What insurance for a young rider who has lessons on my horse?!

[Ziggy10]

Hi all,
So fortnightly my friends daughter has a lesson on my horse and very occasionally hacks out with me [I use a yard horse]. I need to formalise this girls insurance to protect both of us in the event of an accident.... She is 12 and very competent but as we know accidents and injuries can happen! It would appear that she is not covered under the trainers insurance and we would like to arrange our own insurance. I am confused as it appears that most of the insurers quote a max of 10K for personal injury claims and as we live in a litigious society am concerned whether I could be sue in the event of an accident....? Thoughts and experiences please!
TIA.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes her parents could sue in event of an accident and you also may be sued by a third party .
You need to talk to the insurer who has your third party cover about the situation asap.

 

[Ziggy10]

Yes her parents could sue in event of an accident and you also may be sued by a third party .
You need to talk to the insurer who has your third party cover about the situation asap.

We are with NFU but they won’t add her because she is not a family member.

 

[Goldenstar]

We are with NFU but they won’t add her because she is not a family member.

I assume you mean she not covered for damages to a third party .
Are you covered if she is injured and you are found negligent ?

 

[J&S]

How about she or her family become BHS Gold members?

 

[Orangehorse]

The NFU does a Rider Insurance, but I don't know if that would cover a 12 year old. I think that being a minor might be a slight problem.
What if she became a Pony Club member?

 

[ycbm]

You need two things.

Insurance in case somebody sues you for damage your young rider causes while riding or handling your horse.

Insurance in case the child has an accident and the parents decide to sue you.

These might be covered in your existing 3rd party insurance, since she is riding at your invitation, but as GS says you need to check the small print before she rides your horse again.

If the parents of the child are sensible they will also obtain third party insurance in case somebody sues them for something their child does, but that's their problem not yours.

 

[maya2008]

When I had sharers, my insurance with NFU covered third party still with them riding, as they were riding under my supervision and with my permission. If they had a lesson, the instructor’s insurance covered both. In terms of if they got hurt by the horse, I recommended personal accident insurance and left the parents to decide. Does this girl pay to borrow your horse?

 

[Red-1]

There are many insurances.

1. A third party sues you, as owner and adult present, if their car/dog/leg or whatever is damaged/injured.

2. Third party cover in case the child rider is injured and the parents come after you.

3. personal injury cover, in case the child needs dental work or whatever, this is usually what is around 10K.

4. Insurance to cover the horse/tack in case they are injured damaged whilst the child is riding.

The first two are the most important, IMO, and would both come under general 3rd party cover.

The personal injury cover, no 3, is for the child's parents to arrange and claim on. Their choice.

No 4, will generally be covered by your own policy as long as you inform the insurance company and check.

The first two, if NFU won't cover you, you may need to either change companies or get a stand alone policy. I had this with Rigsby, a few friends wanted to ride. They could get their own 3rd party cover, but then there were 4 or so people riding him, so for 4 people to join the BHS it was not really economical.

I looked at me joining the BHS, or Harry Hall, but no, they say it would only cover for an infrequent rider, not a regular one.

I have ended up with the dreaded E&L, which was about £6 a month for whoever rode him. It may only be for 1 million. But, it is cheap and is cover, we are also with Harry Hall, so if it is an infrequent rider they would be covered on this up to 10 million was it?

E&L were actually so nice to deal with, they 'won' my posher horse! When I did that, I got 10% discount on the policy, so Rigsby's became free.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

My daughter has had rider insurance with NFU since she was 12…but also her horse was insured by them so I’m not sure if that is why.

 

[muddybay]

I started loaning a pony when I was 13 and the loan agreement stipulated that I had to have a BHS gold membership

 

[Orangehorse]

When I had sharers, my insurance with NFU covered third party still with them riding, as they were riding under my supervision and with my permission. If they had a lesson, the instructor’s insurance covered both. In terms of if they got hurt by the horse, I recommended personal accident insurance and left the parents to decide. Does this girl pay to borrow your horse?

