What to do now? Stressed & upset

[Nari]

I'm just so disappointed after today's hack. I thought we were starting to get somewhere with his hacking, I'd even been thinking of trying some longer rides & maybe getting him working on grass again. Not now, now I'm back to wondering why the hell I bother hacking him at all.

Some of you may have seen posts about Jim before but for anyone who hasn't he's a 9yo 16.2 ID, very powerful even for an ID & can be sharp. I've had him since a 2yo so I know his history. He's not a nasty horse, is reasonably well schooled & a generally nice person although he can walk all over people if he doesn't think they're worth listening to.

Still, enough rattle. What on earth do you do with a horse that just loses it? He managed to hold it together for a while but ultimately he lost it & he has no regard for his own safety at that point.

A friend & I went for a short hack round the village today. He felt sharp leaving the yard but I didn't take a lot of notice beyond making sure I paid attention & rode him properly (that sounds like I don't normally but I'm sure you know what I mean). With hindsight I should have turned round then & gone in the school. Without going into every incident he was spooky & sharp the whole time - very sharp, I'm used to him & I'm not a bad rider but I was working hard to keep him in hand & I was just wanting to get back without an incident. Then when we were nearly home a lorry carrying gas cylinders came up behind us & spooked him, just where there was other traffic & people. My friend kept back & tried stopping the driver but he kept inching forwad & all the cylinders kept clanging against each other. Even then we just about kept it together though I completely lost the contact & despite sending him forward constantly he felt (& I'm told looked) like he was going to go up. Managed to turn him up the lane to home & he started getting strong but in a way that's good as at least he was taking a contact & listening, it may not be polite but I know how to deal with that & he can be held. Then something spooked him & he lost it - legged it up the single track uphill lane with no brakes or steering or awareness of me. I'm sat there praying nothing comes the other way, calling "aaaand waaaalk" & trying to flex left & right to find his mouth & get through to him (initial attempt to stop with aids failed & I know the steering is a better way to go with him). I finally managed to steer him into a gap - hitting the chain fence & hedge/trees in the process - & he came back to my voice. I then did something I've never done before, I got off to hold him then when my friend caught up I led him home. I really wasn't sure he wouldn't go again in which case he wouldn't stop until he was home - or past - & I couldn't see any benefit in us both getting hurt. He led home, just, & I got back on & took him in the school for 5 min with my YO standing on the ground just in case.

Typing this it doesn't really sound so desperate but you kind of had to be there. Thank God my friend was on a good horse who she could keep back as we disappeared!

How on earth do you train this "blanking out" out of a horse? Can you? Once he comes to he's quite prepared to stop but until then it's as if he's unaware of the rider, which also poses the problem that any really drastic action by the rider just triggers a panic bucking session to get rid of whaever is on his back. When he isn't like this, which is most of the time, he's a cracking horse.

All physical things have been checked, rechecked & checked yet again. He's in regular work, gets no cereals, schools nicely & is good to handle. I don't knock him around but he's expected to mind his manners, be polite & do as asked when he's ridden & this has always been the case. I'm not a novice or nervous rider & have owned horses for 26 years, riding quite a few ones that had problems & needed sorting out.

His schooling goes out the window in these situations so that's not the answer.
Putting a stronger rider up just gives him something to fight against even when he isn't like this - in the winter he was a 4yo he was being ridden in the week by a good professional but he eventually refused to ride him saying he was unsafe, plus I feel it's my familiar voice that eventually gets through so taking that away would be a mistake.
Tack changes are pointless as it seems as if he can't "hear" aids when he goes like this & the rest of the time his tack is sufficient.

My friend, whose known us for 6 years, & my RI of 4 years are also at a loss. The view of them both when I spoke to them seperately tonight is that it's just something in him & if he feels hyped-up & in a "Jimmy" when I get on then either get back off or take him in the school, particularly as by the next day he'll be totally back to his nomally willing self.

If anyone has made it this far they deserve a medal! Ideas would be welcome but please don't take it personally if I say I've tried it & it didn't work or that knowing Jim it just isn't a safe option.

By the way there's no way this horse is going anywhere, he has a home for life.

