What happens to your Stud Fee if your mare is PTS?

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minmax

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I was using a stallion last year, chilled semen which I was collecting from the stud. Didn't take, so I would have carried on this year. I had to have the mare put to sleep earlier in the year due to hind leg problems so 'what happens to the stud fee'? I have'nt contacted the stud yet as I still don't know what to do.
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It really depends on what the nomination terms were. We offer no Foal Free Return and Live foal gaurantee on all of our boys. I think its important that the mare owner has something in return. Loosing the mare is bad enough and in such a scenario allow the NFFR to be granted to another mare, same thing happened to one of our clients this year and the return will be used on another mare. Offering a refund is rarer but some stallion owners also allow the NFFR to be sold to a third party that way the mare owner can recuperate some of the investment.
 
I'm sorry about your loss.

A few years back I lost a mare a fortnight before she was due to foal and the stud kindly gave me a free return for the year later. As long as I owned the mare, it didn't matter which mare it was but I was not able to pass the return to anyone else and I could take as long as I liked before sending another mare, ten years even.
At another stud where the stud fee is paid on arrival, my mare didn't hold so was due a return; again, I could substitute if I wanted but not pass the return on; they also would not refund the fee for any reason even though the mare had been there at livery so it was not as if they hadn't made any money out of me anyway! For various reasons, I had to miss a year and before I could use the return, the stallion died; they still would not refund the stud fee but I was able to transfer to another stallion although I didn't particularly want to, would much rather have had half my stud fee back or something; I don't recommend there to anyone now!
 
This happened to me about 3yrs ago when the mare was pts after breaking a hind leg. The stud owner would not allow me to transfer to the other mare & soon after sold the stallion anyway.
 
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This happened to me about 3yrs ago when the mare was pts after breaking a hind leg. The stud owner would not allow me to transfer to the other mare & soon after sold the stallion anyway.

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Thats really sad, surely it makes no difference to the stud which mare it is as long as its the same owner, and the mare meets any possible pre-agreed criteria for using that stallion.
 
i had a free return to Fleetwater Opposition which we couldn't use as the mare ended up with veterinay problems and the stud said it was fine to use it on my friend's mare.
my friend paid me for the stud fee and has had a gorgeous black filly out of it so i think everyone did quite well out of the deal!
 
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This happened to me about 3yrs ago when the mare was pts after breaking a hind leg. The stud owner would not allow me to transfer to the other mare & soon after sold the stallion anyway.

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Thats really sad, surely it makes no difference to the stud which mare it is as long as its the same owner, and the mare meets any possible pre-agreed criteria for using that stallion.

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Some stallion owners would say that a free transferred return covering is not due becuase the stallion has 'done his job' by getting the mare in foal (esp if she is still in foal by 1 October). Of course that does not apply if there is a live foal guarantee and some stallion owners using 1 Oct terms could well have sympathy wth the mare owner and allow a free return (especially if the replacement mare is a nice one) so there is no harm in asking anyway.
 
At French Stallions we had two deaths of mares in foal to Jaguar Mail, both top event mares and very sad. Both owners were chuffed to bits that LFG meant LFG and so they were able to transfer onto another mare.

UK Breeders need to start being far more savvy when it comes to covering conditions, even changing their minds on a stallion if it means getting better conditions.
 
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Pat did you ever use the free return at the second stud???

Was just wondering whether you have seen their latest stallion
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No, not yet; it's costing me a lot more money than it's worth if I'm honest and I've got to the stage where I'd really like to tell her to stick it where the sun don't shine but that would be giving in! As it is ATM, I don't have a mare to send there so the saga will drag on for longer!
Swallow was my return mare and put up twins, they took too long to pinch one so had to abort and start again when she didn't hold and it was getting too late to try again so that was another livery bill and vet package down the drain let alone transport costs. I don't have the greatest faith in their vet department either if I'm honest because this was the second mare of mine they had mucked about with. At least Swallow wasn't looking too bad when SN and I collected her, the first mare and foal were hatracks, so much so, the mare had dried up but they soon came back to health when back on our grass. When I had a go at them, they couldn't have cared less. This is a stud that the same year was awarded the quality mark and approved; what a joke. I should have walked away then but the miser in me said 'why should she get away with £350 of mine for nothing and treating my mare and foal like that?'
Surely if you can't provide a service (as in the stallion nominated has died) the decent thing would have been to hand back at least some of the stud fee not say it has to be used on another of their stallions when none of those either suit or appeal? Not very good PR in my books and not as if it's costing them anything when they've already had livery charges from you.
Sorry, that went on a bit!
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** I've only seen pic's of him; he's quite nice but not a patch on his sire IMO!
 
