already frightened horse is not in any way shape or form acceptible to me. Frankly any animal that is subjegated through fear and pain should be taken away from the people visiting such abuse on it and they should have the crap scared out of them and be subjected to pain themselves to see how they like it! Any form of animal abuse should never be tolerated!

 

[team barney]

Also does anyone know what other professional trainers etc think of the parelli methods?

I have spoken to many well respected and well know horsemen whose opinion of Parelli is one of disgust, however for want of earning a living they are unprepared to freely admit their opinions. Partly because they have seen the damage that can be achieved when they do (Parelli has a lot of money behind it's marketing force), and partly because of the abuse they receive from the followers of the Parelli method.

 

[fburton]

I too would like to know what the whittakers thought about this display that obviously went badly wrong. Forcing any animal to do something it is frightened of does not make the problem go away but only makes it worse. Does anyone know if they commented on it?

As far as I know, they haven't issued any direct public statement about what Pat Parelli did to Catwalk except that he said (to H&H presumably) "he felt the situation had perhaps been blown out of proportion".

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/300317.html

If you read the "Open Letter from Pat Parelli" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzOqBZRjYoY), it was stated that:

"... Catwalk is being bridled easier than ever and without incident and that he is doing his best jumping ever according to his owners."

which at least suggests that they were not unhappy with the outcome. I think Robert Whitaker must have been at least fairly comfortable with the Parelli methods to allow his stallion to be used in the demo. Assuming that is the case, it would be a bit odd if he turned round and said anything negative about what was done. After all, Pat Parelli should know what he is doing and be the best person to do it, right?

 

[sandi_84]

I have spoken to many well respected and well know horsemen whose opinion of Parelli is one of disgust, however for want of earning a living they are unprepared to freely admit their opinions. Partly because they have seen the damage that can be achieved when they do (Parelli has a lot of money behind it's marketing force), and partly because of the abuse they receive from the followers of the Parelli method.

Hmm I can understand why the lesser known people might not speak out but if the more well known proffessionals feel so strongly about it and think that what he does is abusive people should speak out and have it stopped. Hope that doesn't make me sound like an a**hole Don't want to cause offense to anyone but animal cruelty makes me really angry and it did seem to me that what he did to catwalk was cruel.

As far as I know, they haven't issued any direct public statement about what Pat Parelli did to Catwalk except that he said (to H&H presumably) "he felt the situation had perhaps been blown out of proportion".

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/300317.html

If you read the "Open Letter from Pat Parelli" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzOqBZRjYoY), it was stated that:

"... Catwalk is being bridled easier than ever and without incident and that he is doing his best jumping ever according to his owners."

which at least suggests that they were not unhappy with the outcome. I think Robert Whitaker must have been at least fairly comfortable with the Parelli methods to allow his stallion to be used in the demo. Assuming that is the case, it would be a bit odd if he turned round and said anything negative about what was done. After all, Pat Parelli should know what he is doing and be the best person to do it, right?[/QUOTE

I had a look at the open letter thing and thought that it seemed very "damage controll PR" stuff with lots of pacifying statements carefully thought out to make you think "well maybe i didn't understand what i really saw" but personally i think the footage speaks for itself.

 

[team barney]

Hmm I can understand why the lesser known people might not speak out but if the more well known proffessionals feel so strongly about it and think that what he does is abusive people should speak out and have it stopped. Hope that doesn't make me sound like an a**hole Don't want to cause offense to anyone but animal cruelty makes me really angry and it did seem to me that what he did to catwalk was cruel.

It doesn't make you sound like an ******* in the slightest. I agree with your sentiments entirely, but knowing the abuse one of these people received from Parelli followers - before any open statements had even been made - I do understand them wanting to protect their livelihoods.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Parelli spend a lot of money on advertising which is why they are the shag buddies of the equestrian media.

 

[sandi_84]

I agree with your sentiments entirely, but knowing the abuse one of these people received from Parelli followers - before any open statements had even been made - I do understand them wanting to protect their livelihoods.

