What to do; retained baby teeth and spaying

[PingPongPony]

I need some advice.
I have a 6 month old toy poodle bitch. Full of energy, very full on all the time. Fit and healthy little pup, does a 5k run with me in the mornings and then 1h walk in the afternoon, but it consists of me constantly launching the ball with one of them stick launchers thingys, and her running after in and bringing it back, non-stop for probably 45min out of the hour walk.
She has unfortunately retained all 4 of her canine teeth, the top adult ones are growing in line with everything else, but the bottom ones have unfortunately broken through on the inside of the gums.
The baby teeth need to be surgically removed under general anaesthetic ASAP, to give the bottom canines a chance to move back into their correct position.
The vet has suggested also spaying her at the same time. However this would mean that she wouldn't have had her first season before getting spayed.
This is what I need advice on. I have two options:

1. Do her teeth and spay her at the same time.
Pros; more cost effective, overall it would cost approximately £150
Less strain on her heart as only going under once, and less stress

Cons; Uncertain on how she will react to being spayed since she hasn't gone through puberty, uncertain of what her behaviour will be like after the op.
She is such a baby in her mind, not at all an adult, i'm not sure why but I'm just not entirely convinced of chopping her bits out before she has reached maturity

2. Do teeth now, spay her 3 months after her first season

Pros; more certain of her behaviour post op
She will be fully developed, mentally and physically

Cons;
2 general anaesthetics potentially within 6 months of each other - strain on heart etc.
Cost of spay £140, cost of teeth £90, overall cost approximately £230
so costing me additional £80 compared to the other option


So what do I do?! I'm a full time undergrad student hence the cost does matter. But I would quite happily work my arse off to pay for the two separate ops if that's what would be best for my dog.

Anyone have any experiences with getting their bitch spayed before first season?
Any advice really appreciated!

 

[Bellasophia]

Just wanted to say that just taking out the teeth requires a much lighter anaesthetic so I'd not be worried about putting her on the table twice if you decide to do this.
However,if she were mine I'd wait till after the first season and do the two together.

My bigger poodles have even retained canines until seven months,so the teeth could still come out later.We helped things along with chews,healthy bones,and even tug games..
Lastly your pup is just six m ..I d say you are over exercising her..The 5 km run and then an hour in the afternoons is better suited for a dog over a year,not a six m pup...she's probably so full of life and energy you think she can easily do this amount...it's true she can,but her young joints will not take the repeated shock and you could have joint issues later.
My six m pup is doing two half hour walks a day and free running / playing in the garden during the day.

 

[PingPongPony]

Thank you for the advice.
Vet has said teeth have to come out ASAP if the bottom ones are to move out into correct position.

Regarding exercise, vet said she's fine, and tbh if I don't take her out both times, she goes mental and is absolutely horrible to be around at home, will just do laps of the garden or inside the house, pick on the older dog to try play, steal and destroy stuff etc, but if she goes out both times then she'll still quite happily trot around the house and play etc, just not be so OTT :/ 5k isn't an entire run (half walking and half jogging; my attempt at getting fitter for summer) and she is off lead then so goes at her own pace, she usually just trots along, stops to sniff etc. so the 30min ish of off lead walk/jog, then 1h in the park in the afternoons, so similar to yours, just without the free access to garden during the day

 

[ashlingm]

My own dog (a pomeranian) had the exact same problem. We got her spayed and got her teeth out in the same operation. Like yours she hadn't had her first heat. Vet actually recommended it all be done in one op. Anaesthetics carry their own risks and I'd rather just get everything done in one go rather than having to put her through surgery, anaesthetic and recovery twice.

I also used to foster dogs (10+ dogs) and most of them were done at 6 - 9 months. It's honestly not something I'd even thought twice about. The rescue was run by 2 experienced vets - and I fully trust they knew what they were doing.

I think just knock her out and get everything done in the one go

 

[Bellasophia]

Ping pong..your pup,your choice. Do you do this routine every day?Its repeated ,high impact and no vet will tell you to do this with a six m old pup. What about training her instead of running her?this would really tire her out in a different way.
When they clean teeth or take out puppy canines as in this case,the anaesthetic used is very light and the pup is under for just a few minutes....the spay takes longer and is a much more time consuming op( 20 mins)..Just think how many old dogs sail through teeth cleaning..it's relatively low risk .
Also your pup is a toy poodle...the vet will not have any problem pulling these canines,they often just need a jiggle ,so it's very easy for them to come out.Do try the chew s before she goes in...to give them a chance to come out on their own.
The advantages for a female to have at least one season are well documented,to allow her to mature and cut down the risks of future issues..eg urinary incontinence to name the most common one.however this is a personal choice and I for one would not try to persuade you as to which choice you make provided it's an informed one.

