What is fair??

E

eventer28

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 November 2002
Messages
359
Location
Royton
Visit site
I keep my 3 horses on DIY livery at a farm. The farmer has some brood mares and show ponies and my horses are the only liveries. A few weeks ago one of my horses developed an abscess which was diagnosed as a bruised heel by the vets. My horse was very sore and ended up getting cast in his stable. In his attempt to get himself up his abscess burst (probs by kicking the wall) and he knocked the breeze block wall down in his stable. He scraped a huge section on hair and skin off his hock and stifle area.. All superficial. I could tell that the farmer was very annoyed and i promised to pay for the wall to be re-built. Half of the wall was remaining and 30% of the fallen blocks had to be replaced. The wall is not tied into any other walls so isn't a very strong structure. The farmer showed me the bill today which is £326.00. I was so shocked! His wife told me that I didn't have to pay but the farmer told me to pay him however much I thought.. How much should i pay? I really like this farming family and i want to be fair. Help???
 
Hi

I'm presuming the farmer didn't re build the wall himself? £326 sounds like a builder and materials for the job? If the farmer did it himself then I am not sure this cost can be justified, but if he got a third party in then the cost seems about right. I know it seems like a lot, but actually its prob about right for the builder to turn up with his cement mixer and do a repair.

You sound like you have a nice place there for you and your horse - your own exclusive livery yard with nice people! Its surprising how many people have to put up with unhappy livery yards - big ones with no turnout or grass, rules and regulations - oh yeah the bitchiness! So I think what you have is worth protecting rather than falling out over £300 and having to move to a massive livery yard where things aren't so nice.

I would suggest you write a cheque out (quickly) for this amount and give it to the farmers wife. It shows goodwill from you (afterall it was your horses fault) and you never know, they might not cash it if they think you have done the right thing.........
 
Personally, I would accept that my horse caused the damage and I would want to pay or at least contribute for the repair. (this is assuming the wall was fairly sound in the first place).

I would give them as much as you can comfortably afford at the moment, and offer to pay up in installments. They will hopefully see that as you taking responsibility and might even let you off some of it.
 
Are you paying a commercial rate for your horses - for example we charge £60 per week for DIY with food.

Due to this we would expect to replace a wall, but not something like a bent gate that a horse charged.

However if you are only paying a nominal amount I suggest you help out with the bill, as if they get fed up with the hassle then they may well decide its easier not to have a livery!
 
I pay £20 per horse and then buy hay and straw from the farmer, we have zero facilities, grazing is great in the summer but rubbish in winter.. The wall was very old, not tied into another wall so can never be very strong and I wont put my horse back into that stable incase it falls again. How does 150.00 sound? fair?
 
I would pay at least £200 of it. If it was really in poor condition then you needed to have pointed it out before to be able to disclaim all responsibility for demolishing it. But at the same time if the condition was poor then they should cover part as they are improving their own asset. I think £200 looks a lot better than something beginning with '1'.
At the price they are charging you for livery you arent paying enough for any facilities much so I dont think thats a reason for not paying for this, also it would need an awful lot of your £20s to enable him to cover the cost of the wall.
 
Tempi said:
Ditto this, the wall cant have been that strong if your horse managed to knock it down in the first place.
Click to expand...

I've had 10 horses over six years in my stables and never had any damage done to the walls until a new horse arrived on livery. He knocked huge cracks in 3 walls in 8 days. The whole walls rocked and they weren't able to be used in that state. One wall was rebuilt, by a builder the livery knew on the day it happened which we were incredibly grateful for, and he did the same to the neighbouring stable whilst that cured and again to the newly built wall when he was moved back to his own stable.

No other horse has ever done anything like this and other walls in the stable had kicks mark on from this horse. Surely you can't expect any structure to withstand constant abuse from a huge hunter? The front stable walls are tied into the side wall and it has a small "return" on it to give it strength...without this I am sure the walls would've fallen when the horse did his party piece on them.

For the record the livery sadly had to be given notice, but we have the two walls to repair at our cost. I couldn't possibly afford to keep a horse on the yard that was clearly going to repeatedly do that, not when livery was only £15 per week, per horse.

It's a shame. She was a fab livery. :(
 
Last edited:
As you have such a nice place and are not charged too much, I would pay at least half, if not all. It is well worth not upsetting the farmer by the sounds of it. As you can tell from stories on here, good places are hard to find.:D
 
I would offer to pay half just to keep the peace however you pay livery to stable your horse in a safe environment and it's their responsibility to provide that service.
Any repairs or maintenance to either your field or stable should be paid for by the farmer...that's why you pay livery. However you have a responsibility to treat your stable and field with respect and abide to the yard rules. This was an accident and should be covered by insurance.
If you rented your house out and your bath fell though the ceiling it would be you the landlord that has to pay not the people renting?!!?...That's why any business should have insurance.
Arguably the wall wasn't erected correctly or wasn't suitable to house a horse which would means it wasn't your fault and you could claim against the farmer...depends on how petty you want to be?!!?
 
