What on earth do you feed a protein-intolerant underweight TB?!

[PercyMum]

One day I WILL have a normal horse...!!!

Choccie biccies for anyone who can help me with this as the feed companies are scratching their heads, I have no idea and the next step is a very expensive veterinary investigation (which obviously I will do if I have to but I'd rather not be even more broke than I already am!!). Anyway, here goes....

Bought my totally gorgeous 16hh TB mare in mid-Feb. She raced until July, then was retired and put out to grass. Overwintered with no hay or feed but lots of grass. When I got her she was looking ribby but she is ok (if that makes sense!!!). She doesnt look like a welfare case but clearly needs a bit of weight. Got her home, put her on good-quality haylage (ad-lib) and a scoop of conditioning chaff twice a day. She started coming up in little lumps that started at her hip and slowly spread across the whole of her body. As the lumps got worse, she got more and more aggravated until she was literally throwing herself on the floor. Called vet out who suggested hay, not haylage (also suggested on here when I asked what might be the problem) and gave aher a course of steroids over 15 days, weaning off gradually. I called A&P who said to put her on Calm and Condition with a scoop of the chaff. All goes well for 12 days, then I ran out of Conditioning Chaff so I popped her onto Hi-Fi for a couple of days until I could get some more. Lumps came back but also coincided with the last day of the steriods. The day after she was back on Conditioning chaff. For the last two days she has been back to being antsy and not very happy.

So.... Problem 1 - She is underweight and I need to feed her up but with minimal protein and 2) What am I giving her that is upsetting her again? Does she need more steroids? What could be causing this? ANy other ideas for what she might be allregic to as I am guessing that the steriods are masing the problem. She really is the nicest, sweetest, most hard-working horse I have ever come across so I know that this behaviour is not normal for her.

Bravo for getting this far and even more for any ideas!!!!!

 

[Angua2]

Sounds like my beastie who has a high protein intolerance, and a garlic intollerance

I have managed to get my beast looking plump just with adlib forage, 2 - 3 small meals of economy cubes, unmollased oat chaff, sugar beet. oil and a good vitamin and mineral suppliment with yeasacc.

The problem may actually lie in a slight alfalfa intolerance, I discovered that pure alfa a goes straight to my girls head and causes the urtucaria that you describe.

Garlic makes her really ichy!

You could change the chop for something like ready grass

 

[PercyMum]

I have managed to get my beast looking plump just with adlib forage, 2 - 3 small meals of economy cubes, unmollased oat chaff, sugar beet. oil and a good vitamin and mineral suppliment with yeasacc.

The problem may actually lie in a slight alfalfa intolerance, I discovered that pure alfa a goes straight to my girls head and causes the urtucaria that you describe.

DOes Conditioning chaff Alfalfa in i? I thought the Alfa in Hi-Fi might have annoyed her but irritatingly the SPillers website doesnt tell me what is in the Conditioning Chaff. I would have thought that if the chaff was ok then the lumps would have gone by now but noooooooo...

Am giving her 300ml Linseed oil a day and also ad-lib hay but cannot get her to eat more than 5-6kg. have never heard of unmolassed oat chaff. What is it?

Thanks!

 

[Angua2]

DOes Conditioning chaff Alfalfa in i? I thought the Alfa in Hi-Fi might have annoyed her but irritatingly the SPillers website doesnt tell me what is in the Conditioning Chaff. I would have thought that if the chaff was ok then the lumps would have gone by now but noooooooo...

Am giving her 300ml Linseed oil a day and also ad-lib hay but cannot get her to eat more than 5-6kg. have never heard of unmolassed oat chaff. What is it?

Thanks!

Spillers conditioning fibre contains

Digestible Energy (MJ/kg) 11.0
Oil 10%
Protein 12%
Fibre 21%
Starch 7%
Vitamin A (iu/kg) 10,000
Vitamin D (iu/kg) 1,000
Vitamin E (iu/kg) 400
Selenium (mg/kg) 0.2
Copper (mg/kg) 25
Zinc (mg/kg) 110

Formulated to help build condition without excitability. Good quality protein to support muscle tone and topline. Soya oil for non heating calories and coat condition. Enriched with a broad spectrum of vitamins and minerals, to provide your horse or pony with more nutrition than any other chopped fibre blend. Can be combined with a mix or cube or fed as a replacement for compound feed. Contains a palatable blend of dried alfafa and straw carefully chosen for consistent nutritional quality.

The unmollased oat straw chop is exactly that.....

http://www.honeychop.com/chopped-oat-straw.html

 

[criso]

I had alot of problems with Urticaria with my Tb (which turned out not be be food related at all).

