What is the Germans secret?

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Spangie

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I have loved watching eventing today, thought team GB were super. However, have to admit the Germans (jung and sandra a) were flawless in their sj. What is their secret?? There was never even a moment where it looked like they might have poles!!
 
I've always been told by good teachers over here that the Germans simply teach riding properly. Riding tuition - and the costs associated with it - is completely different in Germany. They build the foundations really well, i.e. technique. I know this because I grew up there. Many people who start riding at a young age in Germany don't start with riding per se, but vaulting (without a riding hat!). This improves balance before you are even allowed to sit on a saddle, because if you can stand on a horse in canter, I'd expect you to be able to sit on one as well, lol.

And then, when you are in a saddle, you get lunged around some more to really get that seat right!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I go to an average riding school here, I see kids being put on ponies and being walked/trotted around on lead rein, on a saddled pony with body protectors, etc. In a way, the focus here in the UK is on fun and safety - though the latter doesn't necessarily mean that it is actually a 'safe' thing to do in the long-run... great to have a riding hat and body protector, but it's even better to just NOT fall off at all! I often see wobbly kids in group lessons, kicking ponies into the sides, knowing nothing of subtle aids, and I want to just rip them off the poor pony!!!

In Germany, they also have a "riding club" system which I personally think the UK should have, too. Most riding schools there are actually riding clubs. They compete with one another, etc. I know there's the pony club over here, but that's pretty much reserved for those with their own ponies. In Germany, when you want to learn riding, you join a club, have regular high quality lessons (payments are made via direct debit on a monthly basis), compete with your club, and guess what... it's not that expensive. Monthly payments (4-5 lessons) costs the same as 2 lessons over here, which is great as more people can enjoy the sport without having their own horse.

With jumping, they also put an emphasis on style jumping when you're young, i.e. jumping the correct way rather than just jumping a clear round. So by the time you are in your 20s, that is really ingrained in your brain...

As a side note: I looked into a week-long riding camp for kids in Germany, and many actually say the kids all learn riding bareback. Parents here would get a heart attack! The week (incl. accommodation, food, riding, etc.) costs about £235. That's as much as my colleagues spend on a child minder (w/o accommodation/food/riding) per week!
 
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....they give you a test during childhood and if you crack under pressure they take your German passport away and give you one from a different country?:D

- unbelievably cool riding!!
 
I think ian stark was right in saying that team GB are the best cross country riders in the world and over a course like badminton and burghley the british riders are very hard to beat but at a track like this where the cross country is less technical it doesnt give the british riders to get an advantage. But i do believe our dressage as a whole and showjumping is improving maybe by the next olympics we will be untouchable.
 
Bear in mind the Germans were only 4.5 pts ahead! Having said that, there is a cultural value around precision and exactitude that Brits lack; Brits better at improvisation and "grace under pressure" but probably this exactitude pays off in Olympics, etc.
Germans also have a national breeding programme and are probably a bit less sentimental and a bit more ruthless in choosing and discarding horses.
But, hey, look at the Irish result - heart and guts over money and precision- a great result. Ireland had great horses, just need to knit together a national programme and they can beat the others!
 
My YO said they focus loads on the position etc and they spend ages on the lunge before they even start anything more.

Have also noticed how quite a few of their horses seem to be in very simple tack as well.
 
I was lead to believe that in many european countries, Germany being one, that before they allow you to go jumping you have to achieve a certain standard with flatwork. So your flatwork has to be at a good standard before you move on to anything else. This ensures that they have a good foundation to build the rest of their riding on. We don't do this & the results can be seen from the poor standard of many riders you see at affiliated showjumping venues. I believe that until we go down this route with training we will always struggle to beat the likes of Germany.
 
I think it is easy to put ourselves down. Its only relatively recently the Germans have made an impact in eventing- wasn't this one of the reasons Chris bartle was appointed team trainer- to improve their performance?? I think Chris is British- if the Germans were the best would they not have appointed a German trainer??