Going back to my reply on this topic...

Sedgemoor Chaos are you really suggesting that YO's should always cover the cost of any damage, however it happens?

A bath suddenly falling through a ceiling without warning is alot different to damage that has been caused by destruction, be it accidental or deliberate.

My son rents a flat. If he smashed a window in that flat, for example, he would be liable for the repair. It would be his fault and not something a landlord should be expected to repair. Central heating breaking etc is the landlord's responsibility though.

We are footing the bill for our ex-livery horse's damage as we fully understand that the livery couldn't afford to, especially as they were then asked to move. We didn't charge a deposit on the stables either, so no money towards the damage in that sense. We're ok with that but obviously couldn't afford to risk any further damage as £15 per week simply cannot cover that level of repairs.

There has to be a cut off point. We've never charged for the odd broken rail, stable door etc. Wouldn't dream of it as we do understand that things get broken, but bulldozing a stable that has stood with numerous horses, some equally as large, in it for years does indicate the forces used were extreme.
 
I think it depends on the suitability of the stable as a stable in the first place. If the wall was suitable as a stable wall, i.e. could withstand normal wear and tear by a horse and was brought down due to extra-ordinary circumstances, then I think the horse owner should pay. If the wall was not up to standard for a stable, then the YO should pay.

I kept my horse at a livery yard where they had divided a big barn with breeze block partitions, but the walls were not tied into anything (either footings, or to the back wall). A different horse would push down its wall every week until about 5-6 walls had fallen down the the YO realised she had to do something to sort out the problem (it was quite dangerous!). None of us liveries paid as it was clear the walls were not suitable for purpose in the first place.
 
Maybe a chat with him, asking if you can pay some off and maybe factor the rest into your livery? Or would he come round to the idea of a set fee you could just pay off straight away like £200?
 
Patches...

To be stabled at our yard your horses have to be insured, it's a yard rule. In return the yard we are on has full insurance. My insurance covers accidents and i asume the yard owners insurance does as well.
I asume that part of my livery fee eventually pays for the yard owners insurance so if this was the yard i was on (and after speaking to my yard owner today about this) then his insurance would cover the cost of the rebuild and would ask the livery to pay the excess.
In a simular case that happened on his yard where someone unloaded a horse which escaped, tried jumping a 4ft wall but didn't make it and landed on top of it causing it to fall down then the yard owner only asked the livery to pay his excess which was £75.
I pay £65 a week livery where i am and i expect for my money a safe and secure place to keep my horse which includes simple things like fences being fixed when a horse kicks a rail off right up to big things like making sure that a stable wall will withstand a horse...otherwise that's just dangerous.
Many yards in my area ask for a months rent as a deposit and stables are inspected before the livery leaves. Any damage is taken out of the deposit.
As i said before...To keep the peace maybe half shoud be paid, a sign of good will.
 
I'm just a bit confused as to what you class as should "withstand a horse". Would you say the wall that fell when a horse landed on it wasn't safe then, as it didn't withstand the horse's accident?

We are insured and the livery had insurance for her horses too. It would not have occurred to us to claim for any wear and tear caused by this sort of accident. Heck, if we did, we'd end up struggling to indemnify ourselves due to the nature of having horses and running a large dairy farm. Animals can and do break things that have been stood for many decades.

My stable walls have withstood horses fine for years. I could take a sledgehammer to them and eventually knock them down if the mood took me I'm sure. Repeated kicks from a horse will clearly have the same effect over time on any such structure.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that no stable is 100% "horse proof" if the horse is intent on destruction. Think of wood stables. I've seen a fair few with holes in the timber walls. I've heard of other horses kicking down walls too. To say the YO is at fault just because the wall gave way, per se, isn't really fair when you factor in the weight of these animals and the forces with which they can kick.

That aside, it does sounds like the walls in the OP's case were built rather dubiously.
 
"I'm just a bit confused as to what you class as should "withstand a horse". Would you say the wall that fell when a horse landed on it wasn't safe then, as it didn't withstand the horse's accident?"

The wall in question was a garden wall as the horse had escaped. This wasn't a stable wall.