I will never understand people who blindly follow and advocate the behaviour shown in the video I watched and I also think it's disgusting they would verbally abuse people because of a difference of opinion.
Mind you it all comes back to the old adage of "wouldn't it be nice if everyone were nice" and then we probably wouldn't have all got into this discussion huh?

In the process of reading the thread "Parelli demon on robert whittakers stallion stoneleigh friday 9th... anyone else bs" and the parelli's posted a statement on their website but when i tried to click the link to see what guff they came out with to explain away their actions i got a page saying "access denied, you are not authorised to access this page" hmm... either it's been taken down or you have to register to read it. Either way i'm not overly chuffed with that

 

[tazzle]

I am not a parelli follower ( despite owning a rope halter ... oh and one of them sticks-but-not-orange with a string so what I will say from now on is not a defense of Mrs and Mrs Parelli more just a try at looking at what has been said here in a logical manner as I think that some of the reasons given for not liking the system "parelli" uses can apply to other methods too.

I agree wholeheartedly with sandis post and it makes some points that say things I was going to so if I may quote it sandi not as a reply to you as such but to illustrate issues

Just watched what was admittedly a pretty bad quality video on youtube of the catwalk bridle incident and that looked to me like a very scared horse who was just getting more scared by the things the parellis were doing to him. I too would like to know what the whittakers thought about this display that obviously went badly wrong. Forcing any animal to do something it is frightened of does not make the problem go away but only makes it worse.

Definately ... but one can see examples that one could define as this every week on here from "mainstream" riders following "mainstream" methods ( eg people advising that horses napping or refusing to jump be given a "good whack") ...... or using a "stronger bit" if the horse is evading the aids etc . In this video they were indeed using the same principles of upping the "pressure" ...........but its not confined to parelli !


Does anyone know if they commented on it? Also does anyone know what other professional trainers etc think of the parelli methods?
Tbh I would agree with a lot of people on this particular post that common sense, patience and reward for good behaviour is the way forward and anything that scares the horse sensless or causes pain is only going to make the situation worse for the horse and dangerous for the rider and is a definate no no! Which in itself seems like common sense in itself to me.

Common sense is a rather variably defined state ..... eg it makes common sense to me to have ones horse listening and in a calm state before going out onto roads......... and to habituate it to things so we dont have to ask other people to stop doing everyday actions cause they might scare a horse. Others, by their actions and words, do not agree this is necessary Some people also find it acceptable to hit a horse with a whip if it does not jump a fence and use lunge whips to ask ( and tell) a horse to go round in a circle What is so different to what NH asks with a stick and string

It seems illogical to condemn a whole bunch of people based on one piece of equipment when it can be used so differently depending on the hands and brain behind it. ....... both the lunge whip and the stick can be used abusively, heavily or lightly or just as a cue.

Having no knowledge of parelli I can't really comment on their practices but I would say hitting or constraining an already frightened horse is not in any way shape or form acceptible to me.


Totally agree ...... it is easy to pick on the given examples (and they are indeed dreadful) but to say that all NH is brutal or cruel or wrong because of one trainer is like an observer that looks at a "famous olympic level dressage rider" that uses rolkur as a training / warm up technique and saying that everyone that does dressage is cruel and the whole system is bad. . Observers and aspiring exponenents of both diciplines will foello the ones who "win" .. I do not aspire to either


Frankly any animal that is subjegated through fear and pain should be taken away from the people visiting such abuse on it and they should have the crap scared out of them and be subjected to pain themselves to see how they like it! Any form of animal abuse should never be tolerated!

