imafluffybunny
Well-Known Member
What is the purpose of the futurity? I would like to take my Hannovarian filly next year as a yearling, for experience if nothing else, is it purely for the vets/judges comments? does it make them more saleable?
What is the purpose of the Futurity?
- Thread starter imafluffybunny
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CrazyMare
Well-Known Member
Well I took mine for the unbiased, experianced view of the judges as well as for a good experiance.
I came away with good scores, but as a pony owner/breeder at times it does feel the ponies are an afterthought. One judge was experianced in ponies but opted not to judge my foal due to a connection which was fine, however at the Championships I felt that the ponies missed out with regards to judges. Thats only my personal thoughts though.
I will go again, and take future youngstock too. Although I don't think it neccasarily adds value, I think its a good way of helping to prove their worth.
I came away with good scores, but as a pony owner/breeder at times it does feel the ponies are an afterthought. One judge was experianced in ponies but opted not to judge my foal due to a connection which was fine, however at the Championships I felt that the ponies missed out with regards to judges. Thats only my personal thoughts though.
I will go again, and take future youngstock too. Although I don't think it neccasarily adds value, I think its a good way of helping to prove their worth.
volatis
Well-Known Member
I dont think it adds to value sadly. Foals I havent taken to the futurity have been just as saleable as ones I have, if not more so sometimes
I use the futurity series as an assessment tool, to highlight areas of weakness in my breeding program (and strengths) by having an external opinion of the youngstock. I might not always agree with everything they say but it is a very good way of having a sporthorse properly assessed, as sadly most SHB sporthorse classes dont seem to be judged by sporthorse judges.
I use the futurity series as an assessment tool, to highlight areas of weakness in my breeding program (and strengths) by having an external opinion of the youngstock. I might not always agree with everything they say but it is a very good way of having a sporthorse properly assessed, as sadly most SHB sporthorse classes dont seem to be judged by sporthorse judges.
BSM456
Well-Known Member
It's purpose is surely to act as a tool in improving the state of breeding in Britain. It's a necessary tool providing it's open and honest and the correct judges are used to assess each category.
I like the fact that show horse judges are very hot on conformation, but don't like the fact (IMHO) that they have little or no experience of performance horse breeding. Perhaps judges with performance horse breeding experience could be used in the future, although there is an expense.
I also don't really like that breeders who work within the organisation/structure of British Breeding/the Futurity present their horses. As everything in a futurity is opinion based, it doesn't sit well with me, although I can't offer an alternative.
Having seen a couple of Futurity's this year and last, I felt that many of the youngsters were too highly marked, with "Elite" being handed out when it was nowhere near Elite (it was still a very nice foal).
Like any tool, if it's applied and used correctly the Futurity can work very well, it does in other countries. However, less experienced breeders should be aware of the enormous disconnect between foal shows and the competition ring. Breeding pretty foals is very nice, but how does it translate in the disciplines?
I like the fact that show horse judges are very hot on conformation, but don't like the fact (IMHO) that they have little or no experience of performance horse breeding. Perhaps judges with performance horse breeding experience could be used in the future, although there is an expense.
I also don't really like that breeders who work within the organisation/structure of British Breeding/the Futurity present their horses. As everything in a futurity is opinion based, it doesn't sit well with me, although I can't offer an alternative.
Having seen a couple of Futurity's this year and last, I felt that many of the youngsters were too highly marked, with "Elite" being handed out when it was nowhere near Elite (it was still a very nice foal).
Like any tool, if it's applied and used correctly the Futurity can work very well, it does in other countries. However, less experienced breeders should be aware of the enormous disconnect between foal shows and the competition ring. Breeding pretty foals is very nice, but how does it translate in the disciplines?
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
Like volatis, I see it as a great opportunity to have my young horses put under an experienced eye, I do want to know what their weak points are and I do want to know what I can improve on. It is also superb education for the babies, and sets them up for their life as a competition horse.