The reason my mare had a free return is the stallion did not get her in-foal & therefore it was a free return. It was just very sad that she had to be pts & the stallion owner for financial reasons had to sell the stallion.
 
My mare was'nt in foal, she hadn't taken after 3 goes so we were going to leave it and start early in the year.(2008)
She was my only mare, have 2 geldings as well. Did look into loaning a broody but couldn't find one, buying one is difficult as insurance didn't pay out on my mare so replacing her would cost a fortune.
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What sad stories! Bad enough to lose a foal or a mare without the added financial loss! And it isn't always possible for a breeder to substitute another mare for a free return.

This is why my stallion's terms are Live Healthy Foal Guarantee - no booking fee, no deposit, no stud fee to pay at all until the breeder has a live, healthy foal on the ground.

I even wait 2 weeks after the foal is born before asking for the stud fee, to be sure that it is healthy and thriving.

I know this is very unusual, and some people think I am mad, but I feel quite strongly that breeders should not have to pay for anything less than a live, healthy foal.
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Wow htobago, you have certainly given me food for thought when and if I put my stallions on the open market.

As a breeder from my broodmares point of view a live, healthy foal is the main criteria and if all stallion owners offered this luxury, the whole process would be a lot more cost effective.
 
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Wow htobago, you have certainly given me food for thought when and if I put my stallions on the open market.

As a breeder from my broodmares point of view a live, healthy foal is the main criteria and if all stallion owners offered this luxury, the whole process would be a lot more cost effective.

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I'm afraid if all stallion owners offered this luxury, most of us would be broke! Many stallion breeders ARE a bit greedy - and demand the stud fee up front, with a free return if the mare fails to get in foal. I think that's not on - I charge the stud fee when the mare is collected - in foal - otherwise no stud fee payable (although we do theoretically charge a 'booking fee' - but it's only applied if owners don't give us a reasonable chance to get the mare in foal.)

I give a free return if no live foal - most people only give a free return if the mare is not in foal at 31st October. After all, the stallion owner and the stallion have done their job at this point. The rest is up to the mare owner. If a mare owner fails to care for the mare properly, or leaves it to foal unattended and the foal is lost, why should the stallion owner be the one out of pocket??
 
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I give a free return if no live foal - most people only give a free return if the mare is not in foal at 31st October. After all, the stallion owner and the stallion have done their job at this point. The rest is up to the mare owner. If a mare owner fails to care for the mare properly, or leaves it to foal unattended and the foal is lost, why should the stallion owner be the one out of pocket??


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By giving a free return if no live foal, isn't that the same as not asking for a stud fee until the mare has a live foal, the next season you will not be getting a stud fee for the covering. Really just means that with regards to stud fees you are a year ahead of htobago. Surely whether you get the fee up front or the fee when the foal is born it is still the single fee that you are getting.

I do agree, however, with the fact that once a stallion has done his job and the mare is in foal, it is out of the stallion owners hands what happens to the mare in the meantime. There are some people who would leave their mares to foal, unattended (unfortunately) and risk the life of both mare and foal. And as we all know there can also be tragedies that are out of anyones hands.

There really are two sides to this issue. Hmmmmmmm

A question : If the mare fails to take on the free return, what happens then, how long would this free return go on for.
 
Janet and Cruiseline I do take your point that the stallion has 'done his job' once the mare is in foal, and that losing a foal later on in pregnancy, or at birth, can sometimes be due to poor mare-care on the part of the breeder.

But I think this is quite rare - most breeders take good care of their mares, and if they lose a foal it is just very bad luck. And anyway, I'm prepared to accept that sometimes I may be out-of-pocket due to a breeder's negligence. At least most of the time I will be ensuring that nice breeders don't have a financial loss to add to the sadness of losing a foal.

For me, free returns and substitutions are just not good enough. What if, for whatever reason -death, illness, breeding problems, circumstances, etc.- the breeder cannot use the free return with the same mare? And what if they don't have another mare that would suit my stallion? Most of the breeders that I deal with spend months and months researching pedigrees, viewing stallions and very carefully selecting exactly the right stallion for a particular mare. To force them to send another mare or else forfeit the stud fee would be wrong, I feel.

