What is a 'problem horse'?

[MizElz]

A post on an earlier thread has got me thinking.....

How would you decide what makes a 'problem' or 'naughty' horse? For instance, I have never considered my horse to be either of these things, but as another forum member has pointed out:

she weaves
she will nip if you give her the chance
she's not beyond throwing in the odd buck (normally 3 at the beginning of every hacking canter)
she won't lunge
she is VERY spooky
she's not averse to digging her toes in every now and again
she will kick out at horses/dogs if they get too close (though never a human)

would you say this makes her a naughty horse? personally, I have seen people battling with horses that rear/bolt/nap/refuse constantly/are bu**ers to load/wont stand on their own/kick stables to pieces......and i feel comparatively blessed! just wondered what your thoughts were?

 

[Starbucks]

I don't think she sounds like a problem horse - but maybe a naughty horse!

 

[Tinkerbee]

we are always buying in "problem horses" or having them at livery to discover thats its usually just "problem owners"

most have been cleaned up, had the problems knocked out of them

and sold on as perfect ladies and gentlemen

the exception being Roland

he was a rearer, and after a good 9 months we thought he was sorted...but no...he went psycho and reared and fell on V

think he went to the meatman in the end

 

[kerilli]

i reckon that if they do more-or-less what you want them to do, without making a fuss, then they're not a problem horse. napping, rearing, bucking, refusing when everything's right, kicking, biting, would all earn them the label from me.

 

[hannahandteddy]

my friends got a problem horse, she's bad in the trailor, is an arse out hunting, dosen't hack on her own, rears now and again, kicks if she decides she doesn't want you to do things with her, doesn't jump at shows (although she jumps 4ft easily at home), is extremly head shy and won't be clipped unless she's had ACP tablets or is twitched. thats my idea of a problem horse although some people might disagree. she's also classed as a naughty horse lol. but i love her in my own little way even though her owner is fed up with her and selling her lol!!!

 

[Tia]

Yes I would say all of the things your horse does makes her a naughty horse, in my opinion, and I wouldn't accept her getting away with any of these things.

I agree with Tinkerbees comments; often it is not the horse that is inherently naughty, it is very often down to the owner not respecting that it is a horse they are dealing with and not a human. Horses need clear signs and you can't waver from them otherwise the horse can become confused or start to take liberties.

I wouldn't tolerate a horse behaving in any of those examples you have given. None of those things are acceptable to me and no way would I be able to sell horses who behaved like that, hence if those sorts of "habits" commence, then they are quickly nipped in the bud immediately.

 

[FinellaGlen]

I am sorry but not all problem horses are caused by problem owners. I bought a horse for OH a few months ago and he has turned out to have major problems. He has been away twice for re-schooling to trainers who specialise in problem horses and neither has been able to do anything with him. He is very inconsistent and will sometimes hack out ok-ish but on his bad days (i.e. most days) he will buck and buck until he gets you off. I am not talking about just getting me off - he has had everyone off who has ridden him since I bought him.

I had a mare for 6 years previously who was very well behaved and I have had a Highland pony for the past two months who is a little angel. She can be cheeky but she is my dream horse. Since I am the same person and treat all my horses the same, ride them the same etc. I don't see how I am to blame for my problem horses behaviour?

 

[Tinkerbee]

i remember one horse who came for training, was bargy, a danger on roads, vicious and wouldnt load AT ALL

after a few days he was an angel, but anyway, when they came to pick him up, he was a sod again

as he walked across the yard the horse tripped and the owner says "oh did the nasty stone trip you up...poor boy" and "poor boy" proceeds to tank off with owner

had to have a word with them...stop tidbits, be firm WISE UP

argh

then loading... he wouldnt go near the ramp as the owner stood on it tugging and talking sweetly

horse justs stood there laughing

M took charge, walked over, yanked rope, spoke firmly, and on he went

 

[FinellaGlen]

Tinkerbee - I am very firm with my horses if I need to be. I don't mollycoddle any of them but my problem horse would go straight up if you told him off because he is a bag of nerves. Being firm isn't the answer with him. I don't know what it is that he needs to be honest but firmness only makes him worse and he will pull away in a blind panic on the ground or buck you off if he's under saddle. I think that you are oversimplifying problem horses behaviours.