A stable wall should withstand a horse rolling against it or kicking it. We have Internal wooden stables that house large hunters that have been up for over 15 years and haven't fallen down and have survived horses getting cast against them and kicking at feed times etc...if there is a horse that is a known kicker the YO has put rubber matting against the wall to absorb the blows which is a sign he maintains his yard...so it's a bit of a worry that a brick wall collapses.

I understand that claiming on small amounts would be excessive but your talking over £300 which isn't pocket money. Which means there should either be an insurance claim or paying half each.
This would show good will on both sides. The Farmer for building a rubbish wall and the livery for having a horse that cause large damage.
In "Eventer38's" first post it does say the wall wasn't built correctly therefore unsuitable to house a horse safely.
 
In the OP's case, yes it is a worry that the wall physically collapsed.

My walls didn't collapse, they are just left with huge cracks in the cement work. If all of my stable walls were breaking continually, whatever horses were stabled in them, then I would say "ooops we have a problem here".

However, the only damage caused to the walls came from a single horse. Whatever your opinion, I really think it's unreasonable to expect a wall to not show any signs of damage if it's repeatedly subjected to abuse overnight. My front stable walls have all survived the "feed time" kicking, itching bum and head scratching and even a horse of mine getting cast and kicking at them. They are wall tied, the blocks are filled with cement for added strength too.

I think you do miss the point slightly. A double barrel from a horse is much more force than I could yield with a sledgehammer....yet I'm pretty sure any one of us could have a wall showing damage if we hit it often enough with one.

Anyway, as I stated, I have personally absorbed the cost of having my stables rebuilt. I have not given a bill to the livery...but...I don't think it was unreasonable to have then had to serve notice. Something in the design of our stables, whilst being absolutely fine for every other horse that was stabled in them, was clearly a "weakness" for this particular horse's antics.

As I said in my OP. It's such a shame as the livery was a cracking girl and I'm now no longer allowed liveries as the powers that be (in-laws who we live on the farm with) have decided it's pointless having liveries if they cost us more than they earn.
 
This is a difficult situation to suggest liability.
1) if the wall fell due to age/wear and tear then it would be the landlords liability
2) if the wall fell through accidental damage by the tenant then its the tenants liability

In the case of the OP i think that its a bit of both. Therefore if it were me i would offer to pay half and explain why. You could also check with your insurance company if it would be covered?
 
Patches, I think your taking these posts personally and deviating from the original message that Eventer38 made.

I haven't said your walls are not substantial or any comment about your yard. I also haven't questioned the difference of hitting a wall with a sledge hammer or a horse kicking it.

The point of the original message posted was that her horse got cast and due to the wall not being built properly collapsed. Arguably if the wall had been tied in it may have withstood the horse getting cast.
As it didn't, i don't think it's fair for the livery to pay for the full damage as the wall in question wasn't suitable to house a horse.
 
I certainly agree that the OP should offer to pay something, as I know I would in her shoes....especially as she clearly is on a very good yard and likes being there. A goodwill gesture on her part is going to keep the arrangement sweet. :grin:

I know my posts have deviated, and I'm sorry to the OP for hijacking.

I was just a little stunned at a couple of replies stating they wouldn't expect to pay anything, assuming a low weekly livery amount (in my case) should cover every amount of wear/tear/damage caused whilst their horse is on the yard. It simply can't be fair, imo, for liveries (and I don't mean you or the OP) to expect the YO to continually absorb all costs. Once liveries start costing more than they earn, it's only natural to assume a YO will be forced to ask them to leave to save their pockets. The added comments (from whoever) about suing the YO for compensation stunned me a bit too....well only if the poster would have expected to maintain their agreement with the YO.

My replies to you were about trying to ascertain what constitutes a structure being suitable to hold horses and what is classed as extreme behaviour causing damage that a wall or wooden stable is unlikely to survive regardless of it's build quality.
 
Reply to OP

You seem to be onto a good thing, don't pay a huge amount and like it there. On the other hand, facilities including the suitability of the building aren't great.

In your position, if I wanted to stay and to build good will I would pay some of this - suggest £150-£200. I've paid towards damage mine have done in the past when on DIY. Thats just my thoughts though.
 
Last edited:
In reply to the OP. The bill sounds reasonable to me for materials,builder and VAT. Have you checked your insurance policy? maybe you can claim from them for this bill.
Unfortunately this is yet another incident highlighting the need for proper written livery agreements,stating exactly what is included in the livery fee charged. I'm assuming this farm runs a "cash inhand" livery policy,ie farmer making a bit of cash from renting out to a horse owner. If the owner/yard owner had a proper agreement with fees paid by direct debit who pays for what should have been made clear in the first place.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top