The Olympics is not a test of the best- it is not the pinnacle of our sport- badminton is a truer test...

Let's not undersell ourselves. Michel Jung is without doubt a class rider but I think we have a few British riders who we can count alongside him! Poppa funnel is the only roger to date winning the role x challenge and wft may be the second - both British!
 
I am half German and grew up there. There attiude is very different to the British. Riding isn't meant to be fun, it is a sport where you must strive to excel and perfect. I learnt to ride without stirrups before being allowed to have them. All the horses were quality schoolmasters. Hacking is unheard of, it just wasn't done. The horses have a strict routine (like most Germans!). Competitions are serious business, especially if you were representing your Riding School, and you certainly wouldn't be competing unless they thought that you were capable of winning. Its the German attitude to everything in life!

They have rigourous grading of breeding stock, breeding the best to the best. Horses have to proove themselves before breeding.
 
me&Harvey said:
My YO said they focus loads on the position etc and they spend ages on the lunge before they even start anything more.
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Years ago I went used to ride at this place in Spain while on holiday, they did hacking and lessons.

There was a german guy there with his daughter, they lived out there, he came out on a hack or two with us, she got to have lessons on the lunge.

She was probably about 10, had been riding a few years and was flying round at canter doing full scissors but had never ridden off the lunge.

The owner of the yard used the same way of teaching, first on the lunge without stirrups. Then with stirrups and only when your position was established were you allowed to hold the reins.
 
Interesting comments on learning to ride in Germany etc. I worked at a yard in Italy, riding school and we evented to novice level. Several years later I went back for a visit. A top German trainer was there. The daughter was being trained by her, and was on the italian junior team. The lady also managed the yard and riding school. Nothing was ever turned out and nobody ever hacked, as it was at the top of a mountain and the roads/fields were terraced/steep(always had when we were there). kids were put on the lunge with no stirrups or reins until they could trot and canter with wonderful seats. Some of the riders that I had taught years before as diddies were riding wonderfully. Round and round the school with serious expressions. They looked great, but weren't smiling and having fun. They were very driven though. The daughter went onto ride for Italy at the WEG where Zara was crowned champion.

I think its our makeup/conditioning to be good sports, whereas the Germans just go for what they want, more focused - think towels round the pool!

Just ponderings - probably totally racist really! I have lots of German friends by the way!!:o
 
Perissa said:
I am half German and grew up there. There attiude is very different to the British. Riding isn't meant to be fun, it is a sport where you must strive to excel and perfect. I learnt to ride without stirrups before being allowed to have them. All the horses were quality schoolmasters. Hacking is unheard of, it just wasn't done. The horses have a strict routine (like most Germans!). Competitions are serious business, especially if you were representing your Riding School, and you certainly wouldn't be competing unless they thought that you were capable of winning. Its the German attitude to everything in life!

They have rigourous grading of breeding stock, breeding the best to the best. Horses have to proove themselves before breeding.
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Agree with this!!! Had a riding lesson with novice hubby with my old German riding teacher in Germany years ago. He was so scared of her, I sometimes wonder whether she features in his nightmares even now! Can't remember having been scared of her, but I remember as a kid going to the lessons not thinking 'this is fun' but 'this is business'. Somehow, my kiddy/teenage brain coped well with that (I guess I'm more 'German' than I look/like to admit). Not sure how I'd cope with that now.
 
It sounds as if the German children learning to ride are not allowed saddles.

I was not allowed a saddle for two years.

One of the finest hunting men and former cavalry officer, I have known who hunted well into his 80's, told me he and his brothers were not allowed saddles for at least two years.

It get's the bums automatically down in the saddle when they are allowed.

So all you mums and dads, it's off to the tack room in the dead of night and remove those saddles. You will be amazed at the difference it makes.

Oh and the initial outcry and howls of protest, but don't give in and remain resolute.

Remind them that were they to join any of the cavalry regiments a similar induction arrangement exists.
 
I have been wondering the same thing but haven't come to any real conclusions.