I also feel that it is a great opportunity to see lots of youngsters in one place at the same time. I can then have a look at their breeding and how they have turned out. Gives me a good idea of what stallions are producing what youngsters.
I know that not all the top youngsters in the country are being put forward, I hope that in the future this will change, but I have seen some outstanding ones presented.
I agree with BSM456 that there is a huge difference between foal/youngster shows and the competition ring (one of my main grudges regarding the Championships), it will be interesting to see in the future how the Elite evaluated youngsters do in the competition rings of the future.
I also feel that it is a great opportunity to see lots of youngsters in one place at the same time. I can then have a look at their breeding and how they have turned out. Gives me a good idea of what stallions are producing what youngsters.
I know that not all the top youngsters in the country are being put forward, I hope that in the future this will change, but I have seen some outstanding ones presented.
I agree with BSM456 that there is a huge difference between foal/youngster shows and the competition ring (one of my main grudges regarding the Championships), it will be interesting to see in the future how the Elite evaluated youngsters do in the competition rings of the future.
arwenplusone
Well-Known Member
As a breeder with one/two foals a year, for me the futurity is more about comparing what I have bred with its peer group and to see if I have bred the best that I possibly can. I consider myself pretty good on conformation but I ma not a vet, neither am i a sports horse judge with 30+ yrs of experience. IMO it is a great way to get your youngstock infront of some well respected experts and get a professional opinion on them. What you then do with that opinion is up to you!
As to adding to the saleability, I agree with volatis on this one - not seen any difference tbh.
Partoow
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I like the fact that show horse judges are very hot on conformation, but don't like the fact (IMHO) that they have little or no experience of performance horse breeding. Perhaps judges with performance horse breeding experience could be used in the future, although there is an expense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok , as some one who knows a bit about the judging side of this series i will take issue with this.I think you will find that actually many of the judges used are actually from 'performance horse breeding first and foremost and that the training recieved was and is from German performance horse assessors.
The value of the Futurity is like any tool. It is what you do with it in terms of the information that it gives.
In time the value of all youngstock will hopefully increase; as in time; it should lead to the improvement of what is bred in terms of quality and 'fit for purpose'.
We have seen some outstanding mares but as of yet the stallions which have been used on them have not always lead to a better foal.
By looking around and seeing the off spring , the stamp of sires and the type of mare and the purpose that the horse is intended further along in its life the Futurity gives information.
As for the Elites not being 'elite' well funnily enough most of the top horses have gone on to great things that we have recognised as 'elite' whether that be as graded stallions or as recognised top off spring in their own particular stud books or in the case of one of the 'elite' eventers being bought by Mark Todd as a future Olympic event horse.
The Fututrity is an evolving process and , as we discussed at length at the 'wash up ' meeting there are improvements to be made.On the whole however it has helped breeders that are often in isolation become less so and enabled them to start to see the bigger picture in terms of 'Performance horse breeding and the ability to produce horses that will be structuraly sound for what ever career at ALL levels of performance..
I like the fact that show horse judges are very hot on conformation, but don't like the fact (IMHO) that they have little or no experience of performance horse breeding. Perhaps judges with performance horse breeding experience could be used in the future, although there is an expense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok , as some one who knows a bit about the judging side of this series i will take issue with this.I think you will find that actually many of the judges used are actually from 'performance horse breeding first and foremost and that the training recieved was and is from German performance horse assessors.
The value of the Futurity is like any tool. It is what you do with it in terms of the information that it gives.
In time the value of all youngstock will hopefully increase; as in time; it should lead to the improvement of what is bred in terms of quality and 'fit for purpose'.
We have seen some outstanding mares but as of yet the stallions which have been used on them have not always lead to a better foal.
By looking around and seeing the off spring , the stamp of sires and the type of mare and the purpose that the horse is intended further along in its life the Futurity gives information.
As for the Elites not being 'elite' well funnily enough most of the top horses have gone on to great things that we have recognised as 'elite' whether that be as graded stallions or as recognised top off spring in their own particular stud books or in the case of one of the 'elite' eventers being bought by Mark Todd as a future Olympic event horse.
