What 'False Aids' DONT you agree with?

Tonks said:
In my opinion to ride a horse in an ethical and correct way a rider should always aim for self carriage in their horses. This means not only is the horse moving in a rounded way, but it also has 'self' straightness, 'self' implusion, 'self' throughness, 'self' submission and so on! The horse therefore, is truely 'on the aids'. As such, gadgets are not needed because the horse does it him/herself. If training is consistent, clear and progressive the horse naturally achieves self carriage by themselves rendering gadgets useless. I would rather work on my self and my riding in order for the horse to achieve self carriage so as not to compromise the welfare of my horses. I'm still working on that one but getting there!
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This is a great theory, however, I just don't think there are enough instructors out there with really thorough knowledge - or just great inspirational people prepared to share their knowledge - for a lot of people of ever have a chance of really understanding how to go about this.

I also think sometimes using a 'false aid' does stop some of that horrid sawing on the horses mouth that seems to happen everywhere - even by riders who have quite a lot of success.
 
i only disagree with them if people dont use them properly
especially jumping in draw reins!
thier was a girl with a very speedy pony she was wearing spurs and instructor said dont wear them next time ... tuned up and what wa she wearing-spurs! i didnt think that was right
 
canteron said:
This is a great theory, however, I just don't think there are enough instructors out there with really thorough knowledge - or just great inspirational people prepared to share their knowledge - for a lot of people of ever have a chance of really understanding how to go about this.

I also think sometimes using a 'false aid' does stop some of that horrid sawing on the horses mouth that seems to happen everywhere - even by riders who have quite a lot of success.
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I agree with what you're saying....but the information is out there, if a rider wants it and is open to new ideas! I'm referring to Learning theory, Ride with you mind (Mary Waneless), etc, which starts with the theory that horses aren't humans, ie, they're not stubborn, cunning and so (these are all human behaviours, not the horses) and that problems begin with bad riding or training. Even 'natural horsemanship' goes some way towards this. Trouble is, the horse industry in this country is full of unscientfic, anecdotal knowledge, where we place the blame on the horse and therefore, have to use gadgets. If we all rode better we wouldn't need to, myself included.
 
I would be lost without my draw reins at the moment, with the recent high winds and rain they are holding my back wall up on the shelter.


*gets coat and goes back home waiting for dad to come home and mend broken shelter*
 
tallyho! said:
Those funny lunging things which are like pulleys... pessoa!! That's it. Not keen on these, was there a problem with normal lungeing that this had to be invented?
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Actually encourages impulsion, encourages the horse to lift its back and thus its shoulder. It's not just about pulling the head in...

Take Babycham - 18 years old and not been worked in 4 years, never schooled, only hacked - on loose enough to not come into play at the front - 1st session

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I do not see any problem with a gadget that 'shows the way'. I don't agree with ones that are used as a substitute or to force.

I hate it when draw reins are used without the normal reins attached!
 
Hate draw reins. I can't believe that the Victorians manged to get bearing reins made illegal and here we are in the 21st century with draw reins. Equally abhorrent! I see people (always girls)from the local livery stables riding up the 1 in 6 hill past our house on quality horses with their draw reins pulling their horses' heads in to their chests and the horses gasping for breath. And No! I haven't used them, and I never would. They may be all right in very limited circumstances in a school but not out hacking in hill country.
 
I'm not a pessoa fan, but mainly because its just fashion, and I've never seen anyone use it who actually knew how to lunge. They will be out of fashion soon, and someone will come up with another "miracle, kind" system, like the chambon, or the de gogue before it. It also annoys me that respectable people like the Wittikars have jumped on the gadget making bandwagon, knowing that loads of little girls will want a john wittikar one..

Generally speaking, I think there is no substitute for time and good schooling (of horse and of rider). Sometimes gadgets are useful now and again, and I'm not of the opinion that every horse should be ridden in a snaffle, as they all have different shaped tongues, bars, roof of mouths etc. Its like saying we should all wear the same size shoes! Time should be spent finding the right things for the horse. What I dislike nowadays is the fact that everybody has more money to spend on things, it seems, and they also all think that they know enough to decide, when really they don't, and should be getting help. It often makes me cringe when people ask for advice on here, and get hundreds of ideas for new bits/ gadgets/ schooling ideas from people that they don't even know. if you do know what you're talking about you can just about work out the teenage know-it-alls, but if you're a genuine novice how can you? I have often visions that make me cringe of various "problem" horses and ponies being shoved in a different bit every week because the rider still can't control it (and it can't poss be the rider!).

