What factors would make you want to keep a colt entire?

[MillionDollar]

Does a factor come above the rest, or a few factors important? What factors?

I'm just interested to hear from you experts what makes you decide to keep a young colt entire

I know of someone who thinks if the foal is a colt it should stay entire and become a stallion. Said person has a youngster, who I never liked but they thought was 'absolutely stunning' as a foal, he's now 26 months old, entire and the most ugly, badly put together thing ever

whats the point! Said person is already going on about breeding from him next year

 

[_jetset_]

I am planning on keeping Troy entire for a while but have made no decisions about whether to keep him like that forever. It depends what his conformation is when he grows up a bit...

 

[christine48]

In my opinion for a colt to be kept entire it needs to have generations of good proven competition bloodlines on both sides. The dam is just as important as the stallion (maybe more so). It should have very good conformation and temperament.
I think people should think long and hard before keeping a colt entire. There are already a lot of average stallions out there with conformation faults who don't grade and should never have been kept as entire. Equally you see a lot of lovely geldings competing successfully in all disciplines, however they would not necessarily have made a good stallion.
We bred a lovely foal and a lot of people said we should have kept him entire. He is now advanced eventing, however he'd have been a complete idiot had he been kept entire and may not have been as successful as a competition horse.
Another factor to consider is the logistics of keeping a stallion. If you are at livery they can be a liability, need specialist handling and can never be turned out with others.

 

[arwenplusone]

Bloodlines, conformation, ability and temperament

Oh, and solid fences - an indoor school, no liveries and hoof proof stables!!

And a heavy insurance plan??..

 

[AndyPandy]

Did you know that it's now possible to harvest the almost-matured sperm cells from testes that have been removed during castration, mature them in the lab and freeze them for use for AI later? It's a good option for those who want to castrate their colts for behavioural or other reasons but want to keep the ability to breed (just in case)...

I wondered if that would make anyone's decisions easier?

 

[arwenplusone]

Wow - I knew that was being researched but wasn't sure it was possible yet. Great for colts that do have behavioural issues but would you want to breed from these anyway?

Perhaps a better advancement for harvesting sperm off potential champions and then gelding to ensure/help a sucessful competition career?

 

[Maesfen]

Sorry, I'm one of those annoying people that think all colts are the spawn of Satan and should be gelded at birth!

Doesn't matter to me how beautiful they are, I will never be in the situation where I can keep a colt happily with the rest of the gang so I have them all done as soon as possible. Besides, if it's ever sold to go elsewhere, what are the chances it will have a happy, carefree life being treated as the geldings and having lots of turnout - very slim I would have thought and I would hate to be in part responsible for that.

 

[vicijp]

We keep colts for one reason only, if they have the breeding/are entered in the Derby. Once they get past that, off they come.

 

[magic104]

Sorry, I'm one of those annoying people that think all colts are the spawn of Satan and should be gelded at birth! - I am sure you dont mean that statement as anything but a tongue in cheek comment. If all colts were done at birth how do you expect the species to carry on? Sorry but when I was doing biology you needed an egg & sperm, for either of those you need a female & male. Even if you can extract sperm from testies after gelding how many people can afford that on the off chance their gelding may well have been worthy as a stallion.

 

[the watcher]

For me the decision would be based on pure breeding and suitability as to type, so if at some point in the future I breed a stunning Highland colt (and that could happen, my mare has already produced one which is now being placed in national showing) then I might hold off gelding.
The practicalities mean though that I couldn't keep a stallion at home and would have to find a suitable stud, cost and distance would be the major factors then.

 

[StaceyTanglewood]

Ive kept my colt entire he is now 2 years and 4 months and is the most well behaved horse - he has good confirmation and good bloodlines !!

I will grade him next year and if he doesnt then they will be off !! imnot going to keep him entire if i cant breed thats not fair x

 

[foxviewstud]

i have also kept my colt entire at the moment as he doesnt cause a fuss he is also well behaved and the kids in the family often handle him. i am considering now though in having them off but im not sure as obviously it would be easier for me to sell him if gelded, but at shows judges have said he is going to go far espec inhand so now im not sure.

