What 'False Aids' DONT you agree with?

[Pinkvboots]

I hate flash and grackle nosebands, draw reins are pointless when you take them off the horse will stick its head up without them, I ride my Arab in a snaffle never carry a whip even when schooling, if your doing a dressage test or your in the showring you wont be able to use any of these things what will you do then?
Less is more I think.

 

[tallyho!]

Rubbish! Most classical riders use artificial aids. Spurs and a schooling whip!

Bits stronger than a snaffle are pretty common too!!!!

Personally I think artificial aids have their place and used correctly and appropriately I have no problem with them. In an ideal world we wouldn't need anything but horses are individuals and have different needs so we have to adapt to them.

I think you have to distinguish what we mean by 'false aids' here. Spurs can be used to convey refined messages and shouldn't be used unless you've mastered your art. Schooling whips i believe are used in classical and non-classical riding. Bits stronger than a snaffle, again, not a 'false aid' it's the communication used and as you progress, you will naturally use a curb in addition to a snaffle to refine your aids. A snaffle is an aid, not a false one.

I agree we need to adapt but if you follow the prescribed scale of training, you wouldn't need to spend your money on them. Its just that in modernity/big-money competition people are short of time so use short-cuts. It works but for how long before something goes wrong or the horse is deemed useless as poster above describes?

Kinda useless advice if you are in essex or cambridge but anywhere else it might be useful.

If you want to build up the back muscles get them on the long rein and do hill work, or even in hand. You can lunge on a slope as well as long as the hill isn't too steep and the circles are huge.

as to gadgets - never had much time for them really. Was always taught that if you can't do it in a snaffle without a whip or spurs you can't do it at all, go back and retrain.

This is what I do, I'm lucky I have hills aplenty, I'm knackered but I've got buns of steel!!!!

 

[Tonks]

The whole thing of "unless you can do it in a cavesson and snaffle, you shouldn't be doing it" is rubbish. Obviously all of our Olympic riders in all of the different disciplines are rubbish riders as they ride their horses in all sorts of "gadgets"!!

It really does depend on the partnership. It riles me to see things being used incorrectly eg small kids with spurs and 3 ring gags on the bottom ring, people with hands like monkey's feet with a big strong bit in, drawreins being used on their own, martingales too short, etc etc, but it does happen so I've got over it

I am proud of the fact my horse goes in a cavesson with a rubber snaffle, but will have no hesitation in riding her in whatever bit it may be that suits her and me as she progresses.

I know a horse who is a BIG horse and is built downhill. His owners are proud of the fact he is "snaffle mouthed" even though he sticks his head on the floor and runs off on his forehand jumping, which is just plain scary to watch. I would much rather see him in a different bit, in control and balanced to break the cycle, than see his deluded owners come to grief when their "snaffle mouthed" horse ploughs them into the bottom of a fence and tips them up.

.................................................
WRONG! Putting a stronger bit in this horse's mouth would be the wrong answer. The horse has problems with the 'stop' response (evades the bit) as the rider doesn't release the pressure at the correct moment on the horse's mouth. As it's not released at the correct moment (the rider probably 'holds' onto the horses mouth all the time, or at the incorrect time so that there is a pressure level of say, 6, at the wrong time or incorrect time.) As a result the horse doesn't understand what pressure means [and at what level] and therefore, doesn't respond to the signal to slow or stop as it has become desentitised/habituated to this pressure. However, as it's putting it's head to the floor it has become a conflict behaviour (like the next level up.) As such, it means that the horse is uncomfortable. (Leaning INTO pressure is an evolutionary response designed by nature - leaning on the bit!)
I think your answer typifies what's wrong with the horse industry as it places blame on the horse rather than seeing it as a problem with the riding/training of this horse.
If the horse is put into a stronger bit it will simply exacerbate the problem. This is because it still has the same rider who will be unable to release at the correct moment and thus the overall generalised pressure will be increased, which is really a welfare issue.
Change the riding and the horse will change....so you won't need gagits.

 

[lauraandjack]

Going back to Pessoas....and the see sawing action.

I see plenty of people around and about who use a see sawing motion of their hands to force their horse down into an "outline"

HATE HATE HATE it!

