wench
Well-Known Member
Henry gets one on at a competition and when schooling. He is perfectly happy, he is however very lazy and opens and shuts his mouth no matter what bit he is in so he can avoid doing as much work as possible. It works for him.
What is the problem with flash nosebands???
- Thread starter kafrin181995
- Start date
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
I suppose the main reason why i dislike flashes and other nosebands that keep the mouth closed is that it doesnt address the actual issue of WHY the horse is opening its mouth.
Is the bit hurting it? Are you rough with your hands? Is it a learned behaviour? Is he frightened?
I think a lot of people underestimate the pain that can be caused by the bit, even in good hands. A horse that is happy in the bit will NOT open his mouth, but a horse who is uncomfortable or in pin will open his mouth to try to evade the bit.
Why does the horse try to evade th bit? Because it hurts him.
The reason that the flash works is because when the horse realises that he cannot escape the pain and by pulling or trying to open his mouth, its gonna hurt more. It makes him more cooperative because he doesnt have any choice. A flash basically shuts him up, doesnt allow him a say. But it wont stop the bit hurting him.
A horse who is evading the bit and opening his mouth is shouting for someone to listen, but many people dont hear. I think we have to be prepared to listen to our horses when they are so obviously trying to tell us something, instead of trying to keep them quiet with gadgets.
I think that what is best for the horse is to get her a bit that she likes, one that she is happy to wear, and take it right back to basics and teach her to be soft for the bit.
If you really cant find a bit she likes, try taking it away. It might suprise you how well horses will work once you take the big hunk of metal out of their mouth.
If your gonna try this, Try to find a friend or instructor who is familiar with bitless bridles. Sometimes horses need a little help adapting to being ridden with the control on the nose and head instead of the mouth, but they adapt pretty well.
If you really dont want to try this, try a micklem multi bridle. It has an attchment that connects the bit to the noseband, so the rein presure is transmitted to the nose as well as the mouth. A lot of horses like this, as pressure isnt directly going to the sensitive mouth.
Ps, if its behavioural, a lot of the time it can be resolved with correct basic schooling in a kind bit. Unfortunately a lot of people assume that the horse is just messing when he is in fact in pain. Its a shame horses canot cry out when they are in pain. If they could, i dont think thebit would everhave been used for horses.
Its funny, a lot of people think there horse dislikes working and is awkward, but are supprised at how well the horse works in a bitless.
Is the bit hurting it? Are you rough with your hands? Is it a learned behaviour? Is he frightened?
I think a lot of people underestimate the pain that can be caused by the bit, even in good hands. A horse that is happy in the bit will NOT open his mouth, but a horse who is uncomfortable or in pin will open his mouth to try to evade the bit.
Why does the horse try to evade th bit? Because it hurts him.
The reason that the flash works is because when the horse realises that he cannot escape the pain and by pulling or trying to open his mouth, its gonna hurt more. It makes him more cooperative because he doesnt have any choice. A flash basically shuts him up, doesnt allow him a say. But it wont stop the bit hurting him.
A horse who is evading the bit and opening his mouth is shouting for someone to listen, but many people dont hear. I think we have to be prepared to listen to our horses when they are so obviously trying to tell us something, instead of trying to keep them quiet with gadgets.
I think that what is best for the horse is to get her a bit that she likes, one that she is happy to wear, and take it right back to basics and teach her to be soft for the bit.
If you really cant find a bit she likes, try taking it away. It might suprise you how well horses will work once you take the big hunk of metal out of their mouth.
If your gonna try this, Try to find a friend or instructor who is familiar with bitless bridles. Sometimes horses need a little help adapting to being ridden with the control on the nose and head instead of the mouth, but they adapt pretty well.
If you really dont want to try this, try a micklem multi bridle. It has an attchment that connects the bit to the noseband, so the rein presure is transmitted to the nose as well as the mouth. A lot of horses like this, as pressure isnt directly going to the sensitive mouth.
Ps, if its behavioural, a lot of the time it can be resolved with correct basic schooling in a kind bit. Unfortunately a lot of people assume that the horse is just messing when he is in fact in pain. Its a shame horses canot cry out when they are in pain. If they could, i dont think thebit would everhave been used for horses.
