What the hell is wrong with this horse??

BigYellowHorse said:
Wholeheartedly agree but not everyone can afford to provide it.

Insurance/putting a certain amount away each month or week should be factored into basic care and I think you should question whether you can afford to actually keep a horse if you can't.

I would never advocate fraud but on this occasion with no diagnosis and the poster actually saying it being a possible hiccup in training I think taking out insurance would be a very good step to take.
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Insuring this horse and then claiming, without declaring its behavioural issues, would be fraud whether or not the Insurer asks.
 
Nothing has been mentioned about possible psychological issues. The OP mentions a possible wasp sting. Animals can become quite paranoid as a result of a sequence of apparently unrelated incidents. Maybe the horse already got a jab or stab (from a piece of fencing wire perhaps?) where the sting, if that was what it was, occurred and has now convinced itself that bucking/acting up is the escape behaviour necessary to rid itself of that annoyance? If you like, cause and effect.

This may sound a bit far fetched but over a lifetime of training other species I have seen this sort of thing a few times. It takes a bit of effort and time to train the animal out of the neurosis, if you see what I mean. The animal needs to be convinced that there are other ways to deal with the problem. Does that make sense to anyone? Sometimes I think far too much emphasis is put on the physical side and not much on the psychological and vets don't learn much about the last at college.
 
cptrayes said:
Insuring this horse and then claiming, without declaring its behavioural issues, would be fraud whether or not the Insurer asks.
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So if I was breaking a horse or handling an obstinate youngster but then took insurance out it would be fraud because we were having some behaviour difficulties that occasionally come with the territory but would hopefully be worked out. Or I committed fraud when I insured my tb who I know has weaved and chewed but wasnt asked as it was just included in with the rest of the insurances on the farm and it didnt even cross my mind as he doesn't do it since ive had him.


Perhaps im back pedling here... but I will also point out I never told the poster not to declare anything regarding behaviour or anything that could be seen as fraudulent seeing as she has had no diagnosis and any treatment the horse has had did not show any reg flags (although from the history we have been told we can clearly see some!)
 
Dry Rot said:
Nothing has been mentioned about possible psychological issues. The OP mentions a possible wasp sting. Animals can become quite paranoid as a result of a sequence of apparently unrelated incidents. Maybe the horse already got a jab or stab (from a piece of fencing wire perhaps?) where the sting, if that was what it was, occurred and has now convinced itself that bucking/acting up is the escape behaviour necessary to rid itself of that annoyance? If you like, cause and effect.

This may sound a bit far fetched but over a lifetime of training other species I have seen this sort of thing a few times. It takes a bit of effort and time to train the animal out of the neurosis, if you see what I mean. The animal needs to be convinced that there are other ways to deal with the problem. Does that make sense to anyone? Sometimes I think far too much emphasis is put on the physical side and not much on the psychological and vets don't learn much about the last at college.
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It could be used to explain the latter stages however doesn't answer the paragraphs before and tension tthrough the hind quarters and resistance to the saddle.

If we are thinking psychologically you could also look at the fact the horse is apparently very quiet - sometimes if a horse is in pain it will revert inside itself drawing attention away from the fact that it is in pain and weaker (member of the herd)

Or... it could just be a lovely, placid horse.
 
BigYellowHorse said:
So if I was breaking a horse or handling an obstinate youngster but then took insurance out it would be fraud because we were having some behaviour difficulties that occasionally come with the territory but would hopefully be worked out. Or I committed fraud when I insured my tb who I know has weaved and chewed but wasnt asked as it was just included in with the rest of the insurances on the farm and it didnt even cross my mind as he doesn't do it since ive had him.


Perhaps im back pedling here... but I will also point out I never told the poster not to declare anything regarding behaviour or anything that could be seen as fraudviulent seeing as she has had no diagnosis and any treatment the horse has had did not show any reg flags (although from the history we have been told we can clearly see some!)
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Your suggestion is perfectly clear. You have advised someone to take out insurance because they anticipate claiming for investigations that they already know that they need. That is fraud.
 
Tbf, the insurance company will almost certainly accept the policy. What they may not do, if a pre-existing condition is discovered, is pay out. I've seen this happen a couple of times now when the owner has not been honest about ongoing concerns. Equine insurance is not socialised medicine for ponies, it's a profit making venture and the insurance companies are within their rights to demand that people do not insure under false pretences with the expectation they will collect for an already damaged horse. In a case like this it would be hard to prove but that doesn't mean they won't try.
 