 

[southsidestud]

i have 2 colts and a stallion who all have good breeding 2 will stay entire for this resaon and the other is for sale so im not sure whether he will stay entire but give me a filly or mare any day!!

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and solid fences - an indoor school, no liveries and hoof proof stables!! And a heavy insurance plan??..

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[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I'm one of those annoying people that think all colts are the spawn of Satan and should be gelded at birth!

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I would keep something as a stallion prospect if it has excellent bloodlines, very good conformation, what I would be willing to use on my own mares and good trainability.

We keep our stallions in good sized paddocks, with electric fencing. It certainly does not resemble Fort Knox!! Outside they are grazing next to mares with foals at foot in adjoining fields and inside they are stabled next to mares. We ride them in an outdoor arena with good sized fencing round it.

During the summer months our stallions are outside from 5.30am through to 7pm, along with the rest of the horses. During the winter they get out twice daily for a run in our outdoor arena for a few hours, as we do not winter our horses outside on grass so that we have clean and well kept pastures for when the foals are born.

Dont see why stallions should be ridden in an indoor school only or see why they should be treated any differently than any another horse. Having had several stallions, if you treat them like any other horse on the yard then they dont think they are any different. We have never had any issues with our stallions either at home or out at competitions.

If people cannot ride or handle stallions appropriately then they should not have them. Also IMHO I have seen owners take stallions out to competitions or shows and acted VERY responsibly, but it has been the other horse owners who have not used their brains, which has resulted in some altercations.............yet rather than blame themselves they automatically blame the person with the stallion. I have also seen people not be able to handle stallions appropriately, and these are the people who should not have them.

An example I had at one competition a few years back..............We had a stallion competing at dressage. We took him out and warmed him up in a quiet corner away from the rest of the people. Those that were working round him knew he was a stallion and acted accordingly. We then had a young lady come into the warmup arena on her mare. She stood and looked at our stallion and her trainer told her that there was a stallion at the other end and just to warm up down with her. Now I was standing at the gate watching...............the next thing was the girl wandered along up to where our stallion was working. At the time he was doing a 20m circle. She stood on the outside of the circle and watched (and at this point her trainer who was also on a horse was shaking her head!) our stallion working. Her reins were looped and she had the end buckle in her mouth.

Well the next thing was as our stallion went passed she then walked forward and was now in the middle of his 20m circle!! Thankfully he was well behaved and took no notice but I was bloody livid!! Firstly because she was deliberately trying to wind him up (I heard this from someone else after) and secondly IF something did go wrong she had no hope because she did not even have hold of the mares reins.................and who would have been the likely party to get blamed if it had..........US.......being the stallion owners!

If a stallion was a problem then we would geld them straight away, as somebody else has said above, there are many average stallions going about, so why add to them. Plus you are competing with the top stallions in Europe through AI, so you have to have a very good stallion if you want to produce similar goods.

 

[htobago]

For me, a colt has to be truly outstanding to be kept entire. There are far too many 'average' stallions.

Good conformation, breeding and ability are not enough - a potential stallion has to be something really special, with excellent conformation, breed type, movement, athletic ability, temperament, presence and a top-class pedigree to back this up and ensure that his good qualities are passed on.

(Eeek - I sound like Mr Darcy enumerating the qualities required of an 'accomplished' woman! But you know what I mean.)

Is it my imagination or are more and more people keeping colts entire that really should be gelded? I am certainly seeing more and more advertised as having 'stallion potential' - many of which, in my humble opinion, will barely make decent geldings, let alone stallions.