 

[Tia]

Finella; I didn't say "all", I said "often" and I made no mention of problem horses, I said naughty horses.

Tinkerbee; I chuckled at that - been there, seen it....

 

[Tinkerbee]

Oh I wasnt saying thats the way to do it with all horses, but this "problem horse" was cured as soon as the owner left the yard

some horses have a genuine fear that needs dealt with

Fingle

was just a clever sod

 

[FinellaGlen]

Ok, thanks both. I think I am just sensitive about my problem horse. I definitely don't blame myself for his problems and I would hate to think that anyone else did.

 

[Tia]

Just a thought about your other horse; how old is he and do you have any idea how old he was when he was broken?

 

[FinellaGlen]

He is 9 Tia and I have no concrete information on him. I bought him from a dealer and managed to trace his previous owner who had had him all of a fortnight, was chucked off 3 times shortly after mounting and decided to sell him on! I also traced the dealer in Wales (where he came from before he reached the dealer in the West Midlands from whom I bought him) but he claimed not to even remember the horse. I get the impression that he has been passed from pillar to post.

To be honest I am running out of money to keep him myself. He would probably like being a field ornament and I would be happy to give him a way as a companion but you relinquish control if you do that and who knows what could happen? I am thinking of having him PTS because he appears to be unrideable. I expect I will get a lot of flack for saying this but I think it is kinder than sending him to an uncertain future when he may have been through a lot before I bought him.

 

[FinellaGlen]

I forgot to say he may have been broken late for all I am aware but he works very well in an outline, is responsive off the leg and soft mouthed so doesn't act like I would expect a youngster or late broken horse would possibly act.

 

[Tia]

I had a mare like this. She is a lovely mare to handle on the ground, however she just would not accept being ridden. You could happily sit on her, no problems, but the minute you asked for her to walk on, she would take the biggest fit and buck and buck like a loony.

I broke her 3 times; each time starting from total scratch and each time I could never get beyond this point. She was absolutely perfect lunging, free schooling, long reining, had no issue with saddle on but couldn't accept a human being on top.

Her problem was that she was 8 and had been a broodmare for all of her life. There was no way there was anything physically wrong with this mare, she just knew what she wanted out of life and that sure as heck wasn't you or anyone else on her back!

I gave her away to a friend of mine who breeds and she will live there for the rest of her life and never be ridden. Some horses, no matter how nice, kind, clear, firm, patient you are, just never accept being ridden - I wonder if your horse is this sort or whether he really does have something wrong which no-one has been able to find out?

If he was mine, and I am in no way saying you should take my advice over this, he would likely be put to sleep. No way would I pass on a horse like this; not fair on another person and certainly not fair on the horse.

 

[FinellaGlen]

I have had two physios and two vets out to see him and no-one has found anything wrong. I wish they had so that I knew it was a physical thing and could have it treated if possible. He does have a lovely nature and I have always found him good to handle on the ground although if he feels threatened at all he goes up and/or pulls back until he breaks his headcollar. He has never reared up on me but I think he trusts me to look after him.

Thank you for your support on the PTS issue. I cannot pass on a horse which may be a danger to himself or others and I don't have anyone to whom I could give him and be sure that he would have a permanent non-ridden home.

 

[Tia]

It's tough.

 

[MizElz]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I would say all of the things your horse does makes her a naughty horse, in my opinion, and I wouldn't accept her getting away with any of these things.

I agree with Tinkerbees comments; often it is not the horse that is inherently naughty, it is very often down to the owner not respecting that it is a horse they are dealing with and not a human. Horses need clear signs and you can't waver from them otherwise the horse can become confused or start to take liberties.

I wouldn't tolerate a horse behaving in any of those examples you have given. None of those things are acceptable to me and no way would I be able to sell horses who behaved like that, hence if those sorts of "habits" commence, then they are quickly nipped in the bud immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

well thank you Tia, for your 'well informed' opinions; i would like to see how you would begin to stop my horse from doing these things.
how do you 'nip in the bud' a horse that weaves at meal times? by cross tying her in the doorway, perhaps? or chasing her away from the door? we have anti weave bars installed; it helps, but its not perfect.
the lunging issue we are trying to resolve with time and care, but she has been very badly frightened by a previous owner, and consequently is not 'naughty' on the lunge, just simply terrified.
the nipping, yes; this is a bad habit; she does not do it to me, or to my mum or OH, or anyone else she has learnt to respect, but would do it if given the chance with someone less keyed in.
spookiness....i would like to see how you would rid this habit? i have NEVER known of a spooky horse turn into a plod; she has improved a little since i have had her. she is nervous, and i cant see this changing any time soon.
kicking out - wat can you do? she gets a slap if she does it in my presence, and i take all the necessary responsible precautions to ensure that if she does kick out, she doesnt hurt anyone/thing.

