windand rain
Well-Known Member
Probably be a silver fox dun
what is "cream dun"?
- Thread starter LessThanPerfect
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
"What would the traditional name for this be?"
Gorgeous!
Gorgeous!
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Yet, that one would most probably test negative for dun.
I agree, silver dapples are splendid.
windand rain
Well-Known Member
Traditionally all highland colours seem to end in dun so like buckskin not truly accurate genetically My guess would be the cream dun going pale cream could have something to do with the silver as the mare above had cream streaks in her mane as did many of her yellow sons and daughters
Perhaps the fact that my old mare is the colour of the top of the milk all over with black skin and dark eyes also has something to do with the silver bit not sure I just know she cannot be grey as both of her parents were dun her father did go light eventually too but his father was dark cream dun all his life and never went grey his mother was black the mares mother and father were both mouse dun so no grey there either So unless there is some other factor she cannot be grey. Genetics is very interesting and in simple forms I can follow it but get a bit lost with all the modifier of colours so I am assuming mouse dun or grulla is black base with a dun modifier and yellow dun is a chestnut base with a dun modifier so a foal could have either a chestnut base or black base which would be dominant
The baby's father is cream dun too but she isnt fading out as quickly as either her parents so I would guess she is a black base with a dun modifier and nearer mouse dun than cream dun with the silver coming through now as she gets older
I am probably very wrong as I don't study it but it is very confusing with highland colours
Perhaps the fact that my old mare is the colour of the top of the milk all over with black skin and dark eyes also has something to do with the silver bit not sure I just know she cannot be grey as both of her parents were dun her father did go light eventually too but his father was dark cream dun all his life and never went grey his mother was black the mares mother and father were both mouse dun so no grey there either So unless there is some other factor she cannot be grey. Genetics is very interesting and in simple forms I can follow it but get a bit lost with all the modifier of colours so I am assuming mouse dun or grulla is black base with a dun modifier and yellow dun is a chestnut base with a dun modifier so a foal could have either a chestnut base or black base which would be dominant
The baby's father is cream dun too but she isnt fading out as quickly as either her parents so I would guess she is a black base with a dun modifier and nearer mouse dun than cream dun with the silver coming through now as she gets older
I am probably very wrong as I don't study it but it is very confusing with highland colours
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I don't think that silver fully explains the fading manes/tails as I have read that horses with silver can have their manes/tails darken with age. You are right though, a pony with both dun and silver would be paler due to having two dilution genes, plus a horse with no grey parent, can't be grey.
The traditional highland colour names predate the better understanding of colour genetics so the two don't match up, so can be confusing - well I'm still confused.
I didn't think that yellow dun was chestnut based?
The traditional highland colour names predate the better understanding of colour genetics so the two don't match up, so can be confusing - well I'm still confused.
I didn't think that yellow dun was chestnut based?
windand rain
Well-Known Member
That was a guess I dont know I do know you rarely get chestnut highlands but find it difficult to distinguish yellow and the gruella if they are both black maybe the yellow is further complicated by being on a bay historically
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Yes black dun is also known as grulla/grullo (Grulla = female, Grullo = male) is black + dun specifically. Other black based duns would include black + A + dun (bay dun) and black + At + dun (seal brown dun).
Equi
Well-Known Member
Not read all the comments but some, just re the dunalino thing, i asked about that and USA person said no.
What do others think?
If it helps, shes had a red dun foal, a coloured, and a chestnut.
What do others think?
If it helps, shes had a red dun foal, a coloured, and a chestnut.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
If you want to know for sure, then DNA testing is the way forwards (if thy can test for the genes you are interested in - not everything has a test yet). Looking at the horse to work out the colour, especially in these non straightforward cases is always an educated guess, not a 100% certainty.
http://animalgenetics.eu/Equine/Coat-Color-Testing/equine-coat-colour-index.html
http://animalgenetics.eu/Equine/Coat-Color-Testing/equine-coat-colour-index.html
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
Wow, lots happened since I posted. Yeah, Faracat, I don't understand the genetics really, but I always assumed that we had different traditional names for shades of the same genetic colour, like how dark bay and bright bay are genetically the same. I always assumed mouse dun and black dun were the same genetically for example (don't know if that is right though!).
About the cream dun, I agree the ones I've seen haven't had grey parents, and whilst they lighten SLIGHTLY with age the colour is much more consistent, and without the white on the face as foals that normally means they will grey out. The pale creamy dapples are also often present, but don't fade out like a dapple grey's would (or start nearly as dark). I don't know what the genetics is, I don't even know if they are true dun rather than some kind of pale buckskin or something but I've known a few and they are very pretty.
W&r spot on that there are very few chestnut Highlands, and they aren't well liked so even fewer are bred from. The mouse dun and black dun tend to be preferred, IME showing up here in NE Scotland.
About the cream dun, I agree the ones I've seen haven't had grey parents, and whilst they lighten SLIGHTLY with age the colour is much more consistent, and without the white on the face as foals that normally means they will grey out. The pale creamy dapples are also often present, but don't fade out like a dapple grey's would (or start nearly as dark). I don't know what the genetics is, I don't even know if they are true dun rather than some kind of pale buckskin or something but I've known a few and they are very pretty.
W&r spot on that there are very few chestnut Highlands, and they aren't well liked so even fewer are bred from. The mouse dun and black dun tend to be preferred, IME showing up here in NE Scotland.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Considering how silvers can often be mistaken for flaxen chestnuts, it would be a great shame if people didn't breed from them because they'd misidentified the colour. Silver does cause dapples. I'd love to see the DNA results for these 'cream dun' highlands.
