What noseband do you use for BD, for horses who prefer a grackle?

Cptrayes, I think you need help. 50% of the posts from you that I see are attacking two people who don't seem to have ever done you any wrong. If you don't like someone, IGNORE them, don't hijack every thread where you can find even a slight connection to get a dig in.

I actually find your behaviour quite scary.

Isabelle
 
BeckyD said:
I've seen flash nosebands done up as you describe but the example you've given is one that is done up correctly and almost straight (unlike the browband). Did you mean to link to another picture?

ETS: Whoops I replied without reading further down - now see I'm not the only person to say that!
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It is not fitted as a normal cavesson. A normal cavesson sits straight around the nose, not bent down like this in front. The back strap is right up by his jowls and there is a pronounced drop in the front half. If you google flash nosebands you will see plenty of them fitted without pulling the cavesson down the nose.

The proof of the pudding in that photo is that if you took off the flash and set the cavesson straight on its own, it would look as if it was fitted ridiculously high.

As for the outrage as to the use of the picture, it was published on another thread for everyone to comment.

Will everyone accusing me of a vendetta of some kind please note the fact that it was Princess who said that I was talking rubbish when I was not, and I have simply pointed to a picture which was already in the public domain on this very forum illustrating exactly what I was talking about.
 
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IsabelleJ said:
Cptrayes, I think you need help. 50% of the posts from you that I see are attacking two people who don't seem to have ever done you any wrong. If you don't like someone, IGNORE them, don't hijack every thread where you can find even a slight connection to get a dig in.

I actually find your behaviour quite scary.

Isabelle
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You don't read enough of my posts :D Please put me on ignore if I scare you.
 
cptrayes said:
It is not fitted as a normal cavesson. A normal cavesson sits straight around the nose, not bent down like this in front. The back strap is right up by his jowls and there is a pronounced drop in the front half. If you google flash nosebands you will see plenty of them fitted without pulling the cavesson down the nose.

The proof of the pudding in that photo is that if you took off the flash and set the cavesson straight on its own, it would look as if it was fitted ridiculously high.

As for the outrage as to the use of the picture, it was published on another thread for everyone to comment.

Will everyone accusing me of a vendetta of some kind please note the fact that it was Princess who said that I was talking rubbish when I was not, and I have simply pointed to a picture which was already in the public domain on this very forum illustrating exactly what I was talking about.
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It was MY picture that I posted on MY thread.

Not yours.
 
LCH611 said:
I am not certain what you are trying to achieve by posting that particular picture? Isn't that exactly as a flash noseband should be fitted? Or are you implying it is being used as an illicit grakle?
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My point is completely the reverse, that this set-up is completely BD legal, not 'illicit' in any way, and it is my advice to the OP that if her horse requires a grackle for dressage then this is the closest she can legally get to achieving it and it will go a long way towards producing the result that she needs.

No, in my opinion that is not how a flash should be fitted. I believe that the cavesson part of a flash noseband should be placed exactly where it would be if there was no flash on the bridle. But then, I don't believe in tying my horses' mouths shut, so what do I know about fitting flash nosebands?

But if you google 'flash nosebands' you will see plenty of pictures of what I mean about the cavesson height and straightness around the nose.
 
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cptrayes said:
My point is completely the reverse, that this set-up is completely BD legal, not 'illicit' in any way, and it is my advice to the OP that if her horse requires a grackle for dressage then this is the closest she can legally get to achieving it and it will go a long way towards producing the result that she needs.

No, in my opinion that is not how a flash should be fitted. I believe that the cavesson part of a flash noseband should be placed exactly where it would be if there was no flash on the bridle. But then, I don't believe in tying my horses' mouths shut, so what do I know about fitting flash nosebands?
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I am not sure you know quite as much about fitting cavesson nosebands as you think you do!
I was always taught that they should be fitted reasonably high (a couple of fingers below the projecting cheekbones) and consequently that is what I do - if I knew how to do so I would post a picture of one of my young horses that illustrates it. Unless you have it fastened up very tightly it is bound to stretch downwards a little (unless you have horrid stiff leather that doesn't yield at all). It is hard to see from the picture you have posted (and frankly if you were trying to illustrate your point you would have done better to find a better one as you have already established there are plenty of google pictures to choose from!) whether the noseband is fitted as heinously as you have claimed, so it is not surprising that people are inclined to think you have chosen that parrticular poster to have a sly pop at them!
 