Only thing that stands out is that they generally seem to be very disciplined and focused,almost regimental in their approach.
Even when they did well some of them only allowed themselves a small smile and nod of the head to their team mates,which I thought was taking reserved to the extreme.
Maybe it's more about how they are as people,and that is what makes them so formiddable in sport??

Personally I will take guts and heart like us and some others had,and a big ***** eating grin when leaving the arena:D
 
They keep bribing the IOC to hold the Olympics somewhere you can't build a big galloping XC course.

*Ahem* It's worth noting that they've traditionally been very strong in dressage and SJ, maybe young riders in the UK need a wider variety of high-level experience/coaching?

I don't think we should try and be like the Germans personality wise, that just isn't who we are. And i'm sure our top riders are just as professional although maybe that professionalism needs to filter down more to young riders
 
But don't forget, UK won silver!!! Celebrate how brilliantly well our guys did. They were immense. Just a few different bits of luck and they could have struck gold.
It's Germany's chance to shine right now. Not so long ago it was Australia. Before that France. No one has the secret formula, not even schooling little kids on a lunge til they want to die. As a wonderful man said to me on Saturday, it's 30% horse, 30% rider, 30 % luck. The rest is up to the Gods.
 
I think the major difference is the level at which they showjump outside of eventing! They also ride a high level of pure dressage. Chris Bartle appears to have slotted in the final price of the puzzle...xc!
 
I lived in Germany for several years - it's where I really got into correct riding.
The first year was pretty much spent on the lunge (3 times per week, with 2 lessons ridden in the week), I had to ride with no reins and no stirrups to develop balance in all the paces, and in transitions etc. I was taught to do everything through my seat.

The trainers are highly educated, Pferdewirtschaftsmeisters - it's kind of like getting a PhD in horses / riding, it takes years of training / competing / education / lots of exams / apprenticeship for them to achieve this level, and they will have competed at Grand Prix level with a lot of success.

Germans trainers have been there and done it, are highly trained and educated, and the education is built on very strong and consistent foundations of the "art of riding" and "the scales of training".
Also, these trainers have had to compete at a high level in both dressage and show jumping in order to fulfil the requirements of their training.

As a novice / amateur / child, in order to compete in Germany you have to do a test - get a Reitabzeichen - you are tested in dressage and showjumping (90cm) in front of judges, who then award you with your Reitabzeichen if you are successful - you are then allowed to go out to dressage competitions or show jumping comps, whichever one you're into. The point is, that you have to be good at EVERYTHING, riders (and trainers) have to be proficient across the board. Plus, the seat, balance, and independent use of the aides, and the scales of training are of utmost importance.

Also, like Tasel said, they learn vaulting (Voltigieren) from a young age. I remember seeing a young rider in the arena with me in Germany, she was riding her horse backwards - i.e. she was sitting backwards in the saddle. She asked if I wanted to have a go....laughing, I politely declined! I was pretty impressed at her skills though!
 
tasel said:
I've always been told by good teachers over here that the Germans simply teach riding properly. Riding tuition - and the costs associated with it - is completely different in Germany. They build the foundations really well, i.e. technique. I know this because I grew up there. Many people who start riding at a young age in Germany don't start with riding per se, but vaulting (without a riding hat!). This improves balance before you are even allowed to sit on a saddle, because if you can stand on a horse in canter, I'd expect you to be able to sit on one as well, lol.

And then, when you are in a saddle, you get lunged around some more to really get that seat right!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I go to an average riding school here, I see kids being put on ponies and being walked/trotted around on lead rein, on a saddled pony with body protectors, etc. In a way, the focus here in the UK is on fun and safety - though the latter doesn't necessarily mean that it is actually a 'safe' thing to do in the long-run... great to have a riding hat and body protector, but it's even better to just NOT fall off at all! I often see wobbly kids in group lessons, kicking ponies into the sides, knowing nothing of subtle aids, and I want to just rip them off the poor pony!!!