The Fututrity is an evolving process and , as we discussed at length at the 'wash up ' meeting there are improvements to be made.On the whole however it has helped breeders that are often in isolation become less so and enabled them to start to see the bigger picture in terms of 'Performance horse breeding and the ability to produce horses that will be structuraly sound for what ever career at ALL levels of performance..
pinktiger
Well-Known Member
it opens a massive window to british breeding for me, i cant wait to see in a few years time how the youngstock evaluated at ELITE are doing ( i think they will be doing very well tho)! A learning curve and an eye opener also being my first year. Its only going to improve(only been running a few years i bel), i understand that there are going to be improvements and it will evolve. The format this year, for me, gave me brilliant/very interesting feedback about the horses conformation/jump/temp/athletisism/that was put infront of the evaluators/vet. Well organised and proffessional imho.
Ciss
Well-Known Member
Completely agree with Partoow and do have to say that I am mystified by this particualr comment, as I think I know all the evaluators pretty well and cannot think of one that does not either have international sport horse and grading judgeing experience or years of successful sport horse breeding experience (most actually have both) so I am not sure where the poster is coming from.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the fact that show horse judges are very hot on conformation, but don't like the fact (IMHO) that they have little or no experience of performance horse breeding. Perhaps judges with performance horse breeding experience could be used in the future, although there is an expense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok , as some one who knows a bit about the judging side of this series i will take issue with this.I think you will find that actually many of the judges used are actually from 'performance horse breeding first and foremost and that the training recieved was and is from German performance horse assessors.
The value of the Futurity is like any tool. It is what you do with it in terms of the information that it gives.
In time the value of all youngstock will hopefully increase; as in time; it should lead to the improvement of what is bred in terms of quality and 'fit for purpose'.
We have seen some outstanding mares but as of yet the stallions which have been used on them have not always lead to a better foal.
By looking around and seeing the off spring , the stamp of sires and the type of mare and the purpose that the horse is intended further along in its life the Futurity gives information.
As for the Elites not being 'elite' well funnily enough most of the top horses have gone on to great things that we have recognised as 'elite' whether that be as graded stallions or as recognised top off spring in their own particular stud books or in the case of one of the 'elite' eventers being bought by Mark Todd as a future Olympic event horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
And in addition to Land Vision (who scored very highly on both his paces and his athleticism, jump etc) there is also the Advanced event mare Trebetherick (top graded SHBGB mare this year) and Treswigga (another in the SHBGB top 10), BWBS grading champion Flaynes Daiquiri, BWBS-graded stallion Deanes San Ciro Hit and SHBGB graded stallion Valeur R and well as Zubin R now doing very well in young Showjumping Horse classes in Germany as befits the first horse ever to get a 10 for loose jumping. The double Elite stallion Amour G was also graded WBB(UK) last month so they keep coming through.
And as far as high prices for foals is concerned the top priced foal at the Botterills Showjumping Auction at Addington in August was the fist premium Millfield Darin (Berlin/Lux Z/ Carlato) who fetched £11,200 in the iddle of the credit crunch. In fact if you look at recent issues of Horse and Hound and Horse Deals the fact that foals and youngsters have Elite or 1st premiums is certainly promoted in the adverts and I'll bet that those are the ones that potential buyers look at first now.
[ QUOTE ]
The Fututrity is an evolving process and , as we discussed at length at the 'wash up ' meeting there are improvements to be made.On the whole however it has helped breeders that are often in isolation become less so and enabled them to start to see the bigger picture in terms of 'Performance horse breeding and the ability to produce horses that will be structuraly sound for what ever career at ALL levels of performance..