So - if a breeder loses a foal or whatever and wants to send the mare back to my stallion, or to send another mare, I am happy for them to do so, and will give the same Live Healthy Foal Guarantee as the first time. But this is their choice - they are not obliged to do it. It just seems more fair to them this way.

But this is just my opinion and the way I like to do things - I'm not criticising anyone.
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Its a shame that my horses are not all show arabs, as I would love to deal with a stallion owner like you. But you have to agree that at times you will be out of pocket, which I suppose some stallion owners are just not prepared to do.

Will have to think about the terms I will use if and when my stallions stand.
 
Thanks cruiseline - breeders like you are a joy to deal with!

But seriously - yes, I do accept that occasionally I will be out-of-pocket with these unorthodox terms. And perhaps other stallion-owners would not want to risk this - fair enough!

I decided to offer these terms for purely altruistic reasons, just because it seemed kinder and more fair to breeders......but I am now beginning to think there may be unexpected benefits for me as well! So far, all of the breeders with Tobago-foals are planning to breed to him again (indeed, one has already put 2 more mares in foal to him). OK, this is obviously mainly because they are delighted with their Tobago-babies and want more, but I think it may also be because they feel that they can trust me, that I am on their side???

Dunno - what do you think? I could well be wrong, but it seems to me that if you offer generous terms and show that you are on their side, people are perhaps more inclined to come back to you again, to recommend your stallion to their friends, etc.???

I didn't do it for this reason - tbh as well as the sound 'altruistic' reasons, I also just have a pathetic desperate need for everyone to like me, and I absolutely hate asking people for money.

But I think other stallion owners might find that far from being out-of-pocket, they could actually benefit from offering these terms, in terms of 'goodwill', repeat business, recommendations, etc.???

Still just my opinion - and remember I am a naive novice newbie so could well be totally wrong!
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No I think you are right. There is not enough trust in the world today. I always say if someone is trusting, they are usually trustworth. I also agree that if you are offering a complete service from start to finish, then you will get people coming back.

However, I must say it does help when you have a boy like yours. I think maybe the so called greedyness comes about when a stallion owner is simply not getting the number of mares to cover the stallion's yearly cost.

I am in a way, in the same position as you. I buy my horses because I want them, it just so happens that several of them are stallions. If people want to use them at a later date that is a bonus, but my stallions have a career in competition, first and foremost. I would be obliged to cover the cost if they were a gelding or a mare anyway.
 
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But I think other stallion owners might find that far from being out-of-pocket, they could actually benefit from offering these terms, in terms of 'goodwill', repeat business, recommendations, etc.???

Still just my opinion - and remember I am a naive novice newbie so could well be totally wrong!
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Undoubtedly it would bring a lot of goodwill - but sadly there ARE people in this world who just take the p*ss. So my 'official' terms are 31st October, but I bend it for those who are genuine. But I HAVE been taken advantage of by a couple of people in the past - not charged a stud fee for a mare who lost a foal after I was reassured they would send another mare next year - they didn't, etc. Had someone send a mare, then whip her away when she didn't take first cycle, etc.

Keeping a stallion is an expensive business - treating mare owners (and their mares!) fairly and properly is one thing, but very few stallion owners can afford to shoulder all the losses for all their mare owners.
 
Very good points Janet. I do understand your position, and that my approach wouldn't work for everyone. There really was no criticism of other stallion owners intended or implied!

I do accept that I am probably being rather naive - and I've probably just been lucky that no breeders have taken advantage or ripped me off so far. We'll see if my luck holds out when the rest of this year's foals are born, and stud fees collected. I might well come back on here in August with egg on my face and feeling rather foolish!

But I'll still carry on with these terms, even if I do get ripped off occasionally. I operate generally (not just with horses) on the belief that at least 90% of people are decent and trustworthy (there is actually strong empirical/scientific evidence to back up this belief), and I accept that I just have to take my chances with the other 10%.

In a lifetime of trusting people, I've only once been seriously ripped off - a £950 loan to someone I barely knew, who then disappeared and never repaid it. I was very upset, but it didn't shake my belief that the vast majority are trustworthy, and I continue to trust people.

But I totally accept that this approach wouldn't work for everyone, and that it certainly isn't normal business practice.
 
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