What is the maximum level of bute you'd give your retired pony?

I'm currently trying to make this decision for my 17 yr old 14.2 pony. He's had hock arthritis since he was 12 and previously got to a stage where he was happy to do whatever on 1/2 a bute a day but then I went away to uni, loaned him out to a few different people, loaner felt he was sound without the bute but he then had a persistent problem with picking a hind leg up that vet never got to bottom of, which seemed to periodically clear up then start again. Took him back a few months ago, had a call to say he'd been stuck down in the field (was up by time I got there), had a few different vets scratch their heads over him before his original vet decided it was prob just all connected to his arthritis as opposed to some weird, mystical thing that nobody could get to the bottom of, buted him up to the eyeballs and after a month or so improvement with leg. On vet's advice started riding in walk again and dropped bute to one a day but went lame within a few weeks so upped bute again and retired. Now in a bit of a dilemma as I've a pony who is now on 2 bute a day to keep him sound (or as close to it as he can get) as well as synequin. I do not feel it is fair to ride him on this dose (although as things stand he would probably be sound enough for a potter at least if I did feel that way inclined - but I know he won't potter if I take him out alone and who the heck wants to be tagging along for boring walks round the block?) and if this is truly the dose he needs to keep sound now then that scares me a little as I wouldn't want him on any more than that long term (can't say I'm thrilled at this dose). Sure he can "get by" without if "getting by" means that he can't have one of his feet picked out or trimmed and that he struggles to get up sometimes but yep he'd still be able to potter round the field grazing (no doubt would still give running round like a loon a go too!). Still trying to tinker with his dose at the minute to see if I can get it any lower but if I can't then I can't. Were he to require more than this then I think I'm going to have a serious chat with my vet (gonna be having one of them anyway if he has to stay on current dose)
 
I completely feel for you, I have just had my bog boy pts following a year saga with annular ligament syndrome (both fore legs), tear in ddft (right), pocket of fluid in left fore, arthritic changes in right fore coffin/fetlock. All had been medicated and operated on. Box rest/controlled exercise etc etc and he managed to tear tendon again - god knows how - he didn't go anywhere?! Anyway I based my decision on that he wouldn't be field sound and if he did get there he would have to be on long term bute to just be able to potter around a field. I felt that this would strip him from his quality of life and prevent him from 'being a horse'. I think people keep their animals going because they cannot bare to be without them and I have to say I did contemplate doing all of the above just so i didn't have to loose my pride and joy.
As some have stated, you get to the point where you know your own horse, I had spent the last year tending to his every needs (with great pride and pleasure - i may add) and I had noticed that when he went significantly lame again he was depressed being in his box all day, he wasnt the friendly chap he always was nickering at me to hurry up with his tea!
There is no right or wrong answer to this question and it has to be something that you have to feel inside, you have to be honest and blunt with yourself and ask yourself your reasons for putting him on bute indefinately? I hated having the power to decide the fate of another living creature, but I owed my boy that much to let him go when I did.
I am sure the decision you make will be the right for you both, as afterall it will be made with great love - best of luck x
 
Reading all replies with great interest too. My 21 year old was recently diagnosed with ems and having difficulty keeping him sound and laminitis free. Alos suffers from navicular so suppose lucky to have still been competing till last year. He's on half in morning half at night. I always said that when it came to it i would never let him live out the rest of his days in a box so was happy that he is able to at least go out to sandschool during the day. would like him to be comfortable and if it comes to the point when he's not then i think i will know. Hope that he will let me know! Had him 16 years so like to think its the last thing i could do for him. Its not easy tho.
 
If bute sachets were instead made into tablets and a small and as cheap an paracetamol or aspirin I don't think any of us would be having this debate. I don't think we'd even give it a second thought. But its only that a 'sachet of bute' costs so much and is so 'large' looking that it makes us start thinking.

Again, its like the wormer scenario. They are made safe in case some idiot gives ten instead of two to their horse in one go. I think the safety range before the horse falls ill is something like five x original dose and even then it wouldn't die, it would just get colic or something. I would have thought the margin of error wouldbe something like that too with bute.
 
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applecart14 said:
If bute sachets were instead made into tablets and a small and as cheap an paracetamol or aspirin I don't think any of us would be having this debate. I don't think we'd even give it a second thought. But its only that a 'sachet of bute' costs so much and is so 'large' looking that it makes us start thinking.
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No, thats really, really, not the reason I'm asking this question. Bute isn't expensive, about 70p a sachet, I'm willing to pay that and more. I'm thinking because I care deeply about my pony and I want him to be happy and comfortable to the end. My worry is I give him so much bute I start to miss the bigger picture of it being time to do the right thing.