In Germany, they also have a "riding club" system which I personally think the UK should have, too. Most riding schools there are actually riding clubs. They compete with one another, etc. I know there's the pony club over here, but that's pretty much reserved for those with their own ponies. In Germany, when you want to learn riding, you join a club, have regular high quality lessons (payments are made via direct debit on a monthly basis), compete with your club, and guess what... it's not that expensive. Monthly payments (4-5 lessons) costs the same as 2 lessons over here, which is great as more people can enjoy the sport without having their own horse.

With jumping, they also put an emphasis on style jumping when you're young, i.e. jumping the correct way rather than just jumping a clear round. So by the time you are in your 20s, that is really ingrained in your brain...

As a side note: I looked into a week-long riding camp for kids in Germany, and many actually say the kids all learn riding bareback. Parents here would get a heart attack! The week (incl. accommodation, food, riding, etc.) costs about £235. That's as much as my colleagues spend on a child minder (w/o accommodation/food/riding) per week!
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i can second the above as i grew up in Germany and first learnt to ride out there... it is so different compared to going to a riding school here in the uk.... I learnt on the lunge and did quite abit of vaulting before i was even in a normal saddle. I think the startting out training is the key to why they have so many talented riders out there.
 
The Eventing is dumbed down for the Olympics - 'so that other nations can compete'! Which is rubbish! Stressage and SJ aren't dumbed down so why is Eventing?

The roads and tracks were taken away, the XC is at best 2* level, so now you don't necessarily need a TB to compete, the dressage becomes much more influential and other breeds of horses can now get a look in and the breeding programmes in Germany can breath a sign of relief!

When the Germans start winning regularly at 4* level, then they might be able to call themselves a good Eventing nation, until that time GB, OZ and NZ will remain the great Eventing nations.
 
Dab said:
The Eventing is dumbed down for the Olympics - 'so that other nations can compete'! Which is rubbish! Stressage and SJ aren't dumbed down so why is Eventing?

The roads and tracks were taken away, the XC is at best 2* level, so now you don't necessarily need a TB to compete, the dressage becomes much more influential and other breeds of horses can now get a look in and the breeding programmes in Germany can breath a sign of relief!

When the Germans start winning regularly at 4* level, then they might be able to call themselves a good Eventing nation, until that time GB, OZ and NZ will remain the great Eventing nations.
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Ummmmmm I have to just say that although I am no expert whatsoever the XC course was defo not 2**, we went on Monday and the sheer intensity of it all upped the difficulty for a start. There were very few gallopy strectches to regroup. The XC course claimed some big scalps and established 4* combinations and so I think it was pitched completely right. Yes I think things may have been different if the XC was Badminton-esque but this is the olympics and I think it was influential (just ask the Ozzies).

I am unbelievably proud to be British and think that our eventing team were ACE but you just cannot knock the Germans....IMO we didnt LOSE the gold, they Germans WON it! The dressage has become more and more influential at all levels and I believe that Michael Jung has won the odd competition here and there ;). It is becoming increasingly tight at the top of international eventing, and I think that the Germans are there with GB, NZ and Ozzies.......and I will be very interested to see the Japanese team in Rio too :-)
 
avthechav said:
...I am unbelievably proud to be British and think that our eventing team were ACE but you just cannot knock the Germans....IMO we didnt LOSE the gold, they Germans WON it! The dressage has become more and more influential at all levels and I believe that Michael Jung has won the odd competition here and there ;). It is becoming increasingly tight at the top of international eventing, and I think that the Germans are there with GB, NZ and Ozzies.......and I will be very interested to see the Japanese team in Rio too :-)
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The dreassge has become more and more influential because the stamina element has been taken away i.e. the roads and tracks.

Yes Michael has won many competitions at 2* and 3* level, and Lumeulen (sp) 4* this year. He is a great rider and very talented, but i'm sorry the Germans are not up to the standard of the other 3 nations in terms of 4* eventing wins and could not be competative as a team at that level at the moment.
 