[/ QUOTE ]
And with the guidelines of selection being very much geared to the requirements of the BEF Equine Development Programme and the World Class Performance Scheme (the input of Yogi Breisner, both at the evaluator training course and the Elite Championships was of terrific help) the two basic aims of the scheme, to see where excellence in potential performance lies, and to identify the sires and dams that are producing these horses/ponies in the UK (now through NED analysis of data and eventually leading to the development of Equine Breeding Values for UK-bases stallions and mares) it is really making an impact.
BTW, full results and a statistical breakdown of the Futurity results are included in the forthcming issue of The British Breeder, due out at the beginning of December. All Futurity participants that acheived an Elite or 1st premium with any entry will receive a free copy automatically but if you do not fall into that category and would still like a copy please PM me with your full name and address and I will get you added to the mailing list.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the fact that show horse judges are very hot on conformation, but don't like the fact (IMHO) that they have little or no experience of performance horse breeding. Perhaps judges with performance horse breeding experience could be used in the future, although there is an expense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok , as some one who knows a bit about the judging side of this series i will take issue with this.I think you will find that actually many of the judges used are actually from 'performance horse breeding first and foremost and that the training recieved was and is from German performance horse assessors.
The value of the Futurity is like any tool. It is what you do with it in terms of the information that it gives.
In time the value of all youngstock will hopefully increase; as in time; it should lead to the improvement of what is bred in terms of quality and 'fit for purpose'.
We have seen some outstanding mares but as of yet the stallions which have been used on them have not always lead to a better foal.
By looking around and seeing the off spring , the stamp of sires and the type of mare and the purpose that the horse is intended further along in its life the Futurity gives information.
As for the Elites not being 'elite' well funnily enough most of the top horses have gone on to great things that we have recognised as 'elite' whether that be as graded stallions or as recognised top off spring in their own particular stud books or in the case of one of the 'elite' eventers being bought by Mark Todd as a future Olympic event horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
And in addition to Land Vision (who scored very highly on both his paces and his athleticism, jump etc) there is also the Advanced event mare Trebetherick (top graded SHBGB mare this year) and Treswigga (another in the SHBGB top 10), BWBS grading champion Flaynes Daiquiri, BWBS-graded stallion Deanes San Ciro Hit and SHBGB graded stallion Valeur R and well as Zubin R now doing very well in young Showjumping Horse classes in Germany as befits the first horse ever to get a 10 for loose jumping. The double Elite stallion Amour G was also graded WBB(UK) last month so they keep coming through.
And as far as high prices for foals is concerned the top priced foal at the Botterills Showjumping Auction at Addington in August was the fist premium Millfield Darin (Berlin/Lux Z/ Carlato) who fetched £11,200 in the iddle of the credit crunch. In fact if you look at recent issues of Horse and Hound and Horse Deals the fact that foals and youngsters have Elite or 1st premiums is certainly promoted in the adverts and I'll bet that those are the ones that potential buyers look at first now.
[ QUOTE ]
The Fututrity is an evolving process and , as we discussed at length at the 'wash up ' meeting there are improvements to be made.On the whole however it has helped breeders that are often in isolation become less so and enabled them to start to see the bigger picture in terms of 'Performance horse breeding and the ability to produce horses that will be structuraly sound for what ever career at ALL levels of performance..
[/ QUOTE ]
And with the guidelines of selection being very much geared to the requirements of the BEF Equine Development Programme and the World Class Performance Scheme (the input of Yogi Breisner, both at the evaluator training course and the Elite Championships was of terrific help) the two basic aims of the scheme, to see where excellence in potential performance lies, and to identify the sires and dams that are producing these horses/ponies in the UK (now through NED analysis of data and eventually leading to the development of Equine Breeding Values for UK-bases stallions and mares) it is really making an impact.
BTW, full results and a statistical breakdown of the Futurity results are included in the forthcming issue of The British Breeder, due out at the beginning of December. All Futurity participants that acheived an Elite or 1st premium with any entry will receive a free copy automatically but if you do not fall into that category and would still like a copy please PM me with your full name and address and I will get you added to the mailing list.
toffeesmarty
Well-Known Member
Can I add something slightly off topic? I think one of the main things needed is wider publicity of the purpose and the existence of the Futurity to UK horse owners.