Anyway, rant over, time for bed I think!
 
I really hate watching most people use side reins as it seems 60% of people have no clue how to properly fit them in the first place.
You either see the horse stapped so tight it has restrictive breathing or so loose they may as well not be on the horse.
 
Re: the pessoa: Everytime the horse moves it's back legs it gets a sock in the mouth with the bit, like a bit see-saw. No one rides like that, why would you train like it? It's another short cut that will go against you in the future.

You can achieve top line without a pulley, how do you think everyone managed without one before it was invented?

And those who think they are useful in the right hands, what are those exactly? Who qualifies on what peice of gadgetry? Can we have a definitive list? :)
 
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guido16 said:
Inky and sunny - seriously, you need to look at photos 2 & 3.

Take a look at your horses mouth!!!!!
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Gosh.....sorry for being critical but agree with above quote....picture 4 presents a more pleasing picture but I think there are several things going wrong with this horse whilst using the pessoa. Focus on the rider/riding [and the training that rider does with the horse] and everthing will fall into place. That's why when a 'professional' gets on your/a horse they perform better! Like the comment about draw reins holding up the shelter - best use for them! If you need false aids (also gag bits/tight nosebands/rollkur/market harborough's etc) - your horse is telling you that it needs to be ridden better!
 
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guido16 said:
Inky and sunny - seriously, you need to look at photos 2 & 3.

Take a look at your horses mouth!!!!!
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The horse hasn't been ridden or worked for 4 years (or more), she was mouthing the bit (I think I'd object a bit to being asked to go to the gym tomorrow ;)). The photos are 4 snapshots in time - I didn't claim the horse was working well in photos one, two and three, merely by the end of the session - photo 4.

Also the horse isn't being mouthy due to the pessoa - if you look at the tightness of it, it isn't even coming into action on her mouth...

Tonks said:
Focus on the rider/riding [and the training that rider does with the horse] and everthing will fall into place.
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I don't actually agree with this in the case of Babycham. She is 18, has never been schooled, she has not been ridden for 4 years and she is extremely hollow backed in her action. I am not going to sit on her until she is fitter and her back muscles have been strengthened - hence the use of the pessoa. I also long and short rein her and free school her to see how she is progressing ie is she still showing self carriage without the use of aid?

As I said a little earlier - she is mouthing the bit in photos 2 and 3, not being socked in the mouth...

Edit - when you say there are several things going wrong with the photos can you explain? I accept constructive criticism, just not someone criticising without saying what exactly they are criticising. But do please bear in mind when doing so the age, fitness, lack of schooling of this horse and the fact that that was the first time she had been lunged and the sequence was over only 10 minutes...
 
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tallyho! said:
Another school of thought would be that if you worked classically and didn't rush the horse you would not need "false aids".

The reason they exist is because the horse isn't doing what you want it to do so you conjure up a cheat.

(btw, I have used several "cheats/aids" over the years and have come to the conclusion that you just have to be patient and work through, cutting corners creates problems elsewhere)
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Rubbish! Most classical riders use artificial aids. Spurs and a schooling whip!

Bits stronger than a snaffle are pretty common too!!!!

Personally I think artificial aids have their place and used correctly and appropriately I have no problem with them. In an ideal world we wouldn't need anything but horses are individuals and have different needs so we have to adapt to them.
 
I wouldn't have posted this,and its not a personal attack, however you have put your photos up for discussion by posting them... I agree that you wouldn't want a horse just coming back into work doing much work. Personally I would just be lungeing for fittening purposes at that point, so wouldn't have anything on the horse. However as you're saying that the horse is working well in photo 4, I'd have to disagree. To me she isn't using her back at all, and her hindlegs are not underneath her - nowehere near tracking up. So I can't see what magic the pessoa is doing at all there. You could achieve that with a lunge rein and whip and no gadgets really. Sorry if this seems too critical..x
 
Honey08 said:
I wouldn't have posted this,and its not a personal attack, however you have put your photos up for discussion by posting them... I agree that you wouldn't want a horse just coming back into work doing much work. Personally I would just be lungeing for fittening purposes at that point, so wouldn't have anything on the horse. However as you're saying that the horse is working well in photo 4, I'd have to disagree. To me she isn't using her back at all, and her hindlegs are not underneath her - nowehere near tracking up. So I can't see what magic the pessoa is doing at all there. You could achieve that with a lunge rein and whip and no gadgets really. Sorry if this seems too critical..x
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I know what you are saying - I'm not claiming the picture is perfect in number 4. As I keep saying, she is an 18 year old horse, unschooled and hasn't been ridden in 4 years. The lunging session was the first one and only 10 minutes long. I wasn't expecting perfection... If you compare photos one and however you have to admit there is a marked difference. Unfortunately I do not have a well schooled horse who tracks up perfectly to show the picture perfect example ;) I have one that is old, unschooled and hollow backed - I was simply showing progression in one session.
 