FWIW, Reg goes in a correctly fitted noseband with a flash and it goes just like Fig's- it droops down, but is still fitted as a flash noseband, not a grackle!

549099_10200973671171098_1700252907_n.jpg

528325_10200937856995766_1890302235_n.jpg


It's certainly not fitted as a grackle, a noseband Reg really disliked and objected to fairly strongly!
 
LCH611 said:
frankly if you were trying to illustrate your point you would have done better to find a better one as you have already established there are plenty of google pictures to choose from! ....... heinously......
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Actually if you read what I have written twice you will see that what I said was that it was easy to find pictures of a flash fitted with a lower and straight cavesson noseband - like this one:

http://www.ogdenequestrian.com/catalog/images/226649.jpg

and this one

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x12/GaBby4TiA/FLASH.jpg


I could not find one fitted high like I was talking about, so I used the one that I already knew about, because I had commented about it on the thread at the time. The photo is in the public domain because the poster wanted comments. OK she didn't want any that actually questionned anything, just compliments, (and the horse is lovely and performs well) but I'm afraid that you can't pick and choose if you make a photo public and ask for comment.



'heinously' ????
I have made no such value judgement about how the noseband is fitted. I have simply made the point to the OP that if she wants to get a grackle effect legally, this is the closest she can get to it. There is NO criticism in that statement. The set-up is BD legal and a very high proportion of people competing in snaffle bridles do it.
 
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cptrayes said:
I could not find one fitted high like I was talking about, so I used the one that I already knew about, because I had commented about it on the thread at the time. The photo is in the public domain because the poster wanted comments. OK she didn't want any that actually questionned anything, just compliments, (and the horse is lovely and performs well) but I'm afraid that you can't pick and choose if you make a photo public and ask for comment.



'heinously' ????
I have made no such value judgement about how the noseband is fitted
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Are you not very good at using Google? There are loads of pictures on there with high set nosebands. Hardly any of them in the first page at least, illustrate the affect that you are talking about, but then neither does the picture you have used - as far as I can tell because it is difficult to see from that picture.

In the context of the other snippy remarks you have made/always make it is hard to accept that you aren't making value judgements - phrases like "ridiculously high" are a bit of a giveaway.
 
LCH611 said:
Are you not very good at using Google? There are loads of pictures on there with high set nosebands. Hardly any of them in the first page at least, illustrate the affect that you are talking about, but then neither does the picture you have used - as far as I can tell because it is difficult to see from that picture.

In the context of the other snippy remarks you have made/always make it is hard to accept that you aren't making value judgements - phrases like "ridiculously high" are a bit of a giveaway.
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Ridiculously high ONLY in the context of use on its own.

If you are determined to read insult into what I write then you will interpret it to find it. It is NOT what I wrote.
 
Cptrayes - why don't you go and do something more constructive, quite clearly no one agrees with you and looking through you're past posts it seems to be quite a theme.
 
Re: photobucket being private - why should I have to? To prevent one fixated bored poster from having their fun?

You know what cptrayes, well done for using my pic without permission and in a negative fashion - you've really shown what kind of person you are. Since your blog is linked to your signature on this very forum, perhaps I'll link videos of you riding onto here? I would of course wait for a thread to pop up where I could do so, providing it has nothing to do with you and you haven't posted on it....?

I wouldn't, as I'm not that kind of person. But again, congratulations in clarifying that you are. See you at Beaver Hall soon :)
 
Well looks like cptrayes that I'm not the only one to find your manner damn right rude and offensive!
I have to wonder if you are so rude and confrontational in real life or whether its a show you put on for here. You seem to pick off individuals to target and attack, honestly, it's not attractive.
As for the correct fitting of a cavesson, it should be approx two fingers from the base of the cheek bone . The cavesson part of a flash should be fitted higher, right under the cheek bones and done up tighter to prevent the flash part affecting the horses breathing. However some horses don't like the high tight feeling so the rider chooses to fit in a different way.
If NM horse is happy in how the noseband fits ( and looking at his results he obviously is) then who are you to argue? I also remember you making critical comments about NM fitting of her bit in her nationals report, again, the horse is performing, he is happy in his tack.
I am starting to think you are ever so slightly suffering from a touch of jealousy of NM and PS, if this is not the case then you do a good job of pretending you are. Get over yourself, you are not the be all and end all of the the horse world( or even a virtual one)