Its funny, a lot of people think there horse dislikes working and is awkward, but are supprised at how well the horse works in a bitless.
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indiat
Well-Known Member
If there are sides on this, I suspect we are on the same one
Cup of tea and a biccy?
Sorry! That was a bit defensive. Brie is a bit of a dilemma. She was soured by working in the school and never really was a child's pony. She used to be owned by an elderly couple who drove her and then left her to their farrier when they died. Problem was he didn't know about this and didn't want her so she was passed onto the RS and it didn't work out. YO would sell her but she hates most children and can't be worked very hard because she is broken winded. She suits my eight year old becuase she doesn't want to go eventing or driving up and down hills. To be fair to her, she has settled with us. She was very aggressive at first but now she is as good as gold in hand. But like I say a very forward going and very clever mare. The flash isn't ideal but it gets them in a place where they communicate. Brie needs lots of complicated work to keep her happy. I can't lunge her because she is too old and I can't ride her because I am too big. So my daughter rides at weekends mostly and school holidays, plugging away on her own because the RI won't let Brie into group lessons for obvious reasons. My instructor only teaches through the week and I do notice a big improvement when they have private lessons with her. And they are entering their first dressage comp in a couple of weeks! Hopefully, by the end of the summer, there will be a big improvement in their relationship. She is an old girl now and will be with us until the end of her days, as despite it all, we love her dearly. She knows her job and is very big hearted. Duaghter needs to ride her cleverly and be on top of her all the time but that's a big ask from an eight year old.
But the really bizzarre thing? Put her on a leading rein and she is an angel, its like leading a butterfly!
PS She only tanks when bored. When daughter is well rested (unlike now, the end of term) and really puts the effort in varying her schooling they don't have a problem. So I know its not pain.
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Steorra
Well-Known Member
I agree in principle. If a piece of kit is not detrimental to the horse's well being, it makes no difference whether (s)he wears it or not.
Equally, if a flash is needed as a temporary solution then that is fair enough, if it has been established that the horse is not in pain before it is used.
However, my main problem with flashes is that they treat a symptom rather than a cause. Not everyone who uses a flash does this, but I've met a fair few who think that because the horse's mouth had been forced shut they have solved the problem - and this is simply no true.
Horses open their mouths for lots of reasons: pain, heavy hands on the rider's part, evading work etc. Putting a flash on won't make these problems go away, and in my view it is important to get to the root of the issue and resolve it.
Secondly, a rider I know once told me that her horse would not go on the bit without a flash. Firstly, I had ridden the horse, and this was simply not true. Secondly, if the horse truly wouldn't go 'on the bit' without a flash, then I can't see how she could do it with one. To me, this phrase refers to a horse in self carriage, accepting all the aids from the rider, and moving freely forwards in a roun outline. If a rider can only get the horse to work well in a flash then I'm sorry but the horse is not truly accepting the contact.
So, to conclude my little rant (!) I'm not meaning to be judgemental, as I genuinely think a flash CAN (not must) be detrimental to a horse. They encourage riders to look for quick fixes when in fact they need to look at the horse's welfare and, more often than not, their own riding.
Not saying I'm perfect myself, that's for sure! And I reiterate, I'm not having a go at anyone who uses a flash; who am I to do that? But I'm stating my own view. Cos I'm have a fair few opinions, in case anyone hadn't noticed
Steorra
Well-Known Member
Good luck with her, Indiat! And good for your daughter, for taking on a challenge.
indiat
Well-Known Member
I make her sound like a monster, she's not. But she is very much a one person animal and a complicated character to boot. I do admire my daughter - I don't think I would ride a 15hh equivalent of Brie, but that's love for you!
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Ditto. (Although I know I'm not a jelly head dumb ass, lol)
Horses open their mouths, with the bit in, for a reason. You do not see them doing this in the field. IMO it is better to discover the reason than to strap the mouth shut without knowing what the problem is.
OneInAMillion
Well-Known Member
If I out one I my horse he would kill me, so I dont use one but if he needed it and it worked then I would definitely use one, why not if it works?!
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
How can that possibly be the case for ALL horses??
Mines avoids the bit when we are schooling or doing fast work by the simple expedient of opening the mouth and sodding off.