I don't think the behavioural/psychological/learned aspects should be overlooked at all. In fact, my experience is most undesirable situations have multiple factors in play that require addressing. In this case though the horse has distinct physical symptoms. The fact that a physio hasn't found anything actually makes me more nervous as if it was something simple, like a pulled muscle, it would presumably have been found. Also physio can improve things sven if it doesn't address the underlying issue because it helps the whole horse. It's not a very effective diagnostic in osbertin!

As to what might be wrong, none of us can guess. I've seen horses behave similarly with everything from spinal problems to saddle issues to sore feet to ulcers.
 
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TarrSteps said:
I don't think the behavioural/psychological/learned aspects should be overlooked at all. In fact, my experience is most undesirable situations have multiple factors in play that require addressing. In this case though the horse has distinct physical symptoms. The fact that a physio hasn't found anything actually makes me more nervous as if it was something simple, like a pulled muscle, it would presumably have been found. Also physio can improve things sven if it doesn't address the underlying issue because it helps the whole horse. It's not a very effective diagnostic in osbertin!

As to what might be wrong, none of us can guess. I've seen horses behave similarly with everything from spinal problems to saddle issues to sore feet to ulcers.
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I had a physio to my mare because of comments made in dressage tests. She couldn't find anything wrong. I still wasn't happy so went for xrays, and found the mare had bone spurs on the front of both hocks. She was still competing successfully, just not scoring the dressage marks that I'd hoped. Re the poster's horse. I agree with the comments as to why it wasn't broken at six. I had a 3 yr old showing colic signs, lying down and groaning. My vet thought it was stifles, I took the horse to Ronnie Longford, who found a trapped nerve on the top of the quarters. Certainly would be looking at the back, don't think its ulcers.
 
cptrayes said:
Your suggestion is perfectly clear. You have advised someone to take out insurance because they anticipate claiming for investigations that they already know that they need. That is fraud.
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agree the 'off the record chat with the vet' was a big clue.

vets will be struck off if they play any part in this and conviction for insurance fraud can carry a prison sentence-is it really worth the risk.

Also the damage to someones reputation, fraud is dishonesty at best and lying at worst, and the line between the two is very very thin.
 
As well as back/spine mentioned I would look into his stomach and gut overall. Gastric ulcers and hind gut acidosis/disruption. Diet and management are key for these.
 
Just to say re "back man" not diagnosing anything; they legally can't. The only person who can make a diagnosis is a vet. So even if a "back man" found something glaringly obvious all that they can do is tell you that they have a concern about X, Y or Z and tell you to speak to your vet.

No "back man" can work on a horse without veterinary permission so I'd assume (I know, I know) that a conversation has been had by all owners with their vets when seeking their approval. The "back man" may contact the vet themselves and discuss their findings or sending in a report but no one has any power to make the owner get an appointment to have the horse seen by a vet to get any diagnosis.

Time and time again "back men" (that are trained, qualified & registered) benefit horses in work. The apparent misconception that it is some form of black magic or trickery to rob poor innocent horse owners shows a complete lack of understanding. Sometimes they are called in when a vet would be better placed but if the vet has given approval (and owner signs to confirm) and the horse is fit to be worked on i.e. no undiagnosed lameness, hasn't tied up etc then it can improve the situation.

Although warning signs are going off it could be nothing. The majority of horses don't have straight tails when ridden (I'm talking RC and lower levels), although they should, and those that do can be improved with therapy. He's a big horse and you could assume a slow maturer who's had tack and work in a relatively short space of time without a pre-work MOT so any underlying issues could have been aggravated further by tack/work.

RE insurance. It's a bit of a grey area as really all you have is a horse that bucks and holds it's tail funnily; I see much worse regularly and they are insured, out competing etc. However in your mind, and that of others, is that this horse does have underlying issues. If the horse wasn't bucking or holding it's tail you wouldn't take out insurance or you would have had it insured from the start. The horse is bucking and vet bills look likely so insurance looks tempting... At the end of the day you're an unnamed entity on a forum so who is going to know whether you do or don't. If you do then you pay your money and you take your chances when submitting a claim.

Just as an aside it would be rude not to mention the HHO mantra - have you had teeth done and saddle checked?

First step, regardless of if you pursue insurance or not, would be a chat with your vet to discuss.

Good luck whatever you decide and I hope it's a happy ending for you both.
 
