What to do when vets don't know?

[Finns Mum]

Sorry I know this isn't competition riders but this is where I lurk the most and respect the knowledge of the people in here

Ok this is going to be long so I will offer tea and biscuits to start to keep your interest and something stronger at the end

In April my horse suddenly had loss of performance, suddenly I lost energy, connection and suppleness. He threw in the occasional buck when asking for canter (very very out of character) and wasn't able to hold canter particularly well.

The vet came out and gave him full lameness exam but was declared sound and moving well. With this knowledge I was more confident to ride through any issues and things settled down although in hindsight he never had the extra sparkle he normally has.

Then mid May I started to notice him laboring after very little work, he seemed to be breathing oddly and respiratory rate was raised during work. I monitored him and as soon as I noticed his resting respiratory rate was raised I called the vet, who wasn't unduly concerned took bloods and left me with a tub of ventapulmin and to see how we went.

Bloods came back clear and from then on we have had regular visits as he has seemed very unhappy in himself, lethargic, labored breathing and raised heart rate, he had ECG all fine, he was scoped all fine, he was scanned and there was concern his organs seemed to be too far up his body. My vet thought he saw intestine in front of the diaphragm.

He then went off to Liphook, lung biopsy and further scope fine, x-rays of chest fine, they weren't concerned about what they saw on the scan, yes everything further up but everything in right place and abnormality put down to him having unusually small lungs for horse his size (though this is a horse that flys xc and has no trouble getting in the time and finishing fine so if he has always had them they haven't bothered him before).

He came away from there with instructions to get some weight off him as fatty deposits were seen in barium x-ray. He is no fatter than previous years and I have had him 6yrs with no problems. But fair enough I am following their instructions, which also included bringing him back into work.

So after some long reining I have started to walk him out but he feels horrible, like he can not physically connect back and front end he is so far on his forehand I feel like I am going over his shoulder, he is unresponsive to leg and hand aids and it contantly mouthing the bit excessively. Normally this horse is so cooperative and willing to please I know it’s not a schooling issue, he's had longer time off than this before and has never felt this odd when coming back into work.

It doesn't feel like a lameness or back pain, it feels to me that its internal but all the tests so far have come back ok, and as he is eating and seeming ok to those that don't know him, they seem to have dismissed him as being overweight and unfit which he wasn't when all this started.

Actually my vet doesn't agree but as he has been discharged from Liphook he doesn't really know where to go from here either. He is back out on Thursday to test for insulin resistance on my request but doesn't think that is the issue.

I know its a big ask but has anyone come across anything like this before or have any ideas as to what I can suggest testing for next.

Okay I know its early but Im stressed so there is wine, or tea for those not in need of alchol and of course plenty of cake, or apples for those being healthy

 

[SnowGoose]

Poor you, its horrid when you cant find an answer assuming you've had his teeth and saddle checked as you've been so thorough with everything else, only thing i wondered is how long you have had him out of work for? If a while may explain a little bit of his lack of 'connectedness'. may also be worth speaking to a nutritionist re his diet to ensure that while you are trying to reduce his weight he is still getting all the nutrients he needs and enough energy to work. hope you find an answer soon. x

 

[scatty_mare]

Oh that's so horrible. I probably can't really help much, it sounds like you have checked everything out. Did the vets x-ray his feet?
A couple of years ago I had an ex-racer who went from a willing, forward-going chap to seeming really uncomfortable - hollowing and swishing his tail when you put your leg on, reluctant to move forward even without a rider. We assumed ulcers and had him scoped. Low grade ulcers found, so he was treated but there was no improvement. The vet couldn't find any sign of lameness and told me I was imagining it, or that it was behavioural and he was anticipating pain from ulcers - but as it came on so suddenly that didn't seem like enough of an explanation and we wanted to rule everything else out.
We had his back, saddle and teeth checked, but nothing changed. The farrier thought it could be his feet - really poor growth and very flat - and that altering the balance of the hoof could help. It didn't seem like feet to me, more internal as you say, but lots of people said it could cause those symptoms so that would have been our next avenue to explore.
Anyway, I don't have an answer as that horse was sadly kicked in the field and had to be put down.
So that's my experience, which is probably less than helpful! Can I still have some wine? I hope you find an answer soon.