 

[gemmaw]

I'd send him away to a completely different environment for a few weeks to try to change the habit he has gotten into. Barring a horse having a real scare at something there really should be no option for this happening, maybe its a bit of both and because of his size he knows that he can get away with it. A fresh approach may help to change it. I know of a place that takes horses to school that is in the wels hills, has a completely secluded track for hacking and the most fabulous people. Maybe something like that would help, the man has over 40 yrs of experience and breaks and schoold for high level eventers and trainers, it may be worth a shot!

 

[henryhorn]

I wish I could give you the answer but I can't. He sounds horribly similar to Monty who I described as his body being there but his head in another place at times.
We did find a solution which we never used in competition because morally I felt it was wrong, but the smallest dose of sedalin for a few days made him a totally different horse to ride.
He was then hackable/schoolable etc with no trouble at all, the effects lasted around four days then we would gradually stop by cutting down the dose, that would work for another few days until something set him off again..
We decided it wasn't fair to ever expect him to be calm enough to do all three phases eventing (you could do any one without him going potty but no more) and sold him.
The new owner got in touch to say how dificult he had been but she was prepared to persevere, that was six months ago; a couple of weeks ago she rang to say she had him up for sale, she couldn't settle his brain either.
I would try the sedalin on your horse, just for three days on the lowest dose, and see if it makes a difference.
I honestly don't feel schooling or anything else will work because when they get in that frame of mind, it's like they're in another world.. I hope his bloodline isn't Knock Boy is it?

 

[Nosey]

Firstly you should be very proud of yourself for being such a caring and brave owner!!

As an owner of something who also has very lairy days I know a little bit of what you are going through! It wasn't a case of not wanting to sell mine - I wouldn't have been able to!!

My mares behaviour stemmed, I am convinvced now, from a lack of confidence and she is now 200% better some 4 years (and a lot of grief) later. But it took me some time to work out the cause and the solution...and we still don't get it right all the time! I used to keep a diary of her behaviour to see if I cld see any patterns. Where this helped was I noticed she was actually getting better but I couldn't always see it without looking at my notes cos I was so bogged down with it and at times I got quite down and felt we were both useless!

Don't know off hand if it has anything specific in it that relates to your situation, but the Fearless Horse book is a good read and may offer something you haven't already considered?!

Can't really think of anything else to say other than keep at it and I hope one day you turn a big corner!

 

[hannah87]

i would personally go down the pain route first and get him thoroughly checked over by a vet and chiropracter. he could be suffereing from a huge range of things and when he feels the pain, bolts (and it sounds to me like he is bolting if he makes no response to u at all nor his surrondings). get a vet out...

 

[kizzywiz]

I can sympathise as my mare who I love to bits has these "moments" when she just loses it, its really horrible, scary & awful, but when she's lovely she's just fab. For years I struggled on, had help & all that but no one else got this horrible vibe, because I'm the only one who really rides her. People told me to hit her, sell her all that s**t. Anyway to cut a long story short, I've got her on a magnesium based calmer, found a new sj trainer who's done wonders for both our confidences & had a couple of sessions with Jo Cooper, she does TFT & you can use it on yourself & THE HORSE!! I've had the best few months in 7 YEARS with Kizzy, may not be right for you, but I hope in the very least that it cheers you up to realise that you aren't alone, & if it worked out for us, there must be hope for you too. We still have our bad moments, but currently the good is definately out weighing the bad. Good luck. XX

 

[viola]

The only thing that comes to my mind is some sort of training alike police horses go through; and in a controlled environment first.
If it was me I would just stop hacking but then I have had a few bad accidents with similar horses and I know what you mean when you say the schooling just goes through the window when they panic...

 

[horseygirl123456]

Ive owned my horse for 23 years from a three year old and although fairly succesful as a show jumper if something upset he would completely loose it and panic etc He wa always fairly spooky but not as bad as your horse sounds. The only thing i can say is the most settled he ever was when i worked him fairly hard 6 days a week i think he liked the routine and that helped to settle him. Good luck! I always use dto think he'd get better with age but he still has his moments! and at 26 i think ive given up!

 

[Daisychain]

To be honest you put a lot of time and money into this horse, you are supposed to be enjoying it, if i was you i would sell him and get yourself something you can enjoy! sometimes horses like this are not worth bothering with, i am sure loads of people will disagree, but i personally dont think you will get the upper hand over him... i have seen this scenario time and time again, but well done for perservering.