 

[PingPongPony]

no, not everyday, 3 times a week. then other 4 days it's just the afternoon walk
We do 10min training session in morning and evening, yes it makes her think, but she gets bored quickly and starts running around, bring me her toys or her lead etc.
I'm not running her, not forcing her to run at all, she is off lead when i jog, so goes at her own pace, and is again off lead in the park, if she doesn't want to chase the ball, then she doesn't, sometimes she decides to carry the ball off and chew on it, that's fine too, i don't pick it up and launch it again unless she brings it back and drops it for me to do so, which she does 9/10 times, unless there are other dogs that she can play with, which she then does instead.
The mention of exercise was more to say that she is a fit and healthy dog, not a couch potato, because I know several owners who think their dog is fit because it goes for a 30min walk once a day.

I'm however more looking for advice as to which option do I go for, and if anyone has experiences to do with spaying before their first season, thank you for the advice though

 

[SusieT]

I have to say that amount of exercise is far too much for a dog of that age - you are setting yourself up for hip and elbow problems in the future - 5 minutes per month of age is a rough guide!
Re teeth/spaying I would do both now before first season

 

[Aru]

Spay early and remove the teeth.

the retained teeth may be affecting her incoming canines and may cause longterm problems.esp given she is a breed that is know for dental issues.poodles are small dogs and not a breed prone to urinary incontence which is the main issue with early spays.
So i would class the dental issues as a larger longterm risk versus the risks of an early spay

The anaesthetic used for all procedures should be the same(premed,induction and gas) so the risks of going under an anaesthetic for a dental should be the the same as for a spay.spays however as an operation carry more risk as you are removing an organ.... but its a procedures vets do daily and these days most practices have safe anaesthetics and a nurse monitoring throughout op and recovery.

Retained teeth are usually quite easily removed though canines are the most awkward and most likely to cause issues if left.

 

[Thistle]

The rule for exercise is 5 mins for every month of pups life (per day), no forced running, no jumping, no agility until a year old. This does not include pottering round the garden.

Difficult with high energy dogs (I have a springer pup amongst other dogs). Better to keep the brain busy. The fitter the dog the more exercise it will require!

 

[Copperpot]

My pup had those teeth. Got him a bone and they wiggled out on their own accord. For what it's worth I agree re the exercise. Far too much. It may be ok now but when she's 8 with arthritis you may regret it. I was so careful with my dobie. No jumping or long runs until she was 18 months old. She's now 10, fit as a fiddle and never stiff etc. I know it hard with a high energy dog but her joints etc are still growing and forming. you wouldn't want to do permanent damage to Her.

 

[PingPongPony]

Thank you for all advice.
I think I will do both at the same time, I'm going to speak to my vet one more time but i'm 90% sure that this is the right way to go.

We have tried bones etc, she also has a deer horn that she chews on daily (bedtime treat), we also play tug of war etc, the teeth are honestly not going anywhere unless someone gets them out surgically, they're not even the tiniest bit wobbly.

For those concerned about amount of exercise, I DO NOT force her to run. I agree, the wording of my original post can be interpreted that way but trust me when I say that you cannot get this stubborn little thing to do anything she doesn't want to do.
Here's a detailed description of what she does exactly;

3 times a week (mon, wed, fri)

5k in the morning, I'm doing a c25k challenge, i was very unfit, starting to get better, she has only started to come with me for the last few weeks. Atm my work out is= 5min walking to warm up, 90sec jog, 90sec walk, 3min jog, 3 min walk, repeat all again, and 5 min walking to cool down. it takes 28min, she is on lead for the warm up and cool down because we have to go near a road, after the warm up, she is let off lead, and goes at her own pace. most of the time she runs ahead and waits for me while wagging her tail (i'm not very fast)

in the afternoon

15min walk on lead to the park, then once in park, let loose. if other dogs present she will play with them, if no other dogs, she will yap at me to throw the ball for her with the launcher (the ball doesn't get thrown until she is sat down next to me, and quiet, no yapping). Chances are she will get bored after 30min and just run around sniffing etc, especially on the days that she went out with me in the morning.