 

[lisab]

Well, I seem to be the devil incarnate here.... I hack my horse in a snaffle and cavesson but always jump him in a 2 ring dutch gag and an english grackle. And he always has a martingale except when doing flatwork in a school.

Because.....

Grackle - he cocks his jaw good and proper. Can see his teeth flashing at me sideways if I look down.

Gag - he's really horrible and heavy in your hand when jumping in a snaffle and lovely and light in his gag. Which is very thick and has a lozenge in the middle.

Martingale - spins, spins, spins on the road, throws his head up, proper naughty pants.

He's a feisty, cocky, spooky (but very talented and beautiful) warmblood.

So I would much rather use the gadgets and not pull his teeth out by hauling his mouth in a snaffle.

I once had a jumping lesson with a famous professional, who hated my gag. She said that only Michael Whittaker has good enough hands for 1 rein on a Dutch gag and made me put it on the snaffle ring. He did nothing but run off with me and I hauled on his mouth, swearing lots.

I realise I will be shot down in flames for this and will never go to heaven

 

[Honey08]

.................................................
WRONG! Putting a stronger bit in this horse's mouth would be the wrong answer. The horse has problems with the 'stop' response (evades the bit) as the rider doesn't release the pressure at the correct moment on the horse's mouth. As it's not released at the correct moment (the rider probably 'holds' onto the horses mouth all the time, or at the incorrect time so that there is a pressure level of say, 6, at the wrong time or incorrect time.) As a result the horse doesn't understand what pressure means [and at what level] and therefore, doesn't respond to the signal to slow or stop as it has become desentitised/habituated to this pressure. However, as it's putting it's head to the floor it has become a conflict behaviour (like the next level up.) As such, it means that the horse is uncomfortable. (Leaning INTO pressure is an evolutionary response designed by nature - leaning on the bit!)
I think your answer typifies what's wrong with the horse industry as it places blame on the horse rather than seeing it as a problem with the riding/training of this horse.
If the horse is put into a stronger bit it will simply exacerbate the problem. This is because it still has the same rider who will be unable to release at the correct moment and thus the overall generalised pressure will be increased, which is really a welfare issue.
Change the riding and the horse will change....so you won't need gagits.

Again, this isn't meant to be a personal attack, but this sounds like an essay for an equine science degree, full of textbook like explanations, rather than the words of someone who has ridden a variety of horses and come to those conclusions! I think the big "wrong" at the start gave me that impression. If only in the real world, outside of a college essay, things were so black and white. Are you saying that every horse jumping at Olympia that isn't in a snaffle or cavesson noseband wants retraining because it has a bad rider? You can't generalise that all horses can be ridden in the same way and the same tack. Much as I was saying that many competition riders (and by this I mean pros at the top) use gadgets to achieve quicker results, especially at the start, the horse still is ridden properly. I do agree to some extent/degree that perhaps the way a horse is started contributes to how it goes later in life. I personally think my horse that pulls XC has learnt to overbend and rush due to too much time in draw reins as a youngster, but after years and years of habitude its not going to change by my "not fighting and releasing earlier" - that would more than likely lead to a rotational fall on this horse. I've asked many horsemen/trainers that I respect whether they felt a gag was too harsh, and their reply was "the horse is happy, responding, and not fighting, so don't fix what isn't broken"..

 

[lisab]

Anyway BSJASJ123 - where have you gone now there is a riot going on?!!! This was your post

 

[Rose Folly]

That's really interesting SusannaF. I knew Anna Sewell had a lot to do with discrediting bering reins them but had thought that they'd been banned in law.. and, to show my further ignorance, what's the difference between draw reins and side reins? Or is there one?

 

[SusannaF]

That's really interesting SusannaF. I knew Anna Sewell had a lot to do with discrediting bering reins them but had thought that they'd been banned in law.. and, to show my further ignorance, what's the difference between draw reins and side reins? Or is there one?

Yes, the horses that turned up with the hearse for her funeral had bearing reins, and her mother had to run out and tell the driver to remove them... No ban ever though.

Really no expert on tack, but I think side reins are fixed and draw reins can be lengthened and will give if the rider releases/lengthens them.

 

[tallyho!]

Well, I seem to be the devil incarnate here.... I hack my horse in a snaffle and cavesson but always jump him in a 2 ring dutch gag and an english grackle. And he always has a martingale except when doing flatwork in a school.