 

[Flame_]

I feel terribly sorry for you. i also understand the gutting feeling of despair that goes with having a confirmed panicking bolter. As she's only young and i've had her less than 12 months i'm hopeful that with time her confidence in me will grow and her behaviour will improve. In the mean time the plan of action to avoid hospital trips is to choose carefully the situations i put her in. I know my horse's controls don't work when she's frightened so the situations that scare her - busy roads for example, will just have to be a no go until, if ever, she trusts me enough not to put her in danger. If it's mainly strange traffic that panics your horse have you considered just boxing him up and only doing off road farm rides? Or if he's only inclined to lose it when he's fresh, work him hard in the school before you go out. As your horse is older and should really have grown up by now he's probably not going to change. For your own safety you perhaps should stay in arenas and competitions where you can keep your horse working forward in front of your leg and listening to you. In many ways hacking can be 1 of the most hazardous things we do with our horses and you may find you and your horse are happiest not bothering. sorry if my suggestions are obvious. When i asked around for help with my youngster all i got for weeks were "you can't cure a bolter" and "get rid before it kills you" and i know too well that they don't help at all. Good luck!

 

[zigzag]

TBH when a horse panics like that nothing is going to stop him...

 

[Nari]

Bladeyboy sending him away is not an option, he's been moved around too much in the last couple of years & it's unsettled him, made matters worse & given him a few bad colics that the vet thinks are stress related. In his eyes he isn't getting away with anything, he isn't thinking that much!

Henryhorn I wondered if you'd see this, I remember you saying about Monty before & wondered if you'd have any ideas. I'll certainly look into the Sedalin option if he isn't ok tomorrow though it's unusual for it to be more than a one off with him. No he doesn't have any Knockboy in his breeding (though I'll double check tomorrow as I wouldn't swear to what's a couple of generations back), he's by Western Sun out of an Embla George mare & she was out of a Coleman mare.

Nosey I'll try the diary idea, I could be missing something obvious!

Bramble87 I'm absolutely certain it isn't a pain issue. Everything has been checked several times by different people. Also if it was pain I'd expect to see it more when he was schooling rather than going for a steady hack.

Kizzywiz magnesium doesn't seem to help him unfortunately. My poor long-suffering RI is a great help, she helps me keep things in perspective with him & stops me blaming myself for this while focusing on what we do well.

Sapphire_girl there are times when not hacking looks like a reasonable option. It's so frustrating though because he had been getting better & on Sunday had acted like a saint when I'd expected problems.

Horseygirl123456 he is better the more work he gets, also I normally ride in the mornings but today I rode mid/late afternoon which would have disturbed his routine. Not clever of me ... Please don't tell me they don't get better with age!

Daisychain there's so much about this horse that I love & enjoy, I could bore you for hours! I do have another youngster that I'll break in the spring & he's a real easy poppet but for some reason I just don't feel the same way about him, I couldn't just sit for hours watching him in the field & feel that every minute was well spent

. Maybe I'm a fool where Jim's concerned but the reason he's got a home for life is I couldn't bear to be without him even if I never rode him again.

 

[Nari]

KVS he has days when he's just a bit strange & too sharp, this seems to be is trigger rather than any particular thing. I think that if he has a particular look or feel about him then from now on he goes in the school. You're right, I don't think they do change but if your mare has a particlar trigger hopefully you can overcome her fear. Good luck!

Zigzag I'd kinda worked that out!

 

[zigzag]

lol what i meant is you won't ever stop him from doing it

 

[aran]

It's really interesting reading this. I got aran as he used to run - no real trigger. he was in a totally different universe. i used to get him back by patting him and saying his name over and over - he would 'come' back to earth and just stop dead almost in shock. The episodes got less frequent - however - when they did happen they were more violent and he would rodeo too - he got me off a couple of times nastily - however when i was on the floor he was really upset and occasionally would colic. he's grown out of it - or seems to have done. i am his universe though - i wouldnt trust him with anyone else and i certainly wouldnt sell him just in case he hurts someone.
I did loads of ground work and i'm forever talking to him - my voice is everything - i don't need to raise my voice - he knows my tone. If i think he may trigger i have learned how to distract him and prevent him from 'mentally' leaving me.
I don't know what will work for your boy - I didnt know what would work with aran - its just happened. good luck though - i know how you feel.