 

[magic104]

Can I just make a point that I would consider KOD an ave stallion in looks/confirmation, yet look at what he achieved as a stallion. Dont get me wrong confirmation/temperment/ability/breeding are all important, but sometimes looks are not everything. Problem is that it takes 5yrs to see the results. Also Jumbo can not be traced all the way back via his dam, yet this has not stopped him producing some very decent offspring. I only want to put another point across, because some of the best stallions for confirmation/movement etc have been incapable of producing that in the offspring. And as I have stated before I for one would never have used KOD on looks alone that is for sure!

 

[Enfys]

I think you have to give a horse a chance.

I have only bred mine to my own mares this year and will wait to see what the crosses produce, hopefully useful riding type horses. The Arab x QH (Quarab) is a very popular performance (Riding Club in the UK) type, and should make a good large pony.
Anyway, Zeus is being broken to saddle now and will perhaps show inline next year, his future as a stallion depends entirely on these two foals and how he comes on in his training. For me, apart from bloodlines and conformation, temperament is ALL.

There was a TB stallion standing in Devon and I can't for the life of me understand why he was kept entire, he was dangerous. With a capital D. All his stock that I ever had anything to do with were quirky and unpredictable, and I knew a lot of them, could pick them out at a distance, yet people kept on using him.

 

[the watcher]

[ QUOTE ]
There was a TB stallion standing in Devon and I can't for the life of me understand why he was kept entire, he was dangerous. With a capital D. All his stock that I ever had anything to do with were quirky and unpredictable, and I knew a lot of them, could pick them out at a distance, yet people kept on using him.

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I know of a similar stallion that stood in Oxfordshire for a long time, was a throughly unpleasant animal to be around and only saving grace was that he threw very attractive offspring, the downside was that may of them appeared to have the same screw loose as he did

 

[htobago]

That is a good point Magic104 - I'm really not sure what the answer is!

Ideally I suppose if one has the space and facilities one can 'test-breed' a promising-looking colt to a couple of mares, and only keep him entire if the results are exceptionally good - as Enfys is doing with her boy.

If one does this when the colt is a 2yo, then the results can be seen, at least in terms of the offsprings' basic conformation, type, movement and temperament, by the time the colt is 3 or 4.

I do take your point about KOD, but exceptions such as KOD should not be used as an excuse for keeping a lot of second-rate colts entire, on the unlikely off-chance that they might turn out to be another KOD!

 

[_jetset_]

I think a lot of it depends on the facilities too... For example, if I was to keep Troy where Hannah and Grace are stabled I would have to have him cut before he was a yearling. I didn't want this to be the reason I had him cut, so have found an alternative place for him where I can make my mind up in my own time.

At the moment he has a lovely compact conformation, active paces and an absolutely fantastic temperment. He is very trainable (from what ground work I have done with him) and if all this remains I would consider having a foal from him out of my other WBxTB mare (although I would love to put her to something like Jazz or Krack C too

).

They change so much, I didn't want to make a decision I later regretted... therefore he will stay entire for a while, or at least until I have made a decision either way

 

[magic104]

No your right it shouldn't, but he is one very well known stallion that proves looks are not the be all & end all. Some of the most sucessful competition horses have not always had the best confirmation or temperments. Having said that I agree that breeding should be looking at these things especially when looking at whether to keep a colt entire or not. I dont think it is common practice to keep a colt much pass yearling stage anyway, because most are owned by owners who are at livery yards. And that is also the reason why temperment is so important because the majority of horse owners are like myself, riding club level. My daughter has schooled round Nov level & she may with the right horse power & attitude get to that level competition wise. Only time will tell, & fingers crossed it will be on one we have bred.

 

[Damien]

I can think of one stallion that I would never ever in a month of Sundays looked twice at, conformation awful, joints huge and heavy, heavy boned and hiddoeus head but that stallion has sired some astounding progeny who are very highly sought after. They have acheived tremendous results in sport, in paticular eventing, his owners always maintained he had a fantatsic temperament and that was also passed on, so his pregeny are popular with the amateur for their level headedness as well as professionals who feel they have what it takes to get results. I cannot inagine this stallion ever passing any sport horse breeding stallion Grading but he consitantly sired the foals!