Because.....

Grackle - he cocks his jaw good and proper. Can see his teeth flashing at me sideways if I look down.

Gag - he's really horrible and heavy in your hand when jumping in a snaffle and lovely and light in his gag. Which is very thick and has a lozenge in the middle.

Martingale - spins, spins, spins on the road, throws his head up, proper naughty pants.

He's a feisty, cocky, spooky (but very talented and beautiful) warmblood.

So I would much rather use the gadgets and not pull his teeth out by hauling his mouth in a snaffle.

I once had a jumping lesson with a famous professional, who hated my gag. She said that only Michael Whittaker has good enough hands for 1 rein on a Dutch gag and made me put it on the snaffle ring. He did nothing but run off with me and I hauled on his mouth, swearing lots.

I realise I will be shot down in flames for this and will never go to heaven

You naughty naughty girl!!

Your feisty, spooky beautiful warmblood sounds like he's a speedfreak! Reminds me of my sister who had one of those. Completly overhorsed, pretty much had every gadget going at the time (horse not sister although she could have done with a safety belt herself - broke her collarbone). Poor girl, in the end dad got angry and loaned her out to the skinniest chap you've ever seen, who turned her into a lapdog. So, moral of the story, warmbloods are not mad creatures satan invented, just fussy. Oh and, call skinny chap for lessons...................

 

[KatB]

Again, this isn't meant to be a personal attack, but this sounds like an essay for an equine science degree, full of textbook like explanations, rather than the words of someone who has ridden a variety of horses and come to those conclusions! I think the big "wrong" at the start gave me that impression. If only in the real world, outside of a college essay, things were so black and white. Are you saying that every horse jumping at Olympia that isn't in a snaffle or cavesson noseband wants retraining because it has a bad rider? You can't generalise that all horses can be ridden in the same way and the same tack. Much as I was saying that many competition riders (and by this I mean pros at the top) use gadgets to achieve quicker results, especially at the start, the horse still is ridden properly. I do agree to some extent/degree that perhaps the way a horse is started contributes to how it goes later in life. I personally think my horse that pulls XC has learnt to overbend and rush due to too much time in draw reins as a youngster, but after years and years of habitude its not going to change by my "not fighting and releasing earlier" - that would more than likely lead to a rotational fall on this horse. I've asked many horsemen/trainers that I respect whether they felt a gag was too harsh, and their reply was "the horse is happy, responding, and not fighting, so don't fix what isn't broken"..

Completely agree with Honey08 there. Considering most of the horses/riders at international level are at towards the top of their ability, there can't be many gaps in their training.

In theory, it is lovely to think that every horse can go in a cavesson and snaffle,a nd stay like that for everything, but in practie, it is simply not always possible.

The people that think that is the case, and gadgets are "work of the devil" I would be very interested to know what results you have got and at what level

 

[Tonks]

Again, this isn't meant to be a personal attack, but this sounds like an essay for an equine science degree, full of textbook like explanations, rather than the words of someone who has ridden a variety of horses and come to those conclusions! I think the big "wrong" at the start gave me that impression. If only in the real world, outside of a college essay, things were so black and white. Are you saying that every horse jumping at Olympia that isn't in a snaffle or cavesson noseband wants retraining because it has a bad rider? You can't generalise that all horses can be ridden in the same way and the same tack. Much as I was saying that many competition riders (and by this I mean pros at the top) use gadgets to achieve quicker results, especially at the start, the horse still is ridden properly. I do agree to some extent/degree that perhaps the way a horse is started contributes to how it goes later in life.
I personally think my horse that pulls XC has learnt to overbend and rush due to too much time in draw reins as a youngster, but after years and years of habitude its not going to change by my "not fighting and releasing earlier" - that would more than likely lead to a rotational fall on this horse. I've asked many horsemen/trainers that I respect whether they felt a gag was too harsh, and their reply was "the horse is happy, responding, and not fighting, so don't fix what isn't broken"..