 

[mrussell]

oh my.. now I just KNOW I am going to regret this but... I do feel what you mean in that he's almost humped up with discomfort. (sorry, had to say it like that as thats how Im reading what you describe).

We had a very similar horse, who was an ex-racer. Originally the vets thought it was an auto-immune problem, then it was put down to his feet, then his saddle, then his teeth, then he had his bloods done... and nothing seemed to work.

Now heres where Im going to get behind my sandbags and prepare for the rotten eggs BUT I took 2 final approaches...

1)Body and Mind.... Larry Bensusan - shiatsu miracle worker... can tell you just about everything your horse is feeling and how its affecting how he works. Trouble is hes based in Suffolk and goes as far north as Piggys French's and Phoebe Buckleys yard but no further so not sure where you are. Treatments are £40 per horse, and one treatment is enough for most issues.

2) Internals - Silver Lining Herbs...again, not sure how the chap does it but he can read a photo and tell you what your horses symptoms are... quite awesome. He then dispenses a mix of herbs to cleanse the organs. Once youve gone through the process, you can switch onto cheaper versions of the herbs but the stuff he sells is amazing and its worth having his opinion.

Okay, off to stir my cauldron.... but I can promise you that when conventional medicine failed I found these 2 guys are the dogs doodahs..

Today Chester is eventing (badly but I blame the rider) and blossoming every day...

 

[kerilli]

i think firstly you have to trust your instincts, you know your horse and if he doesn't feel right, believe yourself and him, more than the vets.
i would put him on as natural a diet as possible if you haven't already, avoid all mixes, nuts etc. just hay (i'd avoid haylage, too acidic for some horses i've been told by someone whose knowledge i really respect), alfa if more energy is needed.
if time is not of the essence i would personally try good old 'Doctor Green', i.e. chuck him out in a field for a year. it is amazing how much good this does for a LOT of horses.
Umm, also... i'd try riding him bareback, see if he feels better. i'm always suspicious of saddles, i've seen them cause some shocking things, even when a Master saddler has said they fitted perfectly.
otherwise, i think the above suggestions are very good. i'd also look at having Ellen Collinson (iridologist and herbalist) out to him, she'll be able to tell if he has kidney/liver etc issues and give herbs to assist.
if you get desperate enough (i did) some Horse Communicators are very good. The ones i have used offered a full refund if you thought they were way out, so nothing to lose imho.
If you haven't already, a good McTimoney Chiropractor will work wonders on both of you. I would get yourself checked too, just to ensure that you are straight and level and not affecting him adversely in some way... clutching at straws here though, i know.
very best of luck, please keep us posted.

 

[smurf]

One of mine was 'off form' a couple of years ago and we/vet could not find the reason, I did try the herbs from Silver Lining and they did nothing for my horse. Ditto bottles and bottle of Aloe Vera. In the end it was just time, lots of it and TLC.

Hope he picks up soon - mine did and is now 100%, although we still don't know what the problem was.

 

[dressagecrazy]

How old is your horse?? I think your right to have an IR test done.

 

[Finns Mum]

Yes teeth checked right at the beginning as he has a history of teeth problems, but all looked good there.

He's just turned 10, i've had him from a 4 yr old.

Farrier out on Thursday so will get him to give him a good checkover again.

I will try riding him in my other saddle and see if there is a difference, but it feels more internal as he constantly has a misrable pained look in his eye even during his time off, and just brushing him can make him find something to chew.

He is not on any hard feed as such just fast fibre, molasses free chaff and a vit and min supplement. Having been told he is overweight I have cut everything down and he is on soaked hay. I am also restricting his turnout, Liphook said he needed to stay in for 2-4 months until he reached target weight but its not really practicle for him so for the moment I am restricting until we get IR test results.