 

[springfallstud]

I think far too many people believe their geese are swans and IMHO far too many medioca colts are kept entire because they are either home bred or carry a few good/well known bloodlines, many are on a basic register and offered a hundred quid or so lower than a fully licensed stallion and as long there stallion it would seem to me is living in the UK, is either cuddley or has a nice name these horses then flood the stallion market and the people who have invested in very good stallion struggle to get the mares. I think all stallions should be fully papered, graded, performance tested and proven in competetion before allowed full covering rights. I am sure there are a few average stallions that can produce but i feel the percentage of them would be very low

Dont mean to offend anyone but that is just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[springfallstud]

hmm not sure i answered your question

To me a colt to stay entire he must have the X factor, been seen by alot of peole who also agree he is special to eliminate stable blindness, a good pedigree with full papers where he is eligible for grading, be sound in body and mind

 

[the watcher]

Isn't it possible, if all stallions had to be graded and licenced, that breeding would become the domain of the very few and there would ultimately be less choice for mare owners?

I certainly believe that serious competition breeders need to raise their game in respect of promoting british breeding of quality horses wherever possible, but also accept that for every horse competing at a high level there are hundreds that are quite happy to plod around at a weekend, as are their owners. These weekend hackers don't need the fine bloodlines of competition animals, need to be hardy, laid back and easy to handle - as long as they are broadly the right shape to do the job I don't see any harm in them.

We need to find a middle way between breeding that is so exclusive it is beyond the pocket of the average horse owner and the kind of dire backyard breeding so nicely highlighted on the Fugly horse of the Day blog. I actually think we are not far from the ideal now.

 

[Damien]

... but hasten to add that whilst the mare owner places responsibilty onto the stallion owner as to whether the stallion is worthy of breeding from i.e licensing competition results etc what onnus do they put on themselves for selecting a good breeding mare?

Lets face it, serious sport horse breeders are well aware of whether or not a stallion has been graded and with which society, they have researched their paperwork and made calculated desicions based on the knowledge that they have aquired on any chosen stallion, and would like to think that they are educated as to whether or not the stallion is worthy of breeding from aren't they?

I can't imagine any young stallion attracting vast amounts of mares anyway to cause enough damage to the equine population, but if his progeny are then seen out and about and he proves him self in competition himself and his progeny in return then prove themselves remaining helthy and sound is that not what makes a stallion worthy of breeding from?

Many go on about the wonderful grading status of the EU stallions and as touched on previously in another thread, is it really ok to tell the world that a stallion is worthy of breeding from for him to breed to 900 mares only to have his stallion status revoked a few years down the line?

And is it really ok for a stallion to breed to 1000 mares on the basis that he passed a human judged assesment, passes a 30 day test then a 70 days test but then later never goes onto achieve anything himself nor his progeny? - I guess we could say by process of popluarity this so called licensed stallion would loose public favor and fall by the way side but nontheless he could produce a large number of foals before the error is recognised.....

Then there are all those stallions who fail with one stud book licensing yet pass another, stallions that pass from one failed grading to a successful one, from the KWPN to AES, SF to Zangerseide, Hannover to Oldenberg, Oldenberg to ZFDP.. so which stallion licensing committee were correct?

Hypothetcially speaking how many are aware that wonderful stallion that you have just bred your mare to failed his Oldenberg stallion licensing but passed with Hannover? Who have used Voltaire know that he failed both Oldenberg and Selle Francais inspections then later passed KWPN Or do you even care?

And how many are actually aware that stallions that fail stallion Gradings with the KWPN as three year olds can actually prove themselves in competition prior to being presented at the age of seven or even older by the KWPN? So what if we just geld everything that fails with one society or is never actually graded? - Do we then simply promote and line the stallion owners pockets of those who are the chosen few?

I really don't have any direct side for or against I feel there are just so many variables, so I try to follow my own judgment and hope that for those who are unsure seek guidance. Surely we can respect peoples choices regardless if we do not aprove?