Rant over ( sorry, I had the treatment on another post recently)
 
Blanket - I didn't realise you could change the settings like that, I thought it was just an album setting not for individual pictures. Off to have a furtle, thank you :)
 
Can we please stop this nonsense about me sneaking into Nikkis photobucket account and stealing her picture. I got the photo address from one of the threads that she regularly puts up about Fig's progress, where the photo is in plain view in the post. I could not be bothered to link it the same way she did. I never even looked at her photobucket account. Who needs to, she posts her pictures regularly?

I have NOT criticised the use of the noseband on her horse I have used it as an illustration for the original poster as to how she can get closest to the noseband that her horse prefers.
 
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nikkimariet said:
Re: photobucket being private - why should I have to? To prevent one fixated bored poster from having their fun?

You know what cptrayes, well done for using my pic without permission and in a negative fashion - you've really shown what kind of person you are. Since your blog is linked to your signature on this very forum, perhaps I'll link videos of you riding onto here? I would of course wait for a thread to pop up where I could do so, providing it has nothing to do with you and you haven't posted on it....?

I wouldn't, as I'm not that kind of person. But again, congratulations in clarifying that you are. See you at Beaver Hall soon :)
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Nikki, the whole point of my blog is that I control who writes what on it. If you want a blog situation with your posts, so that no-one can ever comment on what you are doing, then write a blog, don't write on an open forum.

My youtube videos are public. I have no problem with them being viewed but I would ask people to read the blog post that goes with them to understand why I do some of the things that I am doing. There is one in particular which I think you are referring to when I am hard on a spooking horse. The judge in that case told me at the end that she felt it was the only option open to me, given what she saw.

If you would like to critique the novice 34 that we scored 67.5% in last weekend, please leave polite comments on my blog where I will happily discuss it with you.

I will look forward to seeing Fig in person. Have I seen him already, I don't recognise your name from the board?.
 
charlie76 said:
Well looks like cptrayes that I'm not the only one to find your manner damn right rude and offensive!
I have to wonder if you are so rude and confrontational in real life or whether its a show you put on for here. You seem to pick off individuals to target and attack, honestly, it's not attractive.
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Can you remember please that it was Princess who chose to tell me that my post was rubbish. I did not 'pick anyone off'.


The cavesson part of a flash should be fitted higher, right under the cheek bones and done up tighter to prevent the flash part affecting the horses breathing. However some horses don't like the high tight feeling so the rider chooses to fit in a different way.
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When flashes were first introduced this is not the way that they were fitted, they were simply a strap on an ordinary cavesson. They have come to be fitted higher because they offer more control that way. The breathing argument is nonsense. Before flash nosebands we used drops, which are fitted exceptionally low and do not interfere with the breathing when correctly fitted.

If NM horse is happy in how the noseband fits ( and looking at his results he obviously is) then who are you to argue?
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I am not arguing and I never have. I used the photo as a good example to the original poster of what she should do with her horse.

I also remember you making critical comments about NM fitting of her bit in her nationals report.
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I did not make a critical comment, I asked her why his bit was fitted so apparently high when his mouth did not appear to be that long. Can we not ask questions of how and why high performing individuals who put their progress up on this forum use their kit? Like, to learn from??? Nikki is a role model on this forum for people training dressage horses, especially ex racers. Surely she can answer a few straight questions without people like you seeing insult everywhere?


I am starting to think you are ever so slightly suffering from a touch of jealousy of NM and PS, if this is not the case then you do a good job of pretending you are. Get over yourself, you are not the be all and end all of the the horse world( or even a virtual one)
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:D
 
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i did not say your post was "rubbish" because i, unlike you, am not downright rude...........i simply pointed out the flawed nature of your argument, where simple common sense says that a flash cannot be forced to act as a grackle.

if we for one minute though your questions were genuine, and not an attempt to have a pop, we would have no problem answering them, but its clear to us, and to the rest of HHO that the intention behind them is not friendly.

when a person CHOSES to post THEIR OWN pics, i agree, that is open for CC. What is not on is when some other individual choses to re post them in a different context without even asking the owner of the pics permission.

