what is "cream dun"?

[LessThanPerfect]

Hi,
Noticed when browsing on horse selling sites a number of ponies, often Highlands, described as cream dun but the photo accompanying the advert looks like a grey horse with light coloured points. Are these being described inaccurately in the adverts or am I misunderstanding the term "cream dun"? I always thought duns had black points.
Thanks

 

[JFTDWS]

grey dun:

cream dun

They're completely different colour schemes

 

[LessThanPerfect]

I can see a difference in your pics, thanks, but I have seen pics on adverts with light manes, tails, legs etc described as cream dun and that is what is confusing me. Why are they cream dun and not just cream if they don't have dark points?

 

[JFTDWS]

Grey / cream duns do grey out over time, and their dark points become less obvious. They still carry the dun gene though and are technically dun.

 

[NeverSayNever]

they will have dorsal stripes, or the remnants of one. Highlands change colour amazingly as they mature and what can be a very striking & genetically correct ‘cream dun’ as a 3 /4 year old can still almost completely grey out. Highland ponies do tend to have their own colour terms Same pony probably would just be grey if it was something else

 

[JFTDWS]

The grey dun in my post above is 8 in that pic (today, in fact ). Here he is as a 3 year old...

 

[LessThanPerfect]

Right, get you now, thanks both of you. Just when you think you know how to describe horse colours something throws a blinder at you! Now if I ever get asked that in a test/exam I'll know the answer and be able to explain it.

Lovely ponies by the way, love Highlands!

 

[Equi]

My version of cream dun is vastly different...she is registered as cream dun.

 

[Stroppy Mare]

Is she nit a palomino equi - she has no black points/mane/tail?

 

[NeverSayNever]

she has a dorsal stripe though SM.

interesting info here, have a look at the fox fun at the bottom
http://www.somis.dundee.ac.uk/~amdouglas/highland/colours.htm

 

[ester]

equi I'm presuming yours has both the cream and dun dilutions. = cream dun

JFTD are highland cream duns genetically cream + dun or black/brown + dun and just referred to as cream dun with regards to the different shades they come in?

OP this is quite a nice site for colours and their associated genetics.
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html

afaik fox fun would normally be referred to as a red dun.

 

[ester]

ooh I just remembered one of Enfys mares is a 'dunalino' so chestnut+cream+dun = looks palo but with dorsal stripe.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Highlands do have the Dun gene. Many 'duns' in the UK are really buckskin which has nothing to do with the dun gene as it's caused by Cream.

SM - I think that you have confused buckskin and dun - chestnut based duns certainly don't have black points but do have the genuine, real Dun gene.

Ester is quite right, you can get horses with both the dun and cream genes.

A dorsal stripe does not always equal the dun gene as they can also be caused by countershading. http://www.grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.htm

 

[LessThanPerfect]

So is the dun gene actually a dilution or dilution modifier gene then rather than a "colour" in the sense it is generally used?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The Dun gene is a dominant gene (eg the horse only needs one copy to be Dun and there is no visible difference between a horse with one copy and a horse with two - given the same base colour). It modifies the base colour - remember the only two base colours are black and chestnut (with no white as white markings are caused by other genes).

Buckskin is caused by having a black horse + agouti (A version) + one copy of cream. As cream is an incomplete dominant, there is a visible difference between horses with one copy and horses with two copies. A black + agouti (A version) + 2 Cream, for example, is a perlino. Cream also causes Palomino, cremello, smoky black, smoky cream, brown buckskin and cream brown.

With Dun, Black + dun is sometimes called grullo or grulla.

 

[khalswitz]

There is about a million different types of 'dun' according to Highlands and their terminology (I know nothing about the genetics Faracat so do excuse me). Cream dun, mouse dun, bay dun, red dun...

I worked for a while at a stud, and we would classify each like this:

Cream dun, a cream-coloured coat often with darker cream dapples (NOT dappled grey, much more subtle), and dark points and dorsal stripe usually with dark mane and tail, although this could lighten with age. From this:

To this:

Mouse dun, sort of mousy-brown colour with dark points and dorsal stripe. Sometimes with the dappling in a darker mouse colour.

Bay dun, essentially a bright bay colour but with the dorsal stripe and sometimes tiger stripes on hind legs too

Red dun, essentially a kind of pale chestnut with dorsal stripe and often tiger markings

Would be interested to find out what the genetics is though?

ETA anything with the grey gene that started out dun was a grey dun. You could tell it was a grey dun by whether there were white hairs on the face as a foal - then you knew it would grey out.

 

[LessThanPerfect]

There is about a million different types of 'dun' according to Highlands and their terminology (I know nothing about the genetics Faracat so do excuse me). Cream dun, mouse dun, bay dun, red dun...