Vet was convinced that it was protein, said he could tell from the type of rash and pinpointed alfalfa.

Took alfalfa out and no better.

So I went down the route of food exclusion. I know yours is underweight but if she's itchy and stressy then that's not going to help her condition and you may have to do that while you work out what the trigger is.


What I had to do was remove all feed from his diet and just put him on hay and when that didn't work haylage, the hi fibre version for him as he was not in work at the time.


If that works then you have a base line to work from but make sure she is lump free and not on steroids for a while before you move onto the next ingredient.

Then introduce one thing back at a time, the problem with alot of feeds (even the chaffs) is that they have so many ingredients in them that it makes it difficult to identify which so with a cube or mix or chaff you will effectively be introducing several things at once so read the white labels on the side of the bag and and maybe even go down the straights route. Speedibeet might be a good starting point.

If this does work then long term you will have to work on getting as much forage into her as you can and look at high oil items for extra condition. The linseed is good but if you feed micronised instead of oil then you don't need to add it to anything as they can eat it straight. Coolstance Copra is good for condition and is high oil but is also quite high in protein if the issue is protein rather than say alfalfa.

I also found a combination of Global Herbs Restore and Immunoplus relieved the symptons though didn't completely cure but that would help give her immune system some support.

In our case after little success we went up to the vet college for intradermal skin tests. To everyone's surprise the lumps went overnight.

As his feed would be still in his gut the conclusion was it was not feed related but contact. That's why he was slightly better with haylage as there were less seeds and spores in the air. We went ahead with the tests but with over 15 trigger factors we couldn't really treat. Though we tried to minimise contact e.g he reacted to woods of various kinds so he was actually better on straw than shavings.

Ultimately I moved yards and the lumps went and touch wood 2 1/2 years later have not come back.

 

[criso]

Spillers conditioning fibre contains

Digestible Energy (MJ/kg) 11.0
Oil 10%
Protein 12%
Fibre 21%
Starch 7%
Vitamin A (iu/kg) 10,000
Vitamin D (iu/kg) 1,000
Vitamin E (iu/kg) 400
Selenium (mg/kg) 0.2
Copper (mg/kg) 25
Zinc (mg/kg) 110

Formulated to help build condition without excitability. Good quality protein to support muscle tone and topline. Soya oil for non heating calories and coat condition. Enriched with a broad spectrum of vitamins and minerals, to provide your horse or pony with more nutrition than any other chopped fibre blend. Can be combined with a mix or cube or fed as a replacement for compound feed. Contains a palatable blend of dried alfafa and straw carefully chosen for consistent nutritional quality.

The unmollased oat straw chop is exactly that.....

http://www.honeychop.com/chopped-oat-straw.html

That's the nutritional analysis, can't find the ingredient list online you will have to look at the white label on your bag or see if someone here has a list.

Remember alot of the chaffs like hi fi have preservatives and mould inhibitors so she could be allergic to any of these.

The straight oat straw chop is a really good safe option and can carry a supplement or multivit but is fairly low calorie option so won't add much to a underweight horse.

 

[CBFan]

I would say speedibeet is a good place to start. Also Micronised linseed... high fibre cubes, no need for chaff if she is unable to tollerate it...

My friend has a TB who is intollerant to certain grasses and various other plants - dandilion being one of them so she has to be very careful about what she feeds. He's currently on readigrass as a chaff.. may be worth trying?

 

[Angua2]

That's the nutritional analysis, can't find the ingredient list online you will have to look at the white label on your bag or see if someone here has a list.

Remember alot of the chaffs like hi fi have preservatives and mould inhibitors so she could be allergic to any of these.

The straight oat straw chop is a really good safe option and can carry a supplement or multivit but is fairly low calorie option so won't add much to a underweight horse.

erm.... Contains a palatable blend of dried alfafa and straw carefully chosen for consistent nutritional quality.

That tells me that it is basically a simple hifi kind of thing.

No the straight oat straw on its own won't.... never said it would, but there is nothing added to this product it is a nice basic product.

 

[criso]

erm.... Contains a palatable blend of dried alfafa and straw carefully chosen for consistent nutritional quality.
.

Exactly 'contains' but there will be other things in there and if you are trying to do a proper dietary exclusion for a sensitive horse, those other things can confuse matters.

If the op checks the white label on the bag, they will be able to see exactly what is in there.