With any drug there has to be a safe maximum sustainable dose for long term use surely? I'll obv be talking about that with my vet.

Thanks again to all of you who have shared your thoughts and experiences. Sending good vibes to all of you who have been or are in a similar position.
 
rockysmum said:
I've had this discussion many times about my 36 year old. The answer I have come to is, as much as he needs to keep him pain free. If that destroys his liver, then so what, not being uncaring in that by the way.

They need a quality of life and that means pain free. Better a couple of years happy than 10 years in pain.

That said my boy isn't on it at all yet, but I have made my plans and decisions ahead of it happening.

He was on it a few years ago in Winter when we were on a very high cold windy yard. Since we moved down into the valley he doesn't need it.

I have read all the arguments about keeping them moving, but have gone for the pampered pony approach. He is never allowed to get cold or wet. He comes in at night all year round. He wears plenty of rugs in winter and if necessary leg warmers. And he's a cob :D:D

He was being ridden lightly until last back end and still drags us to the field and gallops round with his friends.
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I agree totally with this there is lots of pros and cons and people arguing about damaging the liver but if he is i that much pain why not the other opotion would be to pts an by the time his liver is rotted he would be dead anyway as it takes a long time - I know a old hunter that was hunted twice a week on 4 bute a day and lived happily to a ripe old age !
 
I've just done some proper research using peer-review papers and all say 4gms is the maximum does, so 4 sachets it is then assuming nothing else comes up in the long term.

One I found which also suggests any more than this is not worth it:

"In particular, our results would suggest that there is no benefit in administering phenylbutazone at dosages higher than 4.4 mg/kg/d, IV, in horses with navicular syndrome." (Helen H. Hu, et. al 2005)

Helen, H. Hu. et al. 2005. Evaluation of the analgesic effects of phenylbutazone administered at a high or low dosage in horses with chronic lameness. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. 226(3) pp.414-417

The full report is available freely online if anyone wants to read it. http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.2005.226.414
 
sarahann1 said:
No, thats really, really, not the reason I'm asking this question. Bute isn't expensive, about 70p a sachet, I'm willing to pay that and more. I'm thinking because I care deeply about my pony and I want him to be happy and comfortable to the end. My worry is I give him so much bute I start to miss the bigger picture of it being time to do the right thing.
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Its okay hun it wasn't a criticism, it was just that you have to take into account the extra cost. Say if your horse needed two sachets, that's £1.40 a day, that's £9.80 a week, that's over £509 a year!!! 3 sachets a day would be £766 a year. Its a lot of extra money to find when owning a horse is so very expensive anyway. Of course if it were my horse I would find the extra money too. I know the worry is about long term effects but I really wouldn't worry to much about that. I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
 
Hiya, this post has been playing on my mind.
I am sure you have tried to exhaust all avenues, but is there a supplement you could give other than bute, ie devils claw synequin. Something that makes his life a little bit more comfortable. I know this doesn't answer your question as such but I have read that these are very good for easing joints etc
Just thought I would mention x
 
Even the rescue charities have limit at which they decide to call it a day. I went to a talk on the older horse given by a Vet from a major rescue charity - if I remember correctly once a pony needs 2 a day maintenance dose (4 for a larger horse) they consider it time to call it a day. Over this for a short term crisis is ok, but not for maintenance. This was because when a pony/horse needs this level of dose you are usually looking at multiple issues that often have conflicting management needs and keeping the right balance for the animals welfare is getting hard if not impossible.
 
hairycob said:
Even the rescue charities have limit at which they decide to call it a day. I went to a talk on the older horse given by a Vet from a major rescue charity - if I remember correctly once a pony needs 2 a day maintenance dose (4 for a larger horse) they consider it time to call it a day. Over this for a short term crisis is ok, but not for maintenance. This was because when a pony/horse needs this level of dose you are usually looking at multiple issues that often have conflicting management needs and keeping the right balance for the animals welfare is getting hard if not impossible.
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And at some point the cost has to become a factor. I just bought 100 bute for about 99 pounds. Just using it for the farriers visit and other bits and bobs it will last me a year or two. At 4 a day I would be buying over a box a month :eek: Not saying mine aren't worth it, but with three to keep it would become a burden
 
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