I worked for a while at a stud, and we would classify each like this:

Cream dun, a cream-coloured coat often with darker cream dapples (NOT dappled grey, much more subtle), and dark points and dorsal stripe usually with dark mane and tail, although this could lighten with age. From this:

To this:

Mouse dun, sort of mousy-brown colour with dark points and dorsal stripe. Sometimes with the dappling in a darker mouse colour.

Bay dun, essentially a bright bay colour but with the dorsal stripe and sometimes tiger stripes on hind legs too

Red dun, essentially a kind of pale chestnut with dorsal stripe and often tiger markings

Would be interested to find out what the genetics is though?

ETA anything with the grey gene that started out dun was a grey dun. You could tell it was a grey dun by whether there were white hairs on the face as a foal - then you knew it would grey out.

It was adverts with pictures like your top example that were confusing me, sort of creamy colour without darker points. thanks everyone for taking the time to explain it to me.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

K - the top one looks grey to me.

 

[windand rain]

Cream duns start out with dark manes and tails and sort of fade to cream not grey
mother and daughter

both cream dun highlands mum looks white but is in fact cream with dapples
mum is 19 baby is 5
mum as a two year old

 

[Meowy Catkin]

But what are they genetically? What is causing the loss of pigment?

 

[windand rain]

Not sure to be honest as mum and dad are genetically not carrying any grey so the pony cannot be grey in my limited experience, There must be something that fades the colour out but not sure what it is looking at the genetics site it would appear that cream is an incomplete dilution and so it acts to fade out the coat but I may have misinterpreted that

 

[ester]

yes K's cream dun I would presume she is saying not dappled grey as more subtle is because it is greying from a pale colour anyway? and as grey and dun both dominant they are still dun, but greying? but then does that mean fergs and daemon pony are the same and daemon will look like fergs eventually?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I didn't think Highlands had the Cream gene... I've not heard of palomino, buckskin, cremello.. etc highlands for example? Am I wrong here?

Yes, Cream is an incomplete dominant eg on a chestnut base, one copy of cream gives a palomino and two copies gives a cremello. They don't gradually lose pigment with age like varnish roans or greys though.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

yes K's cream dun I would presume she is saying not dappled grey as more subtle is because it is greying from a pale colour anyway? and as grey and dun both dominant they are still dun, but greying? but then does that mean fergs and daemon pony are the same and daemon will look like fergs eventually?

Right - so cream dun is a bay + dun + grey? I remember that the traditional names for highland colours have confused me before. I would love to see some DNA results that show what genes the ponies actually carry with the traditional name stated alongside.

So what is W&R's pony that doesn't have a grey parent? W&R, would you be willing to post a photo.

 

[windand rain]

Not as such you get silver fox which looks a bit like a hafflinger colour and of course all the other duns including chocolate, yellow, grey dun with grey parent, bay black chestnut and a million and one other colours all ending in dun as dun is the ancient colour base for all of them, cream dun seems to be the only one that fades out the points I am not sure why My pony only has a grey great grandfather all the rest are solid duns and mum has had about a dozen foals to the same sire and they were mostly yellow duns. Dad is a cream dun too
This is the mum with her mum who was a light mouse dun

dad was a cream dun
Mum is 18 in this photo
Sorry but these photos are scanned ancient ones so not very clear they are after all 20 years old

 

[windand rain]

huge variety of colours on this site too
http://www.brownbreadstud.com/page6.htm
http://www.brownbreadstud.com/index.htm

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Dun isn't a base colour. Only Black and Chestnut are. Dun is a modifying gene and you can get non dun highlands.

I am wondering if the shade of bay/seal brown - if the pony has agouti - that the pony is affects the way that the dun dilutes it. EG a dark bay + agouti will look different to a bright bay + dun. So each shade gets a different name as the traditional names are based purely on the phenotype.

Dun can give a very 'frosted' mane as seen on this horse (not a highland).

I'm quite intrigued by this cream dun mystery now.

 

[alainax]

I'm quite intrigued by this cream dun mystery now.

Ears!!!!

 

[LessThanPerfect]

Ears!!!!

I know, aren't they fantastic?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yep, really clear dark tips to the ears. Some duns have a stripe at the ear tips too.

OK, I've been looking at loads of photos of Highlands and they have the silver gene! How fab is that! That could be the cause of the pale manes!

Silver dapple highland. Plus doing a google search for this image, it's on the Equine Tapestry confirming Silver dapple as the colour. Remember silver has no effect on chestnuts, so the horse in the photo is black based.

What would the traditional name for this be?