With a flash on he does neither, I have a nice relaxed horse for schooling and brakes for fast work. Normal hacking is done without and jumping is done without so whats the problem with using something when you NEED it???
Nikki xxx
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
I guess it depends on wether or not you feel that the bit hurts the horse.
If he runs away with you, this is a training issue as well as a pain issue.
If he has learnt to pull, either by hard hands or an inexperienced rider, then you will have to pull him up. If you didnt pull the reins, he wouldnt open his mouth because the bit wouldnt hurt him.
So i would recommend that he be taught not to run off or misbehave so that you dont have to pull on him and cause him to open his mouth.
After all, it takes two to pull.
When he understands how to go at the desired pace you ask for, you should hardly ever need to pull on his mouth. Its a far to sensitive place to be used for the brakes.
I think too many people assume that the bit is for the brakes, so if a horse hasnt got good brakes, put a stronger bit or a flash, or both on him. It will make him more complient, but doesnt solve the problem.
I dont believe the horses mouth should be used for the brakes. So if you dont have to pull reins, hurt mouth, mouth wont open.
I suppose that just because the horse doesnt cry out in pain, i should assume that the bit doesnt hurt. Its just that the horse gives us so many signals to tell us it does.
I would rather refrain from using something in case in hurts them, instead of using something with the chance that it doesnt.
annaellie
Well-Known Member
There was no question about it my boy was behavior, The snaffle I started him in was the one he had till he was PTS years later
. For the first few years we tried all sorts of bits not a blind bit of difference. I also trusted my instructor 100% he trained with one of the top eventers and was amazing and was patient as hell with my boy. It took lots of hard work but the flash helped while we having the evading issues he also bucked and bolted and while being led reared and boxed down on handler. If it was down to him being in pain and me just thinking it was behavior, then I wouldnt of been able to take the flash away while using the same bit and have no problems what so ever with him trying to evade the bit after schooling the big sod
bliss87
Well-Known Member
my instructor wants me to take my horses grackle off his double and put a flash on his flat noceband instead just because "it will make his head look better"
Irishlife
Well-Known Member
In my experience grackles are more comfortable for the horse. I don't entirely agree a horse's bitting or mouth "issues" can be schooled away because some horses who have a fussy mouth go better in a flash, grackle or drop noseband because it holds the bit more still and static in the mouth which a lot of horses prefer.
To me the awful crank noseband is hideous not only because more often than not it is seen too tight, it also applies a lot of pressure on the horse's cheeks and molars - ouch.
To me the awful crank noseband is hideous not only because more often than not it is seen too tight, it also applies a lot of pressure on the horse's cheeks and molars - ouch.
Natch
Well-Known Member
I agree with this on the whole, and think its sensible to always try to be working towards the minimm tack and gadgets, and the kindest bit. That also means assessing your riding too.
I think far too often - and I'm guilty of this - people experience their horse opening his mouth, and immediately strap it shut, without investigating the reason why he is doing so.
I'm not against flash straps, I have used one on Frankie - the reason I don't at the moment is because at the moment on the whole he isn't opening his mouth to evade me. I like to think I know him well enough to know the difference between a horse who is being a strong tempered git and one who is saying ow that hurts.
MontyandZoom
Well-Known Member
I agree!! I have an ex-polo pony who is fussy in her mouth because she HAS been hurt by harsh bits in the past. She is simply not happy in a cavesson. She goes much better with a flash on.
To be honest I think it's pretty bloody offensive to think that ANYONE who uses a flash is too lazy to school through the problem! I have done hours of schooling with Zoom and she has improved, but the memories of high goal polo do not go away!
horseandshoes77
Well-Known Member
i use a flash on my dales cos he needs one, my mares in a grackle cos she crosses her jaw, both are fine ( in my opinion) as long as horse needs them.