My vet is in agreement with this as he really isn't that porky here's a pic just in case you all feel I am looking at him with rose tinted glasses

He's a bit of a scruff at the moment

Can you see that line (which I presume is a fatty deposit) in front of his hind quaters, its that area he can be sensitive to be groomed, but surely if there was anything going on there the scan and xray would pick it up

I am open to all things conventional and not so Will look into those suggestions thank you, I have tried Silverlining in the past and would consider that again, thanks for reminding me of them

Ahem {looks around in embarrassed fashion} I have been put in contact with a animal communicator who is going to "talk" to him tomorrow, I am that desperate

Funny you should mention McTimmoney Kerilli, I have been deliberating with myself this morning whether to get his lady out or not, just feel I am throwing money after money at the moment, and the insurance company haven't confirmed they are paying yet

Would happily turn him away but worried something nasty is brewing that will get worse if we don't get to the bottom of it but guess there comes a time when I have to say I've tested everything possible.

 

[Jane_Lou]

I would 2nd mrussell suggestion of Shiatsu - I have seen some remarkable outcomes with this, it is just amazing what comes out from a session - where abouts are you as I can also recommend someone and it really is not that expensive that I would give it a try even of the insurance is not going to pay.

 

[minigal]

Buute trial? Might rule out pain (or confirm it.) Although in light of possible stomach problems maybe not?

 

[Finns Mum]

I would 2nd mrussell suggestion of Shiatsu - I have seen some remarkable outcomes with this, it is just amazing what comes out from a session - where abouts are you as I can also recommend someone and it really is not that expensive that I would give it a try even of the insurance is not going to pay.

We're in Berkshire

Bute trial did cross my mind but as you say could cause more problems.

Horses huh

 

[classicalfan]

Be interesting to hear what your hrose communicator says. He looks camped out behind. Are you sure there is no pelvic/hip pain. If it's not in the joints then have you checked for rectal melinomas etc?

 

[kerilli]

has he been scoped for ulcers?
don't be embarrassed about the animal communicator thing, i honestly believe that, just like mediums, there are some truly gifted people out there (and probably a lot of charlatans too, but hey ho... it's worth a try.)

 

[Rouletterose]

Sounds very much as though it could be one of those nasty viruses, main symptom seems to be lack of energy/sparkle/lethargic/laboured breathing? this points to a virus IMO. Some viruses do not show up anything on blood tests, have you had urine samples taken? this can show up a multitude. Am speaking from experience, gelding we had almost the same symptoms as you describe all the same tests as you have had done and clear results, we turned away for 3 months and kept a watchful eye on him, he did come up much better and in the end our vet said it had probably been one of those unexplainable viruses.

He did come back to his oldself but it took quite a while and building slowly.

Wish you every success with it as I remember it to have been a horrible time and a huge worry, he was 12 when it started and we had owned him since a 2 year old.

 

[daisycrazy]

I would also recommend trying shiatsu - if it doesn't start to make a noticeable difference after one or two sessions, however, then in my experience it won't do much good (though it might be worth trying another practitioner). I had a horse with that line across his body and who was tight behind - one Shiatsu treatment (and believe me we had tried all conventional options) and even though he wasn't being ridden in time, his muscle developed at a rate of knots and he bloomed. Just wish I'd tried it a few years sooner.

 

[amage]

Sounds alot like my lady has done for the last while. We were able to identify two issues....a whopper reaction to Oil Seed rape Pollen which went on for quite a while yet bloods were coming back normal. Out of shear desperation I started using a nosenet, fly mask and stuck her on Naf Respirator. She had some mild colics and everything while under the weather and we were also loathe to try a bute trial but eventually gritted our teeth and tried it. While she had great response to bute the trigger was still acting and it was one of our TB fillies going from brilliant to utterly useless overnight coupled with OH having massive hayfever attack that helped us identify it. When back in action after this there was still something I couldn't put my finger on. I went to a lameness specialist and we started at her ears, worked our way back to her tail and after copious nerve blocking and a three and a half our work up we found reactions in her hind suspensories that were severe enough to cause an issue but only really seen when under saddle as was similar lack of going forwards etc. We medicated her hind suspensories and 4 weeks on she is a different horse. We are still only walking/trotting and allowed the odd canter from this week but her whole demeanor has changed. She is standing to be groomed where she had been shifting feet alot, nipping etc, she is carrying on like a 3 year old (she's 15) and has taken on the role of yard hooligan! My own vet had recommended going to this other vet as we wanted fresh eyes so we basically told her very little (this is the way she wanted it) and she then set to work identifying,diagnosing and treating.