As you have posted the vid on your blog, thus asking for CC, i presume you wont mind me re posting it here as a training exercise so we can all *learn* from it? :)
 
Could someone explain, as they would to a layman;

A. Exactly how a grackle is supposed to work?
B. Why is a Grackle banned in BD.
C. If the answer to B is the degree of severity, then how can 2 widely separated loops be more severe than what is effectively, the one formed by a flash?

In the 20 years that I was a harness maker, I did minor saddlery work, and was never once asked to make a grackle. I must have stitched hundreds of loops, into raised nose bands, and made the flash straps that went with them.

Just as an observation, when I spent time in Germany, and saw a great many ridden horses, I didn't see one without a flash; not one, and that was out of perhaps a couple of thousand!

A further observation; I would have thought that a correctly fitted flash, or rather, one which crosses the jaw-line, at as steep an angle as possible, and fitted to a noseband which is low enough, would have been more effective at preventing any sort of bit evasion.

I'm obviously wrong, which would explain this thread! :confused:

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Could someone explain, as they would to a layman;

A. Exactly how a grackle is supposed to work?
B. Why is a Grackle banned in BD.
C. If the answer to B is the degree of severity, then how can 2 widely separated loops be more severe than what is effectively, the one formed by a flash?

In the 20 years that I was a harness maker, I did minor saddlery work, and was never once asked to make a grackle. I must have stitched hundreds of loops, into raised nose bands, and made the flash straps that went with them.

Just as an observation, when I spent time in Germany, and saw a great many ridden horses, I didn't see one without a flash; not one, and that was out of perhaps a couple of thousand!

A further observation; I would have thought that a correctly fitted flash, or rather, one which crosses the jaw-line, at as steep an angle as possible, and fitted to a noseband which is low enough, would have been more effective at preventing any sort of bit evasion.

I'm obviously wrong, which would explain this thread! :confused:

Alec.
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I tried the set up you described once, out hunting, when my horse was being horrendously strong, cocking his jaw and pissing off with me. So I got off and turned my running martingale into a standing one, and hitched by noseband as high as it would go and then pulled it down with the flash to make a make-shift grackle. T get it to work, I ad to lift the noseband so it was sitting on his cheekbones, and then when I hefted it down it did sit just about right for a grackle.

You have to tighten the noseband very tight and have it about 4" higher than any on the photo shown here to get the same effect, and even then it's a poor imitation...
 
The breathing issue is not nonsense, a low fitting tight flash will push on the soft part of the nostrils and affects the breathing. I use a correctly fitting drop on three of my horses, none of them are low enough to interfere with there breathing. This point was proven in our yard recently when an owner called me over as their horse was 'making a noise ' turned out the drop was fitted too low and too tight, raised and loosened the noseband and the noise was gone.
The flash was simply invented to use with a standing martingale.
As for having more control with the noseband up higher. Why? It's the tightness that alters the control whether low or high.

I'm not saying you cannot questions people and their methods but you don't question, you attack or post in a way that you know will get a reaction. If you disagree then look back at many of your posts and read them how others would, often rude and condescending.
 
cptrayes said:
Just do what half the competitors around seem to be doing at the moment. Buy a big flash noseband and fit it as high as you can get it on his face, but a little loose. Do up the flash and it will pull the cavesson down and make a classic English grackle.

It really bugs me that this is legal when a grackle isn't, it's a complete nonsense and BD may as well make English grackles legal.
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This cptrayes is your first post I have no axe to grind here at all but the tone of your post is rude it may not have been your intention but that's how it reads .
OP wanted advice, not to be used for someone to jump on a soap box ,you give advice and then says it bugs you because it's legal and describe it as complete nonsense it's allowed , what was OP going to feel after reading that ?
Not good ,not that she had recieved helpful advice confused perhaps.
You have given me a great deal of help and advice in the past so sadly I say this was not well done.
 
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