Dab said:
When the Germans start winning regularly at 4* level, then they might be able to call themselves a good Eventing nation, until that time GB, OZ and NZ will remain the great Eventing nations.
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What an utter nonsense! If this would be true, why haven't then these other nations not won over the Germans??? It was the same course for all to go. I have seen it all from the beginning. You have some super riders with Zara Philipps, Fox-Pitt and Mary but we have them too. We are very disciplined, learning to ride is stressful and hard work until our seat is perfect. Our horses are good and well trained and there is always also a good part of luck. The Swedish lady could have gotten the gold medal yet they (horse and rider) made a mistake on the last jump so they missed it.

Why being so negative about Germans just because we won? That is not an ethical sportive thinking.

And btw look at who won the Gold Medal in 2008 in Hongkong!!!
 
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flyingcolors said:
What an utter nonsense! If this would be true, why haven't then these other nations not won over the Germans??? It was the same course for all to go. I have seen it all from the beginning. You have some super riders with Zara Philipps, Fox-Pitt and Mary but we have them too. We are very disciplined, learning to ride is stressful and hard work until our seat is perfect. Our horses are good and well trained and there is always also a good part of luck. The Swedish lady could have gotten the gold medal yet they (horse and rider) made a mistake on the last jump so they missed it.

Why being so negative about Germans just because we won? That is not an ethical sportive thinking.

And btw look at who won the Gold Medal in 2008 in Hongkong!!!
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I'm not saying that Germany dont deserve to win at 'this olympic level', they have a pool of great and talented riders at this level, but they would struggle to win if it was a true 4* event.

Why is eventing dumbed down for the olympics, when dressage and sj is not.
 
Dab said:
Yes Michael has won many competitions at 2* and 3* level, and Lumeulen (sp) 4* this year. He is a great rider and very talented, but i'm sorry the Germans are not up to the standard of the other 3 nations in terms of 4* eventing wins and could not be competative as a team at that level at the moment.
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So just looking at the FEI rankings online...top 25 riders include the following:

GBR 4
NZL 2
USA 3
GER 4
AUS 8
FRA 1
BEL 1
ITA 2

...Are these rankings generated on a points value so across */ **/***/****?
If so although not a true measure of **** success it certainly is a measure of some value. This would actually show that the ozzies are heads and shoulders above the rest of us.

If we then look at the FEI classics top 25 rankings for this year..

GBR 5
NZL 2
GER 2
AUS 11
USA 4
FRA 1

...again I guess with badders cancelled this is skewed but even so it shows the ozzies way above the rest of us!...and in fact Germany the same at New Zealand.

Oh I love being on summer hols...loads of time for random research :-)
 
I always ask myself why they dumb the eventing phase down slighltly as really the olyimpics should be a competiotn to show the worlds best sports people at that time... but unfortunatley for some countries they just are not quite top level as some of the others. either due to money/ horsepower/ lack of traning/ lack of competition/ back dated resources for care/training and so...
so for them to also take part and show their best eventers to the world would be better to have slighlty dumbed down course rather than lots and lots of accidents to people and horses.

The course in no way looked quite so easy as you would of thought, it was very tiring for alot of horses.
 
avthechav said:
...Are these rankings generated on a points value so across */ **/***/****?
If so although not a true measure of **** success it certainly is a measure of some value. This would actually show that the ozzies are heads and shoulders above the rest of us.

If we then look at the FEI classics top 25 rankings for this year..

GBR 5
NZL 2
GER 2
AUS 11
USA 4
FRA 1

...again I guess with badders cancelled this is skewed but even so it shows the ozzies way above the rest of us!...and in fact Germany the same at New Zealand.

Oh I love being on summer hols...loads of time for random research :-)
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yes ranking is generated on points across the levels, so the HSBC Classic would be a better measure, 2012 not finished so suggest you look at the 2011 rankings.

Plus due to each individual countries selection process for the olympics this year might not be a good measure.
 
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