I can see why you may think it's a college essay and I do come from an academic background. I am however, older than I'd like to admit, competed BE, BD got my AI, teach, ran my own yard and I also drive - although haven't driven for a while. So I think I've got a bit of practical experience. When I work with horses though, I started to use Learning Theory and equine Ethology with amazing results a few years ago. This is because the ideas ARE generalisable and much more black and white than you think. Horse will show specific patterns in their behaviour that can be elicited by certain signals. For example, we know that horses habituate to a certain amount of pressure say, 1, with a general contact on the reins and this is acceptable to them. We also know however, that when that contact is increased to a 9 and applied inconsistently or overtly, they will react with a certain set of behaviours. That's the beauty of this approach as it allows an instructor to effectively diagnose the problem.

I'm not sure why you've mentioned professional riders - I didn't. I responded to your statement about a problem horse needing a more severe bit and I responded by saying it and the rider needed re-schooling. I don't think you can refer to professional riders in the context in which you did, because you can't compare amature and professional riders. Professional riders have better timining and therefore, know when to apply pressure and when to release it. They may have choosen to use say, a leverage bit, because they want to refine their aids with a horse that perhaps needs the pressure to go up to 8 when asking for stop/half halt, etc. Some horse may only need a 5 - only practical experience can tell you which ones they are. But, these pro rider's timing is there so evasions don't arise, hopefully. Therefore, is not about achieving quicker results but about refining the aids so that the horse and rider work better at any given moment.

"I do agree to some extent/degree that perhaps the way a horse is started contributes to how it goes later in life." I have never said this! In fact quite the opposite! Horses are learning all the time where each session has the ability to build the last, thank goodness. Therefore, re-training over-rides old training recieved in the past. That's why we can re-train ex-racers and so on and we can desentitize horses that have been traumatised.

Therefore, its highly unlikely that your horse is responding to the training it was given ages ago. It will be responding to the riding it's receiving now. Going overbent is an evasion - where the horse is trying to escape a level of pressure that it finds unacceptable. Is he also poor to perform half halts and downwards transitions? Canter-walk? Rushing - not because he's overjoyed to be jumping but because he's not effectively under your control because his 'stop/slow' is not understood. This is normally caused by problems with the pressure/release signals. He is also probably anxious as these signals are poorly understood. Jumping smaller fences to build confidence is key. I'm not even sure how you're able to even go XC with a horse that you're fighting as it's dangerous! If you have to fight him to prevent a rotational fall then it's worrying.

Therefore, I think you're totally wrong when you stated that "not fighting and releasing earlier" wont cure the problem. I think this phrase in itself shows that you don't quite understand how the pressure/release thing works! If only you were to go back to 'go/stop/turn/yeild (particularly 'stop') and look at how quick you were at rewarding your horse when he provides the answer and then build on his jumping work slowly and progressively you'd find you have a different horse. Yes, he may be a horse that needs an '8' level of pressure and is better suited to something other than a snaffle but if you're 'fighting' him, it's a clear indication he doesn't have a clue what stop means.

When I looked at Learning theory, etc, I became disheartened because I had to look at my riding and change an awlful lot about it! I suppose its really similar to a 'classical' way of riding but it's hard to look at oneself - it's easier to say that it's the horses fault.

 

[Honey08]

We will clearly have to agree to differ!

I'm an AI too, with over 20yrs experience in various yards, so feel I actually have some idea how to ride my horse.

My point is that my horse doesn't fight or overbend in the gag, as it suits her. Where we would be dangerous across country in a snaffle, we are controlled and safe with the gag. The horse had never done XC before I had it, and got like this from the second event, when shedecided XC is her fave thing ever!

The horse works perfectly through transitions up and down on the flat, and generally schools and hacks with good manners in a snaffle. Basically she loves to jump and gallop. Its the same when you get to a field where you can gallop. She's not worried at all, simply saying "come on lets go!!" Re eventing, she just loves to go XC. Won't stand in the start box etc. Needs to get going and into a rhythm, which is easy with the gag rein. She is not a horse thatI would take hunting.

I'm not blaming the horse at all. I love her to bits, and think we have a good rapport together. Many "professional" riders that I have lessons with, who are at the top of the game agree with the bits I use, and the way I ride her. The other event horse I own is a much more laid back character, and goes in a snaffle. The horses go in what suits them and what they are comfortable in.

By the way I mentioned professional riders as a response to where you were saying that any horse not in a snaffle should go back to basics and the rider should be retrained. There was no indication as to what level of rider you were refering, or so I understood.