Hello, just been reading through this thread with interest. I think that probably most gadgets have their place but it will always depend on the individual horse/ rider/ handler combination. When I was growing up on the continent, it was the "done thing" to use a flash or dropped noseband. Also it was somehow necessary to put on a martingale for jumping. Was it really always needed? surely not.

Same with other gadgets. My girl hates side reins so I can't lunge in them but if I want her to work down I need something so I am using double reins and yes, I too have a pessoa and like it for her. She has back issues so I use it for regular ground work sessions.

I am not at all against aids but I think that we need to go back to looking at the blank horse and their individual training needs before using one or the other gadget as not all work for all horses nor are they necessary for all horses.
 
Rose Folly said:
Hate draw reins. I can't believe that the Victorians manged to get bearing reins made illegal and here we are in the 21st century with draw reins. Equally abhorrent! I see people (always girls)from the local livery stables riding up the 1 in 6 hill past our house on quality horses with their draw reins pulling their horses' heads in to their chests and the horses gasping for breath. And No! I haven't used them, and I never would. They may be all right in very limited circumstances in a school but not out hacking in hill country.
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Just to be a nerd, bearing reins were never made illegal :o Just social pressure thanks to Anna Sewell and other campaigners. You are still legally entitled to use them, if you choose.

Agree over draw reins. I rode at a place which put most of there horses in these (albeit loose length): http://www.reitshop24.de/Trensenz_ume/Hilfsz_gel/Dreiecksz_gel/
I didn't feel remotely safe, and one of the horses absolutely hated them.
 
Kinda useless advice if you are in essex or cambridge but anywhere else it might be useful.

If you want to build up the back muscles get them on the long rein and do hill work, or even in hand. You can lunge on a slope as well as long as the hill isn't too steep and the circles are huge.

as to gadgets - never had much time for them really. Was always taught that if you can't do it in a snaffle without a whip or spurs you can't do it at all, go back and retrain.
 
I don't use anything... I normally even lunge in a headcollar! I personally believe that a horse should fall naturally not be forced but I am lucky I was blessed with a horse who happily does this.... I don't have anything against the Pessoa my understanding of it is that it's only there to encourage the horse to work correctly not force... however I have never used one so not 100%

Please excuse the puffy back legs and slight stiffness! He had just come back into work after 4months!

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Our two are ridden in snaffles and plain canvasson nosebands nearly all the time. They never have had a martingale . Stinky is also ridden in a double for the show ring and some schooling and Farra has a pelham for the show ring and when out on a fast hack on the odd occasion she can be a big horse to ride and I like to stop on a squeeze of a hand.

Farra has never had any gadgets used on her and Stinky does in the winter have a pessola lunging session twice a week but nothing else.

I have used a market harborough in the past on a cob mare that was gypsy broke and driven and did everything flat out with her nose out. She was a big girl and the MH was to help me short term to get her to come into a more rounded shape and steady her - the MH helped with the front end and allowed me to get her moving forward from behind and it did the trick.

I also used one for XC and hunting on my very strong TB as it was the only way I could keep control as she would stretch out and go. I am a very small adult and sometimes I do need a bit of help that a larger and stronger rider would not.

What I hate is to see horses strapped down with side reins, draw reins and nosebands. Harsh use of spurs and whip - I sometimes use both, spurs help me with schooling for leg yield etc - again I have short fat legs. I rarely need to use a whip and as a rule only carry a show cane in the ring and a schooling whip out hacking as they are useful for undoing gates and the rare occasion Stinky halts and does not want to go forward. I would rather give one sharp tap than pony club kicks to get moving.

Gadgets can have their place, but too many people rely on them and/or use them as a fashion aid or to control their horse when there could be another way to do this rather than resorting to the strap down method.
 
Inky_and_Sunny said:
The horse hasn't been ridden or worked for 4 years (or more), she was mouthing the bit (I think I'd object a bit to being asked to go to the gym tomorrow ;)). The photos are 4 snapshots in time - I didn't claim the horse was working well in photos one, two and three, merely by the end of the session - photo 4.

Also the horse isn't being mouthy due to the pessoa - if you look at the tightness of it, it isn't even coming into action on her mouth...