This can occur in ANY system of training...... even the traditional / common sense / western etc etc etc




I think that some of the other reasons given also do not apply just to parelli and are not a reason not to choose an NH approach

eg the leading issue..... saying that leading from the front is "blooming stoopid" ...... well no more stoopid that any other place imo . I "lead" my horses from any position and trust that as long as they are not about to actually be eaten by something I am as safe in front as I am at the shoulder or behind them. If they are that upset then I can be just as easly be leapt upon, kicked or bitten from other positions. Oh and in Trec one of the obstacles is to lead a horse from in front ( handy on narrow tracks). Also with driven horses the groom has to stand in front of them when the carriage is stationery . It is good to be able to trust ones horse and stand anywhere with them

So its not a reason to ditch a training system


so I guess OP....... maybe best to look for yourself at what your local trainer is doing and how she and her horses are with each other...... if you like what you see and hear then look into it more. Ask why she does what she does and if it makes sense to you then go for it and maybe you can just take the bits you like..... you dont have to have a clip on the halter and go to level 4 pressure with your horse..... you dont have to get the horse out of your space if you are happy with him there ( I hated seeing horses being elbowed in the face ) ..... but as you have discovered some of the ideas aws quite useful

 

[sandi_84]

tazzle, I'm feeling really tired today so please excuse me if i get this a bit wrong, like you this is not a rebuke just a widening of the disscussion ...

Definately ... but one can see examples that one could define as this every week on here from "mainstream" riders following "mainstream" methods ( eg people advising that horses napping or refusing to jump be given a "good whack") ...... or using a "stronger bit" if the horse is evading the aids etc . In this video they were indeed using the same principles of upping the "pressure" ...........but its not confined to parelli !


That is what I mean, for example I recently was floored by my sisters horse when he ran out of the approach at a jump unexpectedly - this was my fault anyway but the point is - instead of getting angry at him (for something that was clearly my fault) I took another go at it in trot and he was clearly scared and ran out again so I then took him over it (it was a teeny tiny jump but with big scary yellow wings!) both ways at a relaxed walk allowing him to approach at his own pace and letting him take a good look at it to see that it really wasn't the monster he thought it was. After this I retried it in trot and he popped over it no bother at all. I figured out that he was afraid rather than being cheeky and it was a no whips required moment I do believe that a whip may be used as a back up to aides but only a light touch is needed, you do not need to batter your horse to make it do what you want and if a person is whacking away there is something seriously wrong.

it makes common sense to me to have ones horse listening and in a calm state before going out onto roads......... and to habituate it to things so we dont have to ask other people to stop doing everyday actions cause they might scare a horse.


I totally agree with this statement, a horse in a calm state before doing anything with it seems like (arrg that word again!) common sense and habitualising it with various things so life around the yard can go on as normal is also the dreaded C- word to me ha ha!

Others, by their actions and words, do not agree this is necessary Some people also find it acceptable to hit a horse with a whip if it does not jump a fence and use lunge whips to ask ( and tell) a horse to go round in a circle What is so different to what NH asks with a stick and string

I agree to a certain extent (see above story about scary horse eating jump monster) but there does come a point in both the use of whips and NH sticks and string where if a person is being harsh and beating a horse it goes beyond asking and reinforcing (slightly bad choice of word there but as i say i'm shattered so using my words is becoming difficult ) aides and becomes abuse.

It seems illogical to condemn a whole bunch of people based on one piece of equipment when it can be used so differently depending on the hands and brain behind it. ....... both the lunge whip and the stick can be used abusively, heavily or lightly or just as a cue.


Again totally agree!

Frankly any animal that is subjegated through fear and pain should be taken away from the people visiting such abuse on it and they should have the crap scared out of them and be subjected to pain themselves to see how they like it! Any form of animal abuse should never be tolerated!

This can occur in ANY system of training...... even the traditional / common sense / western etc etc etc

Yes it can occur in any system of training and regardless of which method is being used, there are ways of doing things in a safe and kind way for the animal. But again any abuse of an animal in any method should not be tolerated.

I would also like to say when I think of NH it doesn't conjure images of parelli or monty roberts or any of the other trainers who call themselves NH practitioners (not that i'm knocking any of the trainers who do call themselves NH practitioners... except maybe parelli after watching that vid ), in my mind NH is about undertanding your horse, figuring out why it acts in the way it acts, learning what methods it responds best to and above all never being cruel to the animal.

I'm not sure how well i explained myself there but hey ho

 

[DragonSlayer]

Parelli spend a lot of money on advertising which is why they are the shag buddies of the equestrian media.

Hahahahaha!

I just spluttered my tea out over my laptop....

Hahahahahaha!