Despite owning horses for over 25 years until I came on HHO I didn't know about BEF.
Whilst I agree that I might have just managed to avoid it, unless information about the scheme is more widely known the potential value and incentive of owning a youngster with Futurity grading will not increase. Perhaps there is an article in here H&H? If there's already been one- it proves I've been asleep as I've subscribed for 4 years.
Despite owning horses for over 25 years until I came on HHO I didn't know about BEF.
Whilst I agree that I might have just managed to avoid it, unless information about the scheme is more widely known the potential value and incentive of owning a youngster with Futurity grading will not increase. Perhaps there is an article in here H&H? If there's already been one- it proves I've been asleep as I've subscribed for 4 years.
Ciss
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps there is an article in here H&H? If there's already been one- it proves I've been asleep as I've subscribed for 4 years.
[/ QUOTE ]
We try we try .. but in an editorial culture where breeding is dismissed as 'not sexy' <ROFL> and it is widely known that if there is any pressure on space at all it is the Sport Horse / Breeding news that gets cut it is rather an uphill task. Evem so the dressage section of the Elite champs were covered (but by the writer asked to do the BD champs so the eventing, sj and ponies were not covered) and there is quite a bit in the regional horse mags in the lead up to the series. I also understadn that there will be quite a good tie up with the (much expanded and improved) news section of Horse Deals next year -- and of course there is the Horse and Country TV programme in preparation and the one of Scottish TV that has already been mentioned. I have to say listed like that not many breed or other shows in the breeding indiustry are getting that much covergae so I think that Jan is doing really well pushing it now.
Perhaps there is an article in here H&H? If there's already been one- it proves I've been asleep as I've subscribed for 4 years.
[/ QUOTE ]
We try we try .. but in an editorial culture where breeding is dismissed as 'not sexy' <ROFL> and it is widely known that if there is any pressure on space at all it is the Sport Horse / Breeding news that gets cut it is rather an uphill task. Evem so the dressage section of the Elite champs were covered (but by the writer asked to do the BD champs so the eventing, sj and ponies were not covered) and there is quite a bit in the regional horse mags in the lead up to the series. I also understadn that there will be quite a good tie up with the (much expanded and improved) news section of Horse Deals next year -- and of course there is the Horse and Country TV programme in preparation and the one of Scottish TV that has already been mentioned. I have to say listed like that not many breed or other shows in the breeding indiustry are getting that much covergae so I think that Jan is doing really well pushing it now.
toffeesmarty
Well-Known Member
I know I know !! LOL
As a writer I understand how difficult it can be to get commissions. It's finding that 'something different' which sets the story apart that is the key.
Maybe if Katie Price was to start (horse) breeding, that would be news-worthy and breeding could maximise the celebrity angle like dressage hopes too. Or maybe not?
As a writer I understand how difficult it can be to get commissions. It's finding that 'something different' which sets the story apart that is the key.
Maybe if Katie Price was to start (horse) breeding, that would be news-worthy and breeding could maximise the celebrity angle like dressage hopes too. Or maybe not?
BSM456
Well-Known Member
Regarding the Millfield foal, it's price had nothing to do with it's award at the Futurity. Nothing watsoever. The foal was bred by one of the UK foremost breeders, who always keeps her eye on the best stallions and those who are going to bring value to her youngstock (that means increase their value).
The buyer was the arab from Old Lodge (I think) and the foal was out of a decent motherline and by one of Europe's hottest stallions.
It was also a very good quality foal.
Those are the reasons it went for that price, nothing more.
The buyer was the arab from Old Lodge (I think) and the foal was out of a decent motherline and by one of Europe's hottest stallions.
It was also a very good quality foal.
Those are the reasons it went for that price, nothing more.
pinktiger
Well-Known Member
yes but didnt the Futurity agree its quality by awarding it a first premium!