so, Tia, i would be interested to visit your place, to meet your troop of impeccably mannered animals. my word, if they are all as perfect as you say, we all have a lot to learn! I am fully aware it is a horse i am dealing with, not a human; I would be a fool if i didnt. if i had a horse as well mannered as you are insisting they should be, i doubt i would get as much fun from horsemanship as i do now!!!

 

[Tia]

You are more than welcome to come and visit my farm and meet all my well behaved horses

. Feel free to think what you like about my horses; I tend to work on the "proof is in the pudding" theory - how in the world do you think I sell them within no time of advertising them and how do I make so much profit selling them, if they are not as described? I have a good reputation and I only sell good horses - that's why.

You asked a question as to whether, in our opinion, we classed the things your horse does as naughty - I answered yes. Were you expecting most of us to say no?

I know it's been said a hundred times by so many other posters but I'll give it a try this time; why do you continually make threads asking what we all think if you don't like hearing other people's comments?

 

[Tia]

And to specifically answer your questions:

[ QUOTE ]
how do you 'nip in the bud' a horse that weaves at meal times

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd never ever in a million years buy a weaver, let alone allow it on my yard.
[ QUOTE ]
the lunging issue we are trying to resolve with time and care

[/ QUOTE ]
How long have you been trying and what are you doing to help resolve it?
[ QUOTE ]
she has been very badly frightened by a previous owner, and consequently is not 'naughty' on the lunge, just simply terrified

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why don't you, quite simply, desensitise her?
[ QUOTE ]
nipping, yes; this is a bad habit

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes you're right it is. You feeding her polos from your hand will not help this situation either.
[ QUOTE ]
i have NEVER known of a spooky horse turn into a plod

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Gosh all of my youngsters are spooky to begin with - none are remotely spooky when they leave here.
[ QUOTE ]
if i had a horse as well mannered as you are insisting they should be, i doubt i would get as much fun from horsemanship as i do now!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
And herein lies your BIG problem

. You like your horse to act like an antisocial jerk, so you allow it. If you had a well behaved horse you believe you wouldn't have any fun? Oh dear - well you have answered all the questions I might have had.

 

[Tinkerbee]

"i have NEVER known of a spooky horse turn into a plod "


so all those plods at Riding schools etc where never frisky youngsters? lol

 

[MizElz]

[ QUOTE ]
and herein lies your BIG problem

. You like your horse to act like an antisocial jerk, so you allow it. If you had a well behaved horse you believe you wouldn't have any fun? Oh dear - well you have answered all the questions I might have had.

[/ QUOTE ]

my word, how rude u can be

you are right. i did ask what people's opinions are, and im perfectly content to accept that my horse is a bit naughty sometimes. it is just something iv never really considered before; im not saying that she's an angel, but i wouldnt, personally, immediately describe her as 'naughty' or problematic.

as for wishing her to be an anti social jerk, well, im not even going to dignify that with a response. you obviously have bad opinion of me; i cant say i have the best one of you. if you think that i am some immature kid who likes to create trouble and let her horse walk all over her, then, equally, i have you down as someone who likes to think she knows rather more than anybody else, and who thinks she is being civil when in fact, she is actually stirring. but hey! this is my opinion, and im not going to let it cloud any discussion i may have with you - in fact, id go as far as to say i enjoy these discussions - i have very strong beliefs in how i conduct myself in life, and, as far as my horse is concerned, i dont wish to change a thing! so im not going to ship her off my yard because she weaves (btw - she developed this after she came to us, as the horse opposite her at our old yard was a weaver) and i am NOT going to stop feeding her polos.

well, im off to tuck my Anti Social Jerk in for the night.....look forward to our discussions tomorrow

 

[ThomasTank]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and herein lies your BIG problem

. You like your horse to act like an antisocial jerk, so you allow it. If you had a well behaved horse you believe you wouldn't have any fun? Oh dear - well you have answered all the questions I might have had.