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
I have two TBs and both are ridden in loose ring snaffles and cavesson nosebands. My old boy had a terrible habit of having his mouth open all the time....I took some lessons from a classical dressage instructor who taught me the importance of having light hands, and bingo he shuts his mouth. I now know that whenever he opens his mouth, it is due to my error and my hands being too heavy - not the horse being awkward. I almost resorted to a flash, but I feel such a sense of achievement when I finish a dressage test and he has kept his mouth closed throughout the whole test. The only time he seems to do it now, are trot-walk transitions....and it is my fault as I am being too heavy with him.
suzysparkle
Well-Known Member
I don't like flashes because of where they lie on the Horses face. To be effective, they need to be done up reasonably firmly. The cavesson part lies below the cheekbones and this can squash the inner cheek onto the molar teeth and when the Horse mouths the bit could be uncomfortable. Try yourself by pressing with your fingers beside your molar teeth and 'chewing' with your mouth closed.
A high ring grackle sits on top of the cheek bones so even done up tight it cannot cause this discomfort. It also sits higher so can't restrict breathing - a flash might. A drop sits lower thus doesn't sit over the molars, but because of its postion doesn't need to be done up as tight as a flash does. Fitted correctly it also shouldn't restrict breathing as it doesn't need to be done up firmly to be effective.
Flashes were invented for Horses that 'needed' a drop noseband but also a standing martingale. You rarely see standing martingales but you very often see flashes.
I use a drop most of the time and a grackle for jumping. I do this as my Horse does get keen and the grackle gives me more control without resorting to a stronger bit and this works for him. For cross country there is also the danger that if you get left behind and hang onto the reins the Horse will open his mouth. If he then pecks on landing with his mouth open and hits the ground he could break his jaw. I have personally seen this happen with a Horse in a cavesson noseband. A drop / grackle / flash prevents this possibility. And lets face it - we all have moments where this could happen!!
A high ring grackle sits on top of the cheek bones so even done up tight it cannot cause this discomfort. It also sits higher so can't restrict breathing - a flash might. A drop sits lower thus doesn't sit over the molars, but because of its postion doesn't need to be done up as tight as a flash does. Fitted correctly it also shouldn't restrict breathing as it doesn't need to be done up firmly to be effective.
Flashes were invented for Horses that 'needed' a drop noseband but also a standing martingale. You rarely see standing martingales but you very often see flashes.
I use a drop most of the time and a grackle for jumping. I do this as my Horse does get keen and the grackle gives me more control without resorting to a stronger bit and this works for him. For cross country there is also the danger that if you get left behind and hang onto the reins the Horse will open his mouth. If he then pecks on landing with his mouth open and hits the ground he could break his jaw. I have personally seen this happen with a Horse in a cavesson noseband. A drop / grackle / flash prevents this possibility. And lets face it - we all have moments where this could happen!!
zebadee
Well-Known Member
i am think about one for my pony as she always opening her mouth and then i have no control over her, she does what she likes i used my old horses grackle on her once just to see and she went better soo might get a flash, i dont see the problem with them because you see a lot off horses with them on that dont need them, if you go to a riding school you might be riding a very strong horse but hardly any of them at my riding centre have them.
melxvengeance
Well-Known Member
Wait a minute....one minute you say your horse was in a pelham for schooling, and then go on to say you struggle with the concept of severe tack? Am I not right in assuming that a pelham is a severe bit? I used to have a pelham on my fjord, I now ride him in a snaffle and yes I do use a flash...he has no pain issues, he's had back/teeth etc done regularly, but he still opens his mouth to evade the bit because he's a cheeky sod. He does this to get out of doing real work.
And also...there are people saying that a grackle should be used instead of a flash...I thought a grackle was to stop a horse from crossing it's jaw, is that not entirely different from opening the mouth?
baymareb
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that the grackle is for both.
I agree that people tend to depend on these things too much. There are plenty of riders who go directly to the flash and never think to try schooling or bitting methods to resolve the issue. And it's true that it's getting very hard to find a dressage bridle that doesn't come standard with a flash - many people just automatically use it because "everyone does."
But I also think there are horses that are more comfortable with a still bit, who work better with a flash or grackle (I prefer the grackle myself because of its position on the face). I suspect horses like that have had some issues in the past with heavy-handed riders or ill-fitting tack but whatever the reason, it seems to be the case.
I don't consider a flash noseband to be a horrible thing, just not something I'd immediately jump to. I'm certainly not going to be distressed to see someone else using one and there are occasions I might do so myself.