 

[PercyMum]

Vet just called back and has said that she doesnt think that the Hi-Fi did anything. She has suggested going back onto the steroids for a bit, then keeping her on Cavalesse to keep the reaction at bay. I see where she is coming form but I would rather not keep my horse on something and would rather eliminate the cause of the reaction. I will try Readgrass so I can eliminate Alfalfa as a cause. Poor girly - she really isnt happy

 

[chestnut cob]

My horse is protein-intolerant, as I discovered when he was fed too much alfalfa last year. He now comes up in lumps at even a tiny bit too much protein (my vet told me to expect this.. he said once one thing has upset him, lots of other things will do even if they never have before).

By trial and error I have discovered that I *can't* feed:
Anything (and I mean ANYTHING) containing ANY alfalfa.. I gave him a scoop of Alfa-A recently and the rash came straight back up within a few hours. Used to feed pure alfalfa but obviously can't now.
Haylage, even that gives him lumps so he just gets plain good hay.
Even too much spring grass brings him up in lumps...

He is fine on Speedibeet (I won't feed molassed beet) though is a bit finicky about it. I daren't give him any chaffs containing alfalfa which means everything from Dengie is out - I spent ages at feed merchants recently going through the ingredients of them all and eventually settled on D&H Safe & Sound which doesn't *appear* to contain alfalfa. However, my horse is finicky and doesn't really liike the S&S. He's also gone off Speedibeet so have had to give up with that, and I won't feed competition mixes etc as far too much molasses (and crap) in them. I usually feed D&H High Fibre Nuts which I don't think have alfalfa in and he has never reacted to.

In your situation I would whole linseed meal from someone like Charnwood Milling - great for putting condition on. Maybe also try adding yea-sacc to ensure your horse is able to digest and use her food properly.

 

[PennyJ]

Vet just called back and has said that she doesnt think that the Hi-Fi did anything. She has suggested going back onto the steroids for a bit, then keeping her on Cavalesse to keep the reaction at bay. I see where she is coming form but I would rather not keep my horse on something and would rather eliminate the cause of the reaction. I will try Readgrass so I can eliminate Alfalfa as a cause. Poor girly - she really isnt happy

I don't claim to be any expert, but I am a little confused about why your vet is suggesting Cavalesse? I thought that was for sweet itch? Its active ingredient is vitamin B which you can provide through supplemention at a far lower cost

I think you're doing absolutely the right thing to see if Alfalfa is the cause of her problems. I think there are people who do horse allergy testing, but I wouldn't have a clue where you would start if you chose to go down that route.

 

[chestnut cob]

I think you're doing absolutely the right thing to see if Alfalfa is the cause of her problems. I think there are people who do horse allergy testing, but I wouldn't have a clue where you would start if you chose to go down that route.

My vet and I did discuss allergy testing for my horse but he said unless I wanted to spend a fortune, the best thing to do was cut out absolutely everything bar hay and gradually add things to his diet. He said add something, wait 2 weeks to see what happens, then add something else etc...

 

[StormyGale]

I rehome and retrain lots of TB's who have this problem some as someone above said can be ok and it can be something other than the food however a loto f mine have been very sensitive to protein so i usually feed these mollichaff, sugar beet and a few conditioning nuts if they really can't take the conditioning nuts try just the other two three times or four times a day until hes putting on weight, and obviously ad lib hay, or grass preferably. I would try one of the horselyx licks again if he is ok with it you will need to check the protein as these have worked wonders with mine. i hope your boy gets better.

 

[criso]

My vet and I did discuss allergy testing for my horse but he said unless I wanted to spend a fortune, the best thing to do was cut out absolutely everything bar hay and gradually add things to his diet. He said add something, wait 2 weeks to see what happens, then add something else etc...

I did because I was covered by insurance and it was interesting but alot of the things were unavoidable and they can't desensitise for that number of things.

But moving him to take him to the hospital to be tested did at least tell us once and for all it wasn't food with him.

 

[PercyMum]

I don't claim to be any expert, but I am a little confused about why your vet is suggesting Cavalesse? I thought that was for sweet itch? Its active ingredient is vitamin B which you can provide through supplemention at a far lower cost

I think you're doing absolutely the right thing to see if Alfalfa is the cause of her problems. I think there are people who do horse allergy testing, but I wouldn't have a clue where you would start if you chose to go down that route.

My vet and I did discuss allergy testing for my horse but he said unless I wanted to spend a fortune, the best thing to do was cut out absolutely everything bar hay and gradually add things to his diet. He said add something, wait 2 weeks to see what happens, then add something else etc...

The vet has prescribed Cavelesse as it supresses the allegic reaction to anything, not just sweet itch mozzies. I have never heard of it before so I guess its worth a try? Going to take her off the chaff and try readigrass to see if it is an Alfalfa reaction. Thought I could also try phoning her trainer as surely they would have had to deal with this issue when she was racing? Or is that a daft idea ???