One of the best things IMO has been the opening up of the colours allowed in PRE's. It's been fabulous seeing how many colours have been hidden under grey for so many years. Plus they often DNA test them for colour so you know exactly what the horse has.
One of the best things IMO has been the opening up of the colours allowed in PRE's. It's been fabulous seeing how many colours have been hidden under grey for so many years. Plus they often DNA test them for colour so you know exactly what the horse has.
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
It's just not a preferred colour, rather than outright not allowed, and you do see a few red duns etc - it's the classic chestnuts that you don't see many of, especially in the show ring. Far worse is any amount of white on a horse - no white markings are allowed to be registered.
So could the cream dun in theory be a silver? What base coat would give you the cream though? It's intriguing.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I was just wondering if Silver plus Dun would give a very light creamy 'Dun' but with the pale mane and tail, as you then have two diluting genes on the same horse with the silver causing the light mane and tail? It's a theory... no idea if it's correct or not.
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
I struggle to understand "dun" though this thread has helped. I know two, maybe three "duns" but could anyone help me understand better how it happens?
The first is what I think of a typical "dun". Pony has black lower legs, ear tips and muzzle. There is a dark brown mane and tail with a few beige hairs on the top layer and a distinct dark brown dorsal stripe. The rest of the pony is mustard colour. Breeding unknown. Is it bay + dun gene?
The second looks bay, except that the points are dark brown rather than black and there is a feint dorsal stripe. There are some beige hairs in the mane and the summer coat is paler with a beige-ness towards the belly and a metallic sheen. Part Arab. Is it buckskin, from a bay base? Is buckskin a different gene to dun?
The third is pure Exmoor and is biscuit colour with brown points and mealy muzzle but no dorsal stripe. Is this one actually dun? If it had black points it would be bay.
The first is what I think of a typical "dun". Pony has black lower legs, ear tips and muzzle. There is a dark brown mane and tail with a few beige hairs on the top layer and a distinct dark brown dorsal stripe. The rest of the pony is mustard colour. Breeding unknown. Is it bay + dun gene?
The second looks bay, except that the points are dark brown rather than black and there is a feint dorsal stripe. There are some beige hairs in the mane and the summer coat is paler with a beige-ness towards the belly and a metallic sheen. Part Arab. Is it buckskin, from a bay base? Is buckskin a different gene to dun?
The third is pure Exmoor and is biscuit colour with brown points and mealy muzzle but no dorsal stripe. Is this one actually dun? If it had black points it would be bay.
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Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Exmoors don't have the Dun gene - they are black + agouti + pangare.
http://whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html
This link has good examples of the various versions of Cream and Dun.
This one (posted earlier, but you might have missed it) shows how to identify the difference between Dun factor markings and countershading. For example, my grey was born chestnut, but she had a dorsal stripe which was caused by countershading. She is definitely not a Dun.
http://www.grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.htm
S&S, can you post photos of the first two horses? Generally in the UK, when people think of 'dun' they imagine a buckskin (Connemaras and Welshies fit in here), which of course is nothing to do with the dun gene as it's caused by Cream.
Buckskin
Sooty buckskin.
http://whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html
This link has good examples of the various versions of Cream and Dun.
This one (posted earlier, but you might have missed it) shows how to identify the difference between Dun factor markings and countershading. For example, my grey was born chestnut, but she had a dorsal stripe which was caused by countershading. She is definitely not a Dun.
http://www.grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.htm
S&S, can you post photos of the first two horses? Generally in the UK, when people think of 'dun' they imagine a buckskin (Connemaras and Welshies fit in here), which of course is nothing to do with the dun gene as it's caused by Cream.
Buckskin
Sooty buckskin.
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
Thanks faracat. I haven't looked on the links because I've read those sites before and still don't understand! I understand where a palomino and a cremello comes from, but for the rest of it I'm lost with the dun and cream genes. It's all a mystery to me.
I can't put pics on here because I haven't got a computer. Your pics the top one looks like the first horse I described and the second horse resembles the bottom picture more closely though it doesn't have any dapples. At least I know what's going on with the Exmoor now. I've been going round calling them "dun" for years! :biggrin3:
ETA my first horse with the distinct dorsal stripe is 34 and still looks "dun" so nothing to do with grey shading it out (if I've understood that correctly).
I can't put pics on here because I haven't got a computer. Your pics the top one looks like the first horse I described and the second horse resembles the bottom picture more closely though it doesn't have any dapples. At least I know what's going on with the Exmoor now. I've been going round calling them "dun" for years! :biggrin3:
ETA my first horse with the distinct dorsal stripe is 34 and still looks "dun" so nothing to do with grey shading it out (if I've understood that correctly).
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khalswitz
Well-Known Member
I was just wondering if Silver plus Dun would give a very light creamy 'Dun' but with the pale mane and tail, as you then have two diluting genes on the same horse with the silver causing the light mane and tail? It's a theory... no idea if it's correct or not.
Very interesting. It's a *reasonably* commonly colouring in Highlands (I've met more cream duns than chestnuts!) so would be lovely to know what causes it.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Another thought - could they have Pangare under the Dun? That causes some pretty pale Haflingers. I think that full DNA colour panels are needed!
khalswitz
Well-Known Member
Another thought - could they have Pangare under the Dun? That causes some pretty pale Haflingers. I think that full DNA colour panels are needed!
Ooooh. Could maybe help explain the creaminess. Does that also produce the dapples??
We need some Highland ponies to experiment on now