 

[Nari]

Aran that actually sounds very familiar. It seems to be my voce that gets through first & only then can he listen to my aids. He was a lot spookier when he was younger but his reactions were no where near as drastic. When he stops he's stressed & anxious but it's as if he knows he was wrong & is upset about it. I was terrified he'd colic tonight, he sometimes does when he's too stressed, & didn't go home until he settled to eat & drink properly & looked calm in his face.

There is no way I'd let anyone else hack him, I think that without a familiar voice he'd keep running & I know to my cost that getting strong scares him even more & then he starts bucking too.

I think it really will be a case of accepting that there are days when he shouldn't hack. It's not the end of the world.

ETA I've just had a look at your webpage & although Jim is a lot chunkier than Aran they have a similar look about them somehow. Aran's certainly a stunning boy!

 

[pottamus]

It sounds like you have not done much hacking with him? And he sounds just like he got the wind up him after that lorry with the cylinders and was on his toes ready for anything else. To me it just sounds like you are going to have to grit your teeth, relax and keep going out so that he experiences all these things, learns to relax and trusts in his rider when you say things will be okay. What he did was not that terrible really...it was flight instinct kicking in and if the trust or confidence in his rider is not there...flight will always prevale...no offence by the way!
My horse was exactly the same when I got him and to top it all I had to ride on my own on 100% roads. It was a nightmare situation for re-traininig a horse! Mine would see something he did not like and not only spook and spin and try to run away but he would then have his knickers in a complete twist for a while after...his head would just 'go' and there would be no reasoning with him until he had calmed down again. These were very scary moments and a few times I bottled it and got off for a bit! I tried battling him and he got worse so I learn't to sit quiet and still, kepp him 'contained' and concentrate on my breathing or singing until his paddy was over. It took many many months for him to get over this any time he saw something dodgy but eventually the penny dropped and he listened to me when I was telling him it was okay to go forwards and whilst he is still like any other horse and will spook at things...that is all he now does but I can turn him back and get him past things easily when asked. There is a way through this for you but it will take time, patience and a few nerves of steel!

 

[maestro]

Please please please dont put yourself in danger. Some horses Im sure get agrophobic and when panic sets in they are dangerous. I think Henryhorn suggestion is best, we have given sharp horses ACP tablets or Sedilin in small doses to get them hacking but if in doubt dont, play with him on the ground in the school find another way to enjoy him and dont worry about hacking him. Good Luck.

 

[kombikids]

i am far from an expert on this but someone i know had a horse who did this and they sent him to richard maxwell for reschooling and with a lot of constant support it helped them... good luck tho and i hope it improves for you.

 

[Shilasdair]

I wouldn't hack him anywhere there's traffic...it's not safe.
Some horses run as an evasion...to get their riders to stop asking them to work, so the horse is effectively setting the agenda. I suggest if he runs away on the lunge or in the school, rather than calming him down...keep him going...and going...and going...until he's really had enough...then he'll think twice about running as an evasion from work (try not to kill him though!)
If it is panic, and not an evasion...there isn't much you can do without putting yourself in danger.
Sell him to a Parelli practitioner...they may never ride him...but they can play games all day

S

 

[Nari]

[ QUOTE ]

Sell him to a Parelli practitioner...they may never ride him...but they can play games all day

S

[/ QUOTE ]

That's mean, but it's the first thing that's brought a smile to my face over the whole wretched affair. Thank you!


It really isn't an evasion or disobedience & it is purely a hacking problem. If he hadn't been so brilliant last weekend & generally good with his limited hacking lately then I'd just say no more hacking but now I just don't know. Certainly for now I'm going to be much more careful in reading his mood on the ground & working him accordingly, this could have been avoided if I'd gone with my instinct rather than doing what I thought was ok.

 

[bexandspooky]

I havent read every reply to this so someone may have suggested this already - but have you tried making a note of the occasions that he is 'different' and at the same time make a note of the weather, whether he was in the stable or field before you rode him, if you were later then normal etc etc

I find with spooks that he really plays up if he has been left in alone or if i am a little bit later then normal in the morning before i ride - if he gets on one of his moods he is a right git when out (although nothing like your boy!!) and everything is a high drama.
Also, what Shilasdair saya above about if he prats about on the lunge, keep pushing him on until you want to allow him to stop is great advice - If he sees bolting as a way to get you to stop him working, he will use it more and more. Make him work until you are ready for him to stop - although try to stop before he drops!!