I don't actually agree with this in the case of Babycham. She is 18, has never been schooled, she has not been ridden for 4 years and she is extremely hollow backed in her action. I am not going to sit on her until she is fitter and her back muscles have been strengthened - hence the use of the pessoa. I also long and short rein her and free school her to see how she is progressing ie is she still showing self carriage without the use of aid?

As I said a little earlier - she is mouthing the bit in photos 2 and 3, not being socked in the mouth...

Edit - when you say there are several things going wrong with the photos can you explain? I accept constructive criticism, just not someone criticising without saying what exactly they are criticising. But do please bear in mind when doing so the age, fitness, lack of schooling of this horse and the fact that that was the first time she had been lunged and the sequence was over only 10 minutes...
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In response to your posting, I'll try to respond to you. I hope this is not taken as a criticism. I know it's difficult to take negative comments and I've had plenty in my time but it's made me a better rider so I'll try to be constructive from what I see...someone else may think differently. Please dont' think this is a personal attack.....just an observation in order to stimulate debate!
I'll start with........ I think she's a well balanced mare who is reasonably 'up' in the shoulder with four legs in each corner, so to speak. She's also not too long in the back nor croup high, so I think she'll find it easier to work in a 'through' and 'engaged' way more than you think she can. She also looks really sweet.
However, there several points that I picked up on (again not meant as a personal attack):
*She isn't 'mouthing' the bit [as you say] but rather evading it. Evasion is not the horse being difficult, it is about the incorrect use of the pressure/release signals on the bit. When we ride horses [or with in-hand work] we should release the pressure (reward) on the bit the moment they provide the correct response. The horse then understand that pressure on the bit means 'stop'. With your use of the lunge line [and even with the pessoa] this isn't going to happen.
*I'll explain.........There is incorrect and undue pressure on her mouth (tongue/bars,etc) due to the position of the lunge line which places restrictive pressure on the outside of the mouth as you have it hooked on the outside of the pad. It also then places pressure on the inside too due to the contact on the line from the inside. Some pressure is OK as long as it's released in order to signal to the horse that this is the response we want. In all your pictures however, the pressure has not been released, in part, I expect due to thier position but also as you probably haven't released it either. With the lunge line like this, you have turned them into side reins. It is always recommended that when you use side reins as a pair (that is, inside and out.) I know that they can be of differing lengths to encourage inside flexion but this would only be used on a more advanced and fit horse that can flex correctly to the inside without losing the shoulder, etc. Therefore, I wouldn't use your lunge line in the way you have, for a few reasons but mainly at this stage because the pressure/release system can't happen here. I would imagine that what your horse feels when lunged like this is simply; overt pressure on the mouth [which doesn't mean anthing to her] something funny above her hocks, something funny around her middle and that's about it.
As a result he/she isn't working correctly where there is no hingleg engagement and as such, can't be using his/her back properly. If continued to be worked in this manner she will start to become desentitized to the mouth pressure (she won't respond to the 'stop' signals or at least transitions/half halts will be poor) and she won't strengthen the back at all. In fact, it may keep her center of gravity over the horsehand/front feet which is never a good thing in a ridden horse. However, what it noteworthy (and give the fact we're talking about false aids) is that the pessoa isn't really coming into play at all so you might as well lunge her with just the lunge line.
*Picture 4 is more pleasing than the others. However, as her shoulders have lifted a bit more and there is more engagement from behind. However, I suspect that this is a result of working her on a circle in trot rather than as a consequence of the pessoa. I do understand however, that the pictures are taken from the beginning and at the end of the sesson and there is some improvement which is always what we're looking for.
*I also wouldn't use the pessoa on the lower setting at this stage. For young/unschooled/unfit horses I would use it on the lower setting. The lower setting isolates the back muscles alone (apparently!) and the higher setting works the back along side the base of the neck.
However, in my opinion I wouldn't begin an elderly and unfit horse's programme of work in this way. Lungeing places quite a few demands on the horse (such as lateral & longitudinal flexion) that if not fit, the horse can really struggle with, especially when old or young. You can easily work on your horse's flexion out hacking [or even in-hand] whilst building fitness and muscle development.
You also mention 'self carriage'. In my opinion self carriage is only going to happen when the horse is truely 'on the aids'. From the pictures shown she is not 'on the aids' (I know it's only the first session.) As such, this is only going to happen through correct in-hand and ridden work later down the line, so I doubt if she's showing self carriage at this stage, but of course, I may be wrong.
As you said, you've have some objections if asked to go to the gym tomorrow! You're horse is the same. Go steady with her as she look like a really sweet mare! Again, just my observations and there to provoke thought!
 