On the remaining days (tue, thur, sat and sun) we only go to the park in the afternoon. On those days she doesn't usually give up with the ball until I stop her.

Everyday, she has 10min training in the morning and 10min in the afternoon/evening. She gets bored and distracted very quickly, she's extremely clever and picks things up very quickly. She knows all her toys by name so if I'm doing something, just to keep her occupied I will ask her to bring me different toys. I usually go round the house and hide them too because she really enjoys tracking stuff down, so that keeps her occupied, if I send her to go and find 'pig', it can take her up to 20min to find it and bring it back, I just keep repeating that until she has brought them all.
After she gets a frozen kong or if i'm going out to uni/work then she gets the kong in her crate.
Bedtime she gets the deer horn. Quiet time is from 8 onwards, from then on, its not running around, no noise, go on your bed and be quiet type of thing. She is happy to do that with her deer horn providing she's had her usual amount of exercise. If not enough exercise, then god help you, you will have a bouncy, yappy ball of fluff literally bouncing off the walls. She will not leave you alone, will bring you all her toys, and show you the full repertoire of all the tricks she can do.

So this is the usual day in Roux's life. Her father is the same (energy level wise) as are 2 of her sisters (we all keep in touch with each other) so it doesn't seem to be a matter of diet or anything like that. But if anyone is interested, she is fed Orijen puppy, twice a day.

 

[SusieT]

Forcing is nothing - you are walking for 5k - thus she goes with you. We are not commenting on a dog being dragged out but on a young pup who is full of energy and doesn't know that too much impact on her growth plates will adversely affect her later in life. In ten years time, feel free to come and tell us we were wrong - I doubt it and tbh by now the damage is probably done.

 

[ashlingm]

The anaesthetic used for all procedures should be the same(premed,induction and gas) so the risks of going under an anaesthetic for a dental should be the the same as for a spay.spays however as an operation carry more risk as you are removing an organ.... but its a procedures vets do daily and these days most practices have safe anaesthetics and a nurse monitoring throughout op and recovery.

This is correct. I don't understand Ballasophia's statement about light anaesthetic? I am a vet student myself and a dog is under anesthetic or it isn't. There's really no middle ground. If not enough is used dogs will twitch in response to pain. So enough has to be used so they are completely relaxed - be it for spaying or teeth removal.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I have a large breed and wouldn't spay at 6 months, not so much due to the lack of season but because they haven't finished growing. With a toy breed that wouldn't be such an issue, but I think I would give her a little longer, with lots of bones and chews for her teeth,and then do both procedures at the same time.
I am with everyone else with regard the exercise, not just the 5k walking/running, but the twisting involved with fetching a ball repeatedly, really not good for a young puppy. She is obviously a bright pup (as are most poodles) so I would introduce lots more brain work and reduce the exercise until she is fully mature.

 

[Bellasophia]

I'm not a vet,so use of the term light anaesthetic was re time under...as I stated the dog will only be under for a short time ,akin to a tooth clean,with just the removal of the canines.,as opposed to longer time for the spay .
It's the excercise issue I was most concerned about and am surprised Aru didn't address this.
I also post on an all poodle board (. Over 15 yrs) and we have seen high no.s of poodles with post spay incontinence ,so I think it's not just the large breeds ,eg rotts etc,that are more prone .one of my poodle girls had this too,but she was spayed at six,so not an early spay.

 

[gunnergundog]

Me? I would get her teeth sorted now. I wouldn't spay until she is both physically and mentally mature.....I would guess not until at least 12 months old. My preference is to wait until a bitch has had at least two seasons so you have some idea as to what her cycle may be; that way you can judge whether the safe mid-way point is indeed three months after her last season or something totally different.

More importantly, I would follow the advice of Bellasophia and all the others above and cut right back on the exercise right now. Start tiring her brain to keep her quiet rather than seeking to tire her body, or else panosteitis here you come! And that would be the 'best' outcome of all the various issues that over-exercise can cause.

 

[CAYLA]

I would spay and have teeth removed together. I do have a personal preference for breed versus neuter age and in a small breed I would have no issues spaying before a first season and at the age of 6 months.