I am far from a gadget fan,as you would notice from some of my other posts on this thread, however sometimes they help in certain circumstances.

Apologies as I seem to have got your back up.

 

[Bowen4Horses]

QUOTE:- "I think they can be useful as long as they are used correctly"

Everyone normally replies like this to these threads........................does anyone ever confess to using them incorrectly?

i used to ride my pony in draw reins, through the snaffle ring of his pelham, instead of the normal reins...

*whistles off*

i was 12 at the time...

 

[Benji1]

Whilst I'm not adverse to false aids, I HATE seeing them over used.

On my own horses I have had the odd martingale/stronger bit.

Riding schools however REALLY get my goat with 'gadgets', somewhere I've been in the past, most of the ponies and horses were in 3 ring gags/pelhams - including the ones you basically had to thelwell kick into trot. All be maybe 5 (out of over 100) had martingales/breast plates/croopes/other bits of leather. It drove me scatty, I often took them off the bottom ring of the gag and put it on the snaffle ring - with no problems at all and my riding is far from strong.

I've ridden in spurs once - hated it.

On the other hand, my absoulte PET hate is see saw hands/heavy hands pulling the horses back teeth out/gobbing them in the mouth every 5 seconds. Grrrr!!!

*gets off soapbox*

 

[Tonks]

We will clearly have to agree to differ!

I'm an AI too, with over 20yrs experience in various yards, so feel I actually have some idea how to ride my horse.

My point is that my horse doesn't fight or overbend in the gag, as it suits her. Where we would be dangerous across country in a snaffle, we are controlled and safe with the gag. The horse had never done XC before I had it, and got like this from the second event, when shedecided XC is her fave thing ever!

The horse works perfectly through transitions up and down on the flat, and generally schools and hacks with good manners in a snaffle. Basically she loves to jump and gallop. Its the same when you get to a field where you can gallop. She's not worried at all, simply saying "come on lets go!!" Re eventing, she just loves to go XC. Won't stand in the start box etc. Needs to get going and into a rhythm, which is easy with the gag rein. She is not a horse thatI would take hunting.

I'm not blaming the horse at all. I love her to bits, and think we have a good rapport together. Many "professional" riders that I have lessons with, who are at the top of the game agree with the bits I use, and the way I ride her. The other event horse I own is a much more laid back character, and goes in a snaffle. The horses go in what suits them and what they are comfortable in.

By the way I mentioned professional riders as a response to where you were saying that any horse not in a snaffle should go back to basics and the rider should be retrained. There was no indication as to what level of rider you were refering, or so I understood.

I am far from a gadget fan,as you would notice from some of my other posts on this thread, however sometimes they help in certain circumstances.

Apologies as I seem to have got your back up.

All part of the debate! My backs not up......just got too much time on my hands at the moment as had a baby last year and can only get out and about and ride when my husband gets home from work! Good luck for next eventing season - lets hope the ground is not so hard as this season was!

 

[tallyho!]

Just a general question... who still uses the six scales of training?

Just quoting this...

Someone once said: It takes ten years learning how to sit on a horse without getting in his way. It takes another ten years learning how to influence the horse and then a further ten years learning how to influence him without getting in his way!

Whereabouts are you?

 

[Honey08]

All part of the debate! My backs not up......just got too much time on my hands at the moment as had a baby last year and can only get out and about and ride when my husband gets home from work! Good luck for next eventing season - lets hope the ground is not so hard as this season was!

Thanks. Nice of you to say that. I'm off sick waiting for a shoulder op - can't ride or anything, so spending too much time on here as well! Not good for you sometimes!

 

[Rose Folly]

Came back into this debate simply because I realise that I am an offender - in that I use a running martingale. The main reason I have it is to help keep the saddle on my totally barrel-shaped cob in place. I'm now a somewhat decrepit and, dare I say it, overweight (topheavy) rider. Madam has a nasty habit of thinking she's a TB on grass, and then putting in a big shy when cantering (we're in shooting country so there are always loads of pheasants and partridges in the grass). If I go off centre, round goes the saddle, however well-girthed. So the martingale helps a lot. And I use it because, when I realised that I needed something, I did have a martingale to hand but not a breastplate.