As a slightly different view - I would look at the cost effectiveness of it all. If you paid under £1k for the horse then I would be inclined to PTS and just cut my losses. At the end of the day the horse is worthless. There is no guarrantee it will ever be anything productive and may just be a field ornament.
I guess it depends how much money you want to waste on it and I say this as someone who is currently eventing a horse that was backed at 7 years old. But we had a clear plan for this horse and it had one chance to come through being broken in and ridden away or would have been PTS as no point keeping a 17hh unbroken 7yo.
 
Ok, just to clarify a couple of things:
1) i am not going to commit insurance fraud of any kind. Quite apart from the obvious legal implications I would be shelling out at least £400 on a premium plus an excess of around £150 so I would be over £500 down before even starting which is a hell of a lot of vets fees and no guarantee of a payout!
2) my vet has happily given me permission to use a reputable "back man" as I see fit unless, of course, the horse in question is currently undergoing veterinary treatment.

I have spoken to my vet today and she is of the mind to x ray and infrared heat scan / ultrasound the areas to see what is going on. Her colleague would go for infrared followed by regular osteopathy for 6 months or so....

Other options at this time are 6 weeks - 6 months in a field, referral to someone like Donna Blinman or PTS. My feeling is that time off will not solve the issue especially given his history and apparent low mileage. I do not want to give up on him and PTS but I have to be realistic in that with a limited budget and a possibly limited future for the horse it may be his best option long term. Tarrsteps made a very good point that it may be a challenge for me but it may be hell for him (oh b*gger, leaky eyes now).

I will probably follow my vets advice but i need to set a budget and stop at that point (easier said than done) and not get carried away with trying just one more thing...
 
This post sounds exactly like what I have just been through with my horse. I bred and backed this horse myself, he is now 6 years old. In the 4 years he has been ridden, he has had 4 bucking 'explosions', where he didn't stop until you were off! Each time was within the first 2 minutes of just being mounted and was usually after a long period of rest (months of rest). However, he would then go for months without an issue and would seemingly work well.

We had regular physio checks with no issues. The only suspect sign that I could see physically, was him holding his tail slightly to one side.

Two months ago (again after a long period of rest due to a ligament injury) on my third day of riding him, he had his latest bucking explosion. This was the final straw and ended with me driving him to the vets and insisting on a bone scan. The bone scan showed very slight abnormalities to the spine (very mild KS), directly under where his saddle would sit. The abnormalities were so slight they would not have been noticed if it weren't for the bone scan picking them up first.

As a result of this he was given a steroid injection into his spine which didn't work and made him very sensitive to being tacked up, which he had never been prior to this. After a few weeks the sensitivity subsided and he returned to normal. At this point we had his saddle checked and changed. My saddler suggested a saddle fitted with Flair may be an option, so this is what we did. My horse is now at a pro's yard, being very happily ridden in his new Flair saddle. I am hoping this is not a fluke and that we really have got to the bottom of this horses problems. What makes me slightly optimistic, is that the horses way of going has vastly improved. Although he never looked lame/short/tense previously, he now looks like a different horse and rides like one too. He tracks up straight away and is much more loose and swinging through his back and his stride length has increased. My horse went to this pro's yard with a hazard warning label and has not put a foot out of place thankfully! I have been and ridden him a few times myself and he has been perfect. I can't wait to bring him back home!

From my experience I would say, if you go down the insurance route, then go for the bone scan and don't just stop at x-rays if nothing is obvious. Think about your saddle, does it fit perfectly. You may also want to have a think about a saddle with Flair. My horse is also ridden with a polypad underneath his saddle just for additional comfort.

I am so pleased I took action and didn't just bury my head in the sand, waiting for the next bucking fit to occur. Both me and my horse are now much happier and safer! Hopefully with his new saddle and regular work we will continue to stay this way.
 
One other factor to throw into the mix - magnesium deficiency? Like MozartK's horse, mine was home bred and unlike the others I had bred, this one was just a nightmare to back. He spooked and scared himself at all sorts of things, and while he was running on adrenaline he wasn't learning. I know I do offer it as a solution in lots of cases, but magnesium transformed my horse and it is cheap enough to rule it out by supplementing with about £5 worth of MagOx for a couple of weeks.
 