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What really riles me is when people employ the use of these gadgets straight away. I don't believe in rounding a horse straight away (always give time to warm up) so if you MUST use a gadget at least warm horse up first i.e get off your a*se and put the damn thing on after at least 15 mins
 
lillith said:
Was always taught that if you can't do it in a snaffle without a whip or spurs you can't do it at all, go back and retrain.
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Exactly.

I will qualify this slightly by saying that in some cases for the sake of safety using gadgets / artificial aids can IMO be okay, and that some are worse than others. Grass reins on a kid's pony, a stronger bit on a horse who has learnt to evade the contact, a martingale on a horse that throws his or her head up in a dangerous way - all of these are good, valid reasons for using 'extras'. In my view these should be, if at all possible, a temporary measure while the horse is being reschooled, but I'd rather see them used than see a horse or rider injured.

I read a fantastic book once and I've stupidly forgotten the name of the author, but it was called something like 'advanced dressage.' The author said that spurs and a double bridle are only 'glitter' for the arena - if horse and rider cannot perform a movement without them then their training is at fault.
 
The whole thing of "unless you can do it in a cavesson and snaffle, you shouldn't be doing it" is rubbish. Obviously all of our Olympic riders in all of the different disciplines are rubbish riders as they ride their horses in all sorts of "gadgets"!!

It really does depend on the partnership. It riles me to see things being used incorrectly eg small kids with spurs and 3 ring gags on the bottom ring, people with hands like monkey's feet with a big strong bit in, drawreins being used on their own, martingales too short, etc etc, but it does happen so I've got over it ;)

I am proud of the fact my horse goes in a cavesson with a rubber snaffle, but will have no hesitation in riding her in whatever bit it may be that suits her and me as she progresses.

I know a horse who is a BIG horse and is built downhill. His owners are proud of the fact he is "snaffle mouthed" even though he sticks his head on the floor and runs off on his forehand jumping, which is just plain scary to watch. I would much rather see him in a different bit, in control and balanced to break the cycle, than see his deluded owners come to grief when their "snaffle mouthed" horse ploughs them into the bottom of a fence and tips them up.
 
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All our olympic riders are in it to get the horse to the top as quickly as poss. Its a job to them. Obviously all of them ride better than the rest of us, and could be qualified as "knowing what they're doing"... They don't always all look after their horses as well as you'd think. I've worked on a few yards where the horses were living the life of a battery hen in order to keep them working towards the olympics. An ex badminton winner came to a yard that I worked on looking like a hat rack, as he was no longer capable of competing, so was "chucked away"..

Totally agree that I don't like to see spurs etc on kids. As for bits, we've often had to up a pony's bit so that a diddy rider could stop, as the pony knows very well that its got a three stone weakling onboard. A child like that doesn't hurt a pony's mouth - they're totally ineffective most of the time until they're about 11! As the child has got older the bit can usually be changed back.

Also agree that some horses go much better in other bits than snaffles. My mare will pull against you until her mouth bleeds in a snaffle XC (no dodgy reasons, just simply wanting to jump!) but goes perfectly in a gag with two reins, so its much safer for us both, and kinder on her mouth. The gag doesn't even come into play unless there are arguements. You could say go back and retrain, but I want to keep that va va vroom/joie de vivre and forwardness in a XC horse, just be able to contain it...
 
KatB said:
I know a horse who is a BIG horse and is built downhill. His owners are proud of the fact he is "snaffle mouthed" even though he sticks his head on the floor and runs off on his forehand jumping, which is just plain scary to watch. I would much rather see him in a different bit, in control and balanced to break the cycle, than see his deluded owners come to grief when their "snaffle mouthed" horse ploughs them into the bottom of a fence and tips them up.
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You see to me, this horse needs reschooling. I too would rather see a safe, balanced round - of course I would. But I would rather see the horse taken back to basics, taught balance, collection and control over his body, than see a stronger bit in his mouth. If he is dangerous or out of control then perhaps a different bit is needed in the meantime, but a new bit won't magically enable him to lift his forehand.
 
Honey08, I've also worked in the industry, and am under no illusion of how some are treated. However, as you say, some competition horses are simly not straight forward, and also love their job, so keeping on top of the behaviour so you keep control often needs some "gadgetry" as a helping hand ;)
 
Hence the comment "to break the cycle". ;) I don't believe rider has enough feel to ride in a strong bit for any length of time, but they need to regain respect from the horse in order to reschool.
 
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