 

[SteveD]

firstly, well done for being smart enough to dismount and stay as safe as you can...Its very unnerving when a horse goes into a blind panic and tanks off...
What bit do you ride him in, and do you use a martingale? I'd consider the strongest you can have him take in the hope that he takes notice of it when he starts to panic.
The other thing is to consider whther he is too fit. If he is, I'd turn him away for a while and let him down a little before bringing him back into work.
The other thing is feed. maybe cut out his feed before you hack out, hopefully reducing some of his energy.
Final point...you said that you felt he was a bit frisky as you left the yard...my advice is when you feel him like this, turn around and take him in the school and dont risk it...tactical withdrawal is better than fighting a battle thats very hard to win..

Good luck and stay safe!

 

[Nari]

Bexand spooky someone had already suggested the diary idea & it's definately one I'll try. This really truly isn't disobedience, evasion or general temper - he has his rare moments of those but they are totally different & can be dealt with. Now I've calmed down I can see just how much he did cope with & how well he held it together up until that point considering I knew he was very uneasy & stressed before we even started.

Steve D I really can't up his bitting anymore & over bitting him brings a whole new set of problems since he then wont take a contact & is stressed before we start. He's in a pelham ridden with two reins & that nearly always works beautifully but on these rare occassions (twice in two years? a few times before that but he's got a lot better) I don't think any bit will work because he just doesn't feel it. Turning him away - no, this lad loves & needs to work, in the past time off has caused problems so is only something I do if it's unavoidable.
On my RI's suggestion I'm stopping the small amount of sugar beet he gets & I'm putting him back on his old stomach supplement instead of the one I have on trial. I'll give the new one another go in a few weeks but I don't think it works as well for him, he's started showing signs of cribbing again & is eating less hay.
"A bit frisky" isn't really the right description of how he felt. He felt tight, uneasy & edgy about everything, frantically chomping at the bit & over alert. I was foolish to get on & a totally idiot to take him out - I need to remember that while confidence is good there is such a thing as over-confident & when dealing with Jim that is a big fault!

Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to read a very long & rambling post. The more food for thought the better & the replies have given me some more ideas.

 

[aran]

Do you know about his past? We know nothing about Arans but I'm sure he was neglected and beaten (he has evidence of rain scould and you cannot touch him with a schooling whip behind the saddle as he freaks) and I'm sure that has something to do with his irratic behaviour. He is occasionally 'odd' on the ground too - totally over-reacting to things (for instance I raised my hand to adjust my hair bobble tonight and he broke away - I've never hit him and he's not head-shy - totally not him behaviour. he then looked at me with caution for the next 10 mins - despite the fact that when he legged it he came too me!). usually i don't need a headcollar and rope - he just follows and stands up - he's very trusting but I'd never get on him bare-back and i always check my saddle carefully before mounting - anything moving sets him off big time!
Could you long-line him out hacking round the fields/tracks? aran feeds off my confidence - therefore if i'm having a crisis aran in a total scaredy-cat liable of freaking. if i see a potential trigger i have to keep my confidence and i put him into shoulder in right (he likes it and can perform it well but has to concentrate) - this really works for him. if i couldnt ride it, i'd long-line him out - just to keep him going out and about? just a thought
good luck - i really sympathise!

 

[Nari]

Aran he doesn't have a past, I bought him as a 2yo from his breeder. I knew the breeder when I was a kid - her dauughter taught me to ride - & there is no way he'd have been mistreated or roughly handled there. Long-reining him is way beyond my capabilities, I can do sane or green horses but I wouldn't even consider doing him! Again, thanks for the idea though

Watching him very closely over the last few days I'm starting to think he's having his autumn "funny" spell, just late this year because of the crazy weather. Every year he has a week or so in the autumn when he gets a very hard look about him, his reactions become hair-trigger, he seems unable to deal with things taht he wouldn't normally bat an eyelid at & he gets very assertive. It was very noticable this morning when he had to be tied to do his rugs & feet & twice reminded of his manners on the way to the field

. If that's the case I know how to deal with him & he'll be back to normal soon though we never have worked out exactly what causes this seasonal change in him.