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of one stallion that I would never ever in a month of Sundays looked twice at, conformation awful, joints huge and heavy, heavy boned and hiddoeus head but that stallion has sired some astounding progeny who are very highly sought after. They have acheived tremendous results in sport, in paticular eventing, his owners always maintained he had a fantatsic temperament and that was also passed on, so his pregeny are popular with the amateur for their level headedness as well as professionals who feel they have what it takes to get results. I cannot inagine this stallion ever passing any sport horse breeding stallion Grading but he consitantly sired the foals!

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Again, point taken - but you would not suggest, surely, that all the other colts fitting this physical description (bad conformation, ugly, coarse, etc.) should be given a chance as stallions, just on the million-to-one chance that they might turn out to be as good as this one?

Yes, by gelding poor-quality or mediocre colts we might very occasionally be missing out on a potentially good sire - but it's not as though there is a shortage of good sires, and surely it's better to miss out on one or two good sires than to breed from hundreds of mediocre ones 'just in case', flooding the market with second-rate horses in the process?

 

[htobago]

Sorry Opie - my last post crossed with yours. Have just read your points about the vagaries of grading, and fully accept that this can be unreliable.

But I suppose some form of grading, however flawed, is better than none at all!

Although having said that, Arab stallions have no official grading/testing process, so tend to be judged mainly on their show results. While I would prefer to see some form of proper grading/testing for Arabs, from what you say it sounds as though these may be no less subjective/political/unreliable than show-judging!

At least when assessing an Arab stallion's show record, breeders are generally looking for consistently good results at several major top-level shows, under a range of different international judges - rather than just the opinion of one committee.

I totally agree with you about the importance of breeding from good-quality mares! OK, a poor-quality mare cannot do as much widespread 'damage' as a poor-quality stallion, purely in terms of numbers of foals. But if her progeny are also used for breeding, the 'damage' can still be considerable in the longer term.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it possible, if all stallions had to be graded and licenced, that breeding would become the domain of the very few and there would ultimately be less choice for mare owners?

I certainly believe that serious competition breeders need to raise their game in respect of promoting british breeding of quality horses wherever possible, but also accept that for every horse competing at a high level there are hundreds that are quite happy to plod around at a weekend, as are their owners. These weekend hackers don't need the fine bloodlines of competition animals, need to be hardy, laid back and easy to handle - as long as they are broadly the right shape to do the job I don't see any harm in them.

We need to find a middle way between breeding that is so exclusive it is beyond the pocket of the average horse owner and the kind of dire backyard breeding so nicely highlighted on the Fugly horse of the Day blog. I actually think we are not far from the ideal now.

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You are quite right - the majority of riders do not need top-flight competition horses, but surely even happy-hackers deserve to do their happy-hacking on well-made, decent-quality horses whose conformation is good enough to give a comfortable ride, and remain sound through to old age?

And anyway, even if one is, say, just looking to breed a pleasant hack or a nice pony for a young rider

, surely it's better to use a high-quality stallion? The result can only be a more attractive, sound and pleasurable ride.

Even if only good-quality stallions (of all breeds) were used at stud, there would still be plenty of affordable horses and ponies for the majority of riders. There are many very good stallions that are currently under-used, partly because the market is flooded with so many mediocre ones, who are often cheaper. If the good ones got more mares, they could afford to reduce their fees so more people could afford them, perhaps?

But I would not wish to see draconian laws and bans and rigid authoritarian structures that allowed no freedom of choice. As you say, there must be a happy medium!

 

[the watcher]

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in using the best possible horse available, but just fear that over rigid structures will simply be another loading of cost on to the breeder (would need at least another department

at DEFRA)

There are plenty of horses out there now that are perfect well bred and well made in the shape of TBs, not all of which will go on to find good homes and I would be just a little worried about flooding a market with high quality horses - but wait, I see it now, we could take our revenge and export them to the Dutch and Germans