The third party covers someone else, not the rider. So if the horse and rider together, or the rider falls off and the horse does damage to someone else's property - e.g. a car, or someone's garden - then you are covered for this damage.

You

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

You need two things.

Insurance in case somebody sues you for damage your young rider causes while riding or handling your horse.

Insurance in case the child has an accident and the parents decide to sue you.

These might be covered in your existing 3rd party insurance, since she is riding at your invitation, but as GS says you need to check the small print before she rides your horse again.

If the parents of the child are sensible they will also obtain third party insurance in case somebody sues them for something their child does, but that's their problem not yours.

This

 

[Ziggy10]

I assume you mean she not covered for damages to a third party .
Are you covered if she is injured and you are found negligent ?

Hi, at the mo she is not insured at all and it worries me greatly! We are going for BHS gold which will cover third party and personal injury up to £5k. Spoken to several brokers and they say if the child were to have an injury during a riding lesson (paid for by an independent trainer) then her insurance should cover that. However the trainer said it doesn’t.
The real difficulty is finding insurance to cover us if we were to be sued, can’t get a straight answer from anyone….

 

[Ziggy10]

This

Can’t seem to get insurance to cover us against being sued. Most say it’s the riding instructor who would be sued….but what happens if she is hacking out?!

 

[Red-1]

Hi, at the mo she is not insured at all and it worries me greatly! We are going for BHS gold which will cover third party and personal injury up to £5k. Spoken to several brokers and they say if the child were to have an injury during a riding lesson (paid for by an independent trainer) then her insurance should cover that. However the trainer said it doesn’t.
The real difficulty is finding insurance to cover us if we were to be sued, can’t get a straight answer from anyone….

If she is a regular rider, she would also need the BHS insurance. When I pressed them for details, they told me that it is the person who is insured (the member) not the actual horse. Yes, you would be absolved from paying if there were an accident, but the rider needs their own insurance in case they are sued (although the bHS did say that it is more likely that the owner would be if the owner is insured and the rider was not). I know, clear as mud!

Hence I ended up with Harry hall for higher cover for myself and E&L a lower but still substantial cover for the horse to cover any rider - regular or not! It is about £6 per cover, so £12 a month isn't extortionate.

 

[Ziggy10]

There are many insurances.

1. A third party sues you, as owner and adult present, if their car/dog/leg or whatever is damaged/injured.

2. Third party cover in case the child rider is injured and the parents come after you.

3. personal injury cover, in case the child needs dental work or whatever, this is usually what is around 10K.

4. Insurance to cover the horse/tack in case they are injured damaged whilst the child is riding.

The first two are the most important, IMO, and would both come under general 3rd party cover.

The personal injury cover, no 3, is for the child's parents to arrange and claim on. Their choice.

No 4, will generally be covered by your own policy as long as you inform the insurance company and check.

The first two, if NFU won't cover you, you may need to either change companies or get a stand alone policy. I had this with Rigsby, a few friends wanted to ride. They could get their own 3rd party cover, but then there were 4 or so people riding him, so for 4 people to join the BHS it was not really economical.

I looked at me joining the BHS, or Harry Hall, but no, they say it would only cover for an infrequent rider, not a regular one.

I have ended up with the dreaded E&L, which was about £6 a month for whoever rode him. It may only be for 1 million. But, it is cheap and is cover, we are also with Harry Hall, so if it is an infrequent rider they would be covered on this up to 10 million was it?

E&L were actually so nice to deal with, they 'won' my posher horse! When I did that, I got 10% discount on the policy, so Rigsby's became free.

Hi, Third party insurance doesn’t cover for injury to the rider. We are going for BHS but this gives Third party if the rider/horse damages an other and personal injury up to 5k. Getting insurance beyond this seems a big issue! We can’t find a broker that will provide insurance to cover us, as the owners, should our young friend have a serious injury and we be sued! The brokers say the instructor would be sued as part of a lesson but what about hacking out?

 

[Red-1]

Hi, Third party insurance doesn’t cover for injury to the rider. We are going for BHS but this gives Third party if the rider/horse damages an other and personal injury up to 5k. Getting insurance beyond this seems a big issue! We can’t find a broker that will provide insurance to cover us, as the owners, should our young friend have a serious injury and we be sued! The brokers say the instructor would be sued as part of a lesson but what about hacking out?