Chocka said:
Ok, just to clarify a couple of things:
1) i am not going to commit insurance fraud of any kind. Quite apart from the obvious legal implications I would be shelling out at least £400 on a premium plus an excess of around £150 so I would be over £500 down before even starting which is a hell of a lot of vets fees and no guarantee of a payout!
2) my vet has happily given me permission to use a reputable "back man" as I see fit unless, of course, the horse in question is currently undergoing veterinary treatment.

I have spoken to my vet today and she is of the mind to x ray and infrared heat scan / ultrasound the areas to see what is going on. Her colleague would go for infrared followed by regular osteopathy for 6 months or so....

Other options at this time are 6 weeks - 6 months in a field, referral to someone like Donna Blinman or PTS. My feeling is that time off will not solve the issue especially given his history and apparent low mileage. I do not want to give up on him and PTS but I have to be realistic in that with a limited budget and a possibly limited future for the horse it may be his best option long term. Tarrsteps made a very good point that it may be a challenge for me but it may be hell for him (oh b*gger, leaky eyes now).

I will probably follow my vets advice but i need to set a budget and stop at that point (easier said than done) and not get carried away with trying just one more thing...
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That plan sounds sensible for you & fair on the horse.
Good luck and I hope it works out
 
MK's post also brings up a couple things that are almost always an ongoing issue for a horse like this, going forward, whether an actual problem is found or not - most notably work and management.

I know all sorts of horses that have 'problems' but they can be useful members of society if they are managed in a specific way get what they need. A couple of the ones I know with 'bad backs' have struggled this week - big change in the weather, less light means less riding, lessening grass quality means a change in diet and condition . . . None of these things necessarily directly affect their weakness but that's the first thing to go. So the routine has to be tweaked for the changing situation. Big pro yards are sometimes better situations for fragile horses because they have the staff, facilities, time etc to keep the horse on a very detailed program - even if they don't know that is what they are doing!

Work is also a component. Often treatment is what allows the horse to work in such a way as to address the problem and the ongoing work helps the horse maintain fitness and strength. Sometimes having another, stronger rider do this is necessary. Even someone without history with the horse may make out better initially.

This is also a consideration when taking on a 'hopeless cause' - can you manage the horse the way it needs? Can you afford it? What if you have to sell? What if the horse cannot meet your demands?

There is also a big difference between a horse that develops problems after a normal start and one that starts with problems. If the horse's initial impressions of work are negative they are often much harder to convince!
 
I would do some internet stalking - it is amazing what you can find out, google everything you have on him and his last owner, from passport numbers to her FB account. You might get a bit more history about what has been going on.
 
dieseldog said:
I would do some internet stalking - it is amazing what you can find out, google everything you have on him and his last owner, from passport numbers to her FB account. You might get a bit more history about what has been going on.
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There is a lot to be said for this. A client of mine got a beautiful TB from Ireland, by a very well known NH sire. Almost identical story . . .6 years old, unbacked. . .with a reasonably believable back story about an ageing owner who had a field full of horses he couldn't really afford, sold to someone who planned to bring them to the UK, start them and sell them on. Did I say the horse was beautiful? Except that when it all turned out to be much trickier than originally planned we did some looking into it and there was the horse, age 4, on a small trainer's website with a glowing blurb about how he'd just started galloping, showing real promise blah blah blah. Hmmm.

Another TB (easiest to check) turned out to have a soundness problem but when you looked at his record it was pretty plain it was ongoing as he had HUGE gaps in his racing.

Even pre internet, it was surprising how often people would come out of the woodwork. Usually the horse was particularly good looking/talented and so people remembered. In North America horses were often shipped long distances for a "fresh start" in a new area and even then, sometimes it was possible to track if not the actual history, enough to make you go hmm.

You probably wouldn't get any concrete answers unless you got very lucky and found the person in the chain willing to talk, but worth a go to see if this is, in fact, a horse with "history". (Which is why I'm always amazed by what some people put on here about their horses. Fine if you never plan to sell or loan but can make for some comedy moments otherwise!)
 
My mare showed these types of signs - leaning back,exploding under saddle with no rider,couldnt track up - she had kissing spines and also damage to the suprasinious ligament - vet suggested that it was the ligament that was causing the symptoms more than the kissing spins as they were showing as being minimally active on the bone scan she had - hope you find a solution
 
Toomanyhorses26 - that is very interesting. Can I ask what treatment you gave and if it worked?!! Or did you PTS?

I do have the breeders details in his passport so it might be worth getting in touch with them to see what I can find out...
 
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