What I would like to say to WHW and RSPCA

[VictoriaEDT]

This is what i would like to say to senior members of RSPCA and WHW (However, when i eventually get round to calming down a bit and get a chance to write to them in person I will be far more diplomatic!):

I would have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you just accepted and admitted that you made a monumental c**k up in the way that you treated the Stamford Horse investigation before we got involved. You know these horses would have died if they werent rescued.

We dont want to read e mails and press releases from you which are full of blatant excuses. You know you and your vet were wrong so please just do the right thing and dam well admit it.

 

[flowerlady]

V I don't think you should send that. I know you and the rest of us are angry but lets hope lessons have been learnt. An email like that would not do this forum any good either. Sorry I know you are probably only putting what you want to say but I don't in all honesty think that is the way forward. Changing the law as it stands leaving them helpless to do anything is what we should maybe trying to do with their help. Don't make enemies of those who in the future you may need.

I do know where you are coming from and I do think the vet concerned should be asked to explain themselves.

 

[My_chestnut_mare]

Well said!!!!!!

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Dont worry I am not sending that to them in e mail or letter form! Just expressing my anger on here! hoping someone might see it.

Dont worry I will be far more diplomatic when i write to them over of the weekend

 

[Destiny95]

I know the RSPCA and WHW aren't perfect but I think they do a lot of good (most of the time). Some countries (or should I say the animals in those countries) don't have any organisation standing up for them...

 

[flowerlady]

Phew!!

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Yes they do (or WHW does anyway)

I have just had countless dealings with the RSPCA in the past where they have been absolutely useless. They didnt manage to rescue one animal that was reported and in one case the police got involved and convescated the horse before it caused an RTA (sick bullied horse that looked like it had strangles kept escaping from pikey field near where i used to live onto the main road. I kept putting it back and RSPCA arrived and said that it was ok despite having bilateral nasal yellow discharge, swollen lymph glands and blood all over it where other horses had beaten it up. RSPCA drove off and the horse broke out again so i called the equine liason officer of hampshire constabulary who arranged a vet and transport for its removal straight away - the police footed the bill and were excellent).

 

[JM07]

Well, you certainly don't speak for myself.

I think quite a few members on here should just get off this hysterical, knee-jerk band waggon, stop slapping themselves on the back and take a deep breath.....

Yes, agreed, a good job was done here....but lets just not lose sight of the real fact here...
THIS IS THE TIP OF A VERY LARGE ICEBERG.

The WHW and to a lesser degree, the RSPCA deal with cases like this EVERY single day of the year..not just the one's HHO members choose to get involved in.

Where are all you puffed up self important members when ponies go from pillar to post, lame and abused, through bin-end sales, horse fairs, pikeys at the side of the road?

Nowhere, sadly...because if all you who chose to get involved yesterday went on a regular basis like Beeston, Henley, York, Reading and made the same amount of fuss, then a lot more horses and ponies throughout Britain wouldn't end up like "carrot ans spud" and they also could enjoy hay and a warm bed.

i'm not saying that yesterdays show of concern was not genuine...but what i am saying is that there is a whole bigger picture, with hundreds of equines waiting to be "found" and taken out of the same, or even a worse situation.

So no, OP, i will not join you or others in slating the RSPCA..or especially the WHW as they deal with uninmaginable things on a daily basis, with limited funding and even less powers of action.

instead of giving these organisations grief, get out there and get pro-active......

 

[oofadoofa]

The RSPCA did however manage to rescue a seagull with a suspected broken leg from our office roof. The lady over the road from us phoned and they were here within half an hour. Shame they can't act as quickly when something actually matters!

 

[LauraBR]

[ QUOTE ]

I am sure I speak for others on this forum as well as myself when I say that we would have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you just accepted and admitted that you made a monumental c**k up in the way that you treated the Stamford Horse investigation before we got involved. You know these horses would have died if they werent rescued.

We dont want to read e mails and press releases from you which are full of blatant excuses. You know you and your vet were wrong so please just do the right thing and dam well admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

By all means send your letter but please do not presume that you speak for everyone; your views are not shared by us all.

Given that I wasn't there when the RSPCA, WHW, and vet attended the horses, I didn't see their condition at the time, I'm not a trained vet, I do not know the ins and outs of welfare legislation or how a horse needs to present in order to be removable legally, I have no experience in successful rescue cases and I have no clue whatsoever about any steps the owner was able to demonstrate to the welfare authorities at the time that he was taking to try and improve the horses.... I shall be reserving judgement.

Not saying mistakes weren't made, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If you want to direct your anger at someone and point the finger of blame then the owner of the horses might be a better place to start.

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Thats fine JM07 I didnt say i spoke for everyone did i.

And as I stated in the post above yours; yes I have had countless dealings with the RSPCA re pigs, cattle and horses - not just yesterday.

I have also dealt with WHW which have been good in the past and kept me informed.