[/ QUOTE ]

my word, how rude u can be

you are right. i did ask what people's opinions are, and im perfectly content to accept that my horse is a bit naughty sometimes. it is just something iv never really considered before; im not saying that she's an angel, but i wouldnt, personally, immediately describe her as 'naughty' or problematic.

as for wishing her to be an anti social jerk, well, im not even going to dignify that with a response. you obviously have bad opinion of me; i cant say i have the best one of you. if you think that i am some immature kid who likes to create trouble and let her horse walk all over her, then, equally, i have you down as someone who likes to think she knows rather more than anybody else, and who thinks she is being civil when in fact, she is actually stirring. but hey! this is my opinion, and im not going to let it cloud any discussion i may have with you - in fact, id go as far as to say i enjoy these discussions - i have very strong beliefs in how i conduct myself in life, and, as far as my horse is concerned, i dont wish to change a thing! so im not going to ship her off my yard because she weaves (btw - she developed this after she came to us, as the horse opposite her at our old yard was a weaver) and i am NOT going to stop feeding her polos.

well, im off to tuck my Anti Social Jerk in for the night.....look forward to our discussions tomorrow

[/ QUOTE ]
Flaming nora !!!
Did you once wonder what you do to p$ss people off

I fely quite sorry for you at the beginning, but now...............

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
she weaves
she will nip if you give her the chance
she's not beyond throwing in the odd buck (normally 3 at the beginning of every hacking canter)
she won't lunge
she is VERY spooky
she's not averse to digging her toes in every now and again
she will kick out at horses/dogs if they get too close (though never a human)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm naughty, potentially problematic (just like her owner). Have to say I'm with you and not your Mum about breeding from her.

 

[JM07]

the one thats unfortunate enough to have a "problem owner"!!

 

[Blackhawk]

A lot of things you've mentioned can be solved.

What do you mean when you say she won't lunge?

 

[bensababy]

Id say shes naughty -

the fact she wont lunge - is this naughtyness? or have you had her checked for back/muscle probs?

digging toes in - sheer stubboness IMO

Nipping - naughty - no excuse.

 

[MizElz]

[ QUOTE ]
Id say shes naughty -

the fact she wont lunge - is this naughtyness? or have you had her checked for back/muscle probs?

digging toes in - sheer stubboness IMO

Nipping - naughty - no excuse.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL looks like i have been deluding myself then - i am the owner of a naughty horse! ah well, iv coped this far! (and so has she!)

i have spoken about the lunging issue before - she was badly frightened, having been badly lunged, just before we got her. the person lunging her thought that all you had to do was let the rein go, crack the whip, get horse galloping and keep it going in circles until it got tired

it makes me mad to think of it; poor elz is simply terrified now - the first couple of times i lunged her, she went so frantic trying to get away from the lunge whip that she slipped and fell, which pretty much put me off as well as her

now iv got a v good instructor who is helping me to get ellie to understand that lunging is good, and will not hurt her if done properly, but its a v long process!

the digging-toes in doesnt happen often - normally only if there are tractors around(!) and when she is in use...LOL

and as for her nipping....i fear i havent helped matters here, i will admit

as she is a lone horse, i have taken over as back scratcher, and she scratches me in return....consequently, her 'rubbing' can occasionally lead to teeth being involved; its not that she means to bite, but at the same time, i wouldnt trust her with, say, a young un-horsey child; i'd need to be on hand to keep her actions appropriate!

bless her, i cant help but feel i have done her an injustice; again, maybe i am TOO honest (my mum has read what i wrote about Ellie yesterday and had forty fits - "thats not Ellie! she only weaved at old yard, only bucks when fresh, only nips by accident...." and so on, if you get my drift

she is, in fact, a lovely girl, as anyone who has ever had the pleasure of knowing her would tell you!

 

[Ruggers]

All MizElz asked was if her horse is classed as a 'problem' horse, she didnt need insults thrown at her from the immaculate Tia and her wonderful yard. MizElz i wouldn't class your horse as a problem horse it just had a few niggles and seems like she has lots of attitude. which dont seem major . I class a problem horse as a horse that you don't enjoy riding on handling. as that would take the pleasure out of owning a horse.