My household policy covers me third party for this.

 

[Ziggy10]

Hi all, thanks for the many responses but it would appear tougher than you would think! We will join the BHS which gives third party cover and personal injury up to 5k. This ticks some of the boxes but 5k goes nowhere if you end up with a life changing injury! The broker P’s say the instructor should have insurance to cover the lessons but we will need to source personal accident cover for the rider. Hacking out we need to cover somehow.
Who knew that helping a friends love of horses could be so complicated!

 

[tda]

Interested as my 9yr old niece want to come and ride, and bring her friend. We would only be hacking with them being led.
I've read all thru this thread and its still unclear about my liability to the two of them. I suppose it depends on someone being able to prove I was negligent in some way if an accident occurred

 

[Art Nouveau]

Wouldn't the instructor's insurance only cover them if they were negligent, and it was the negligence that caused the injury?

I know there's strict liability if a horse escapes and causes damage (ie no negligence needed) but I don't think instructors would be held strictly liable.

There was a case where an owner had to pay out millions due to a child being injured, but I think the specifics of that case meant the owner had been negligent.

 

[Red-1]

Wouldn't the instructor's insurance only cover them if they were negligent, and it was the negligence that caused the injury?

I know there's strict liability if a horse escapes and causes damage (ie no negligence needed) but I don't think instructors would be held strictly liable.

There was a case where an owner had to pay out millions due to a child being injured, but I think the specifics of that case meant the owner had been negligent.

In that case, the owner hadn't done what I would have but the owner was not experienced. The child was more experienced than the owner, and had ridden the horse before. It was a wake-up call for sure.

 

[Goldenstar]

Hi, at the mo she is not insured at all and it worries me greatly! We are going for BHS gold which will cover third party and personal injury up to £5k. Spoken to several brokers and they say if the child were to have an injury during a riding lesson (paid for by an independent trainer) then her insurance should cover that. However the trainer said it doesn’t.
The real difficulty is finding insurance to cover us if we were to be sued, can’t get a straight answer from anyone….

You can’t cover the trainer’s liability if she is not covered for teaching children then you must find a trainer who is .
The personal injury part of the gold is really nothing more than an add on it covers very title and things it does cover would not be alleviated much by 5k .
You take a huge risk having this child ride your horse with knowing you have cover for her you are one trip away from losing everything .

 

[maya2008]

The third party covers someone else, not the rider. So if the horse and rider together, or the rider falls off and the horse does damage to someone else's property - e.g. a car, or someone's garden - then you are covered for this damage.

You

As the riders were children it would have been me being sued anyway. I rang NFU and asked at the time - my ponies were covered for damage they might do (3rd party) and vets fees so long as I had given permission for the rider to ride them. It may have changed since, that was 8-11 years ago, but I remember double checking direct with insurers at the time.

OP:
If the instructor is not covered to teach children, it does not prevent any injury to horse or child that occurs as a result of her teaching, being directly liable to her. She can be sued for damages whether she does or does not have insurance.

Can you ring BHS legal hotline if a member and ask exactly what you need to try and get to cover you?

To be fair, I completely understand your worry. I also wonder, if the whole situation makes you so uncomfortable, why it’s going ahead? You have so many danger points:
- an uninsured instructor, whose decisions may or may not injure child or horse
- child handling horse potentially without you there. Now this gives a whole new level of risk. I always checked my ponies over and the tack before sharers were allowed on - they’re not exactly great as a group at spotting issues. Now those issues can cause danger while ridden - a girth done up over a sore or tick attached, inadequate brushing causing rubbing, saddlecloth with bits of hay/grass seeds stuck under it, a stone in a hoof, lame for another reason, a bit of stitching that looked fine yesterday but isn’t ok today… Even if the instructor says they will check, will they really? And can they actually tell the difference between lameness and behaviour/riding issues? So could they tell child to push and push a horse who is saying ‘ouch’ and cause an accident?