Hence, I really dont understand what you mean about being more pro -active?

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Ok I have edited the bit where i said " i am sure i speak for others as well as myself"

 

[Taboo1968]

[ QUOTE ]

By all means send your letter but please do not presume that you speak for everyone; your views are not shared by us all.
Given that I wasn't there when the RSPCA, WHW, and vet attended the horses, I didn't see their condition at the time, I'm not a trained vet, I do not know the ins and outs of welfare legislation or how a horse needs to present in order to be removable legally, I have no experience in successful rescue cases and I have no clue whatsoever about any steps the owner was able to demonstrate to the welfare authorities at the time that he was taking to try and improve the horses.... I shall be reserving judgement.
Not saying mistakes weren't made, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
If you want to direct your anger at someone and point the finger of blame then the owner of the horses might be a better place to start.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was actually the BHS welfare that were first on site, then the vet arrived, gave the authorisation for the removal of the horses and then last of all the RSPCA arrived.

 

[LauraBR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

By all means send your letter but please do not presume that you speak for everyone; your views are not shared by us all.
Given that I wasn't there when the RSPCA, WHW, and vet attended the horses, I didn't see their condition at the time, I'm not a trained vet, I do not know the ins and outs of welfare legislation or how a horse needs to present in order to be removable legally, I have no experience in successful rescue cases and I have no clue whatsoever about any steps the owner was able to demonstrate to the welfare authorities at the time that he was taking to try and improve the horses.... I shall be reserving judgement.
Not saying mistakes weren't made, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
If you want to direct your anger at someone and point the finger of blame then the owner of the horses might be a better place to start.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was actually the BHS welfare that were first on site, then the vet arrived, gave the authorisation for the removal of the horses and then last of all the RSPCA arrived.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP was about action taken prior to yesterday, as was my post you have quoted.

JM07- I totally agree with you.

 

[racheal]

Very well said.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
Where are all you puffed up self important members when ponies go from pillar to post, lame and abused, through bin-end sales, horse fairs, pikeys at the side of the road?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah JM, I think that's a bit unfair. Not everyone is in a position to do more than support the welfare organisations - who were formed to fight these problems on our behalf. I'm not saying that we should negate our responsibilites to these organisations. But people do what they can. And if demonstrating and supporting with their feet at a 'venue' near them is what they can do - then I think that's fair enough.

There is an enormous amount of suffering in the UK - look at the incident in North Wales. But people genuinly support the RSPCA etc. with the belief that they will prevent these things from happening, or at least put an immediate stop to it when it's found. Sadly experience shows us that this is very slow to happen - if it does.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I agree with Vic, IZT, JM and SS in varying degrees.

Perhaps now that more people have been exposed to the realities of what is and isn't being done in terms of horse welfare locally to them, they are now equipped with the knowledge and the momentum to do more to help other animals in distress.

I know that I have been spurred to offer more help to GSD rescue organisations through the "other" matter that has been mentioned here in recent days.

 

[PeterNatt]

I very much hope that there will be an independent report of this incident so that if any mistakes where made that they can be prevented from happening again.

In this instance the members of staff of the BHS at the Burleigh stand where shown photographs of the horses at 8.00 a.m. in the morning. They immediately contacted their Wefare Officers who made arrangements for a vet to inspect the horses. The vet agreed that they where suffering and arrangements where made (10. a.m.) to transport them to somewhere safe where they could be treated.

 

[Zebedee]

As always Peter a very well reasoned & balanced comment on an emotionally charged situation.
Sneering at the RSPCA or WHW on here isn't going to help. Maybe someones reading who would like to donate to one of those organisations & who now won't.
As JM has said in her usual eloquent manner this is only the tip of the iceburg. It is a case that has received a large amount of publicity & is therefore at the front of everybodys mind, but both these organisations do a huge amount of good in the greater scheme of things.
Yes mistakes were made - the vet who passed them as being ok needs to be investigated by the RCVS in my opinion, but lets please not forget that legally both the organisations had their hands tied. They cannot remove animal without the go ahead from a vet, which in this case was not forthcoming. I agree that a second veterinary opinion should have immediately been sought, & that the welfare of the animals should take precedence over any possible future prosecution.
My opinion only, I wouldn't go so far as to call peoples responses on here hysterical, but I do think there's too muchn being posted in this vein in the heat of the moment.

 

[Natch]

JM makes a lot of sense.

If "we" could get Carrot & Spud rescued within 24 hours, thats a hell of a power. Imagine what else "we" can do if we apply ourselves to it. Like OE for example.

I think, JM, what "we" (the HHOers of the UK) need is direction - most of us know what the problem is you are talking about, but not what to do to make a difference?

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Hysterical is probably that last thing anyone could call me!

.....just cross thats all

 

[_Libby_]

QR- JMO7 I totally agree

 

[glamourpuss]

QR - JM07 I'm another that totally agrees with you!

FWIW I'm not heartless I was shocked to my very core by those pictures, I will hold my hand up and say I sobbed when I heard that they were finally removed yesterday.

As I stated on a post yesterday, now is not the time to be jumping up and down spitting 'anger' at the RSPCA or WHW or trotting out previous anecdotes of their 'failings'.

HHO has demonstrated what it can achieve, why not now approach the RSPCA and WHW and help them?

The charities in question have stated several times that 'their hands were tied'.....so what can we do to help them prevent something like this happening again? What part of the legistation and red tape prevents them stepping in? How can the animal public help this? What campaigning can WE do to help them not be dictated to by stupid rules and actually able to help *when they need to*.

Ranting, sending horrible angry letters and slagging off a charity helps NO-ONE. But being proactive, offering help and trying to change the stupid burreaucracy which prevents them from using a vets second opinion (as an example) WILL.

 

[lucretia]

indeed, as you like to say JM.

 

[alwaysbroke]

Can see both sides here, but I know for a fact that it isnt the first time the RSPCA havent acted when asked, when I contacted them 2 yrs ago about ponies that were in a dreadful condition they were more interested in asking about my knowledge than actually visiting and assessing for themselves.
It took a week of phonecalls to get a visit, 2 of these ponies died, it was difficult to explain to my kids, and still dont understand it myself.

 

[Spudlet]

QR
Right - this is the law.
There are two ways for a charity - any charity - to take possesion of a neglected animal.

1. The owner voluntarily signs the animal over.
2. After a successful prosecution, a court grants possession of the animal to the charity. Please note - a successful prosecution DOES NOT mean that the animal will always be signed over. Please look up Delia Stacey - she was found guilty and banned but her horses were still returned to her to be sold rather than being signed over to a charity to be rehomed.

The first priority is always the welfare of the animal which is why most will try to get an animal signed over to them. However where this is not possible, the only option is to go for prosecution and try to get the animal signed over that way.

THAT is why WHW have said that they were so careful with the vets - they understand that although getting a 2nd opinion may help in the short term, by getting the animal temporarily removed, in the long term it makes it more likely that the animal will be returned to the neglectful owner.

Frankly, some of the comments by some posters on this forum on this case have sickened me and as a result I will not be posting on HHO again.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I am shocked at the venemous comments on this forum at times and also thankful that some people can see the wider picture. I too have had dealings with RSPCA and have found them frustrating but recognize that they must be equally frustrated too at not having unlimited resources to deal with every act of animal abuse they come across. Don't forget the people who work for this organisation because they really care about animals - they certainly won't be doing it for the money or the kudos!

According to RSPCA 2008 Annual report they dealt with 140,575 cruelty complaints, treated 214,000 animals, rehomed 70,017 animals. They also campaigned to improve animal cruelty laws, spent money educating and training people (preventing cases). Improved animal husbandry of chickens and worked on improving the lot of 482,000 veal calves. What a cra*p job they have done!!

There is only so much anyone can do and any organisation or individual could do more - but even if they did more there would be someone who thinks they should do even more. The fact is that there is a limit to how much anyone can do and it is always the squeaky wheel that gets the grease so while the Stamfords horses are thankfully being cared for due to the furore it caused you can bet that somewhere else there is another cruelty act not being dealt with because the resource is being applied to that case.

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Apologies it was not intended to be venemous - I was just very cross at the fact that WHW and RSPCA could not do over a number of weeks/months what the BHS managed to do within a few hours.

I understand the red tape but if BHS managed then why didnt WHW or RSPCA

 

[Spudlet]

Well sorry but venemous is a good word for how it sounded. I hope no one from WHW reads your post as I imagine they would be very hurt and upset.

The point is - yes the BHS got them out and that is great BUT - will it stand up? A vets opinion gained with from what I can gather an audience of 20 people, plus a journo, plus a huge internet furore going on at the same time? How will that look in court - like a totally unbiased opinion? When courts can order horses to be returned to JG, what effect exactly will this have on this case?

This could easily lead to the ponies returning to their owner and if that happens there will be nothing that can be done to help them. I hope I'm wrong but a happy ending here seems increasingly unlikely.

There is a reason that things are done the way that they are done.

 

[spookypony]

I've stayed very quiet on this issue, because I'm sitting up in Scotland with only the information from this forum to rely on. However, while I understand that many people feel frustration in their dealings with the RSPCA, I think we should keep one thing in mind: generally, people join an organisation such as WHW or RSPCA because they genuinely want to help the animals. They're not in it to get rich (that would be a very strange career choice); they're not in it for personal glory. A priori, we should assume these people are on the side of the angels. Thus, if some individual situation doesn't work out the way that we, in possession of only half the information if that, think it should, it behooves us to at least seriously listen to what these organisations have to say. Sometimes there will be cock-ups: they're only human. Sometimes, these may have very serious consequences for the animals involved. But please, let's not pour the baby out with the bathwater!