What to do with my unridable horse (long) Help

[i_should_be_working]

Help. I bought a young horse nearly a year ago. He was a 6 year old but had only been broken and over from Ireland for 4 months when I bought him. Anyway I'm a fairly experienced rider having evented to intermediate level and had bought on several young event horses from just broken in the past. Anyway I'm also a careful rider and won't just get on anything as I apprecaite the fact that I need to work and pay the bills. He was very expensive but had masses of potencial (the most I had ever paid for for a horse as I sold 2 to pay for him) moves like a dream, huge jump but a very calm laid back temperment. I fell off him the second day we had him when he freaked when I was given a leg up. I got straight back on him off the mounting block and all seemed fine except that he needed to be held by someone to be mounted (some days he also needed bribes). He then threw me off whilst hacking 4 months later so I walked him home and mounted him again 4 times in the school as I was then late for work. Next day we took him to a jump clinic and he threw me off 4 times trying to get on - the last time I ended up in casualty with a list of injuries to defy an eposode of casualty. I wasn't allowed to ride for 6 weeks due to my injuries (now 9 months later I cannot get riding boots on due to my injury and have had to ride my other horse (loaned to me) in thermal boots all summer to give my leg some padding. Although we had taken him very slowly in the time we had him he had learnt to hack out, had won every competition entered (although we kept the jumping small while he built up strength) all trainers adhored him, judges loved him and he was a lovely horse to have around. Looking back on it from my hospital bed I realised that he had slowly become sharper and sharper as he became fitter and stronger. I came to the conclusion that I would sell him as he needed to be in a pro environment and my boss was unhappy that I was laid up bacause of a horse. He has all the talent and movement to go Advanced BE. I sent him to a pro showjumper friend of mine and put him up for sale. At that price we obviously didn't have people queuing up for him. Vet, physio, saddlefitter, chiro and dentist all checked him and found nothing wrong he is just very sharp. Anyway the pro stopped riding him in July as he was being bronked off him a couple of times per day. I couldn't risk a strnager getting on him when we had no idea if he would be well behaved or not. We turned him away to grass to "de-fit" him and fatten him up and have recently started to lay over his back with the intention of putting a saddle on him. Every time we lay over or put a rug on him he bronks until he has torn rug off himself or rider has slipped down. He is the same in stable and school. I have worked on him for a month with "ground work" as I have a good friend that is a natural horsemanship practisioner and has been guiding me with what to do. Unfortunately everyone (pro comp riders) that knows him now refuses to get on him and I know there is no way I have the confidence with him to get back on. I have an enormous amount of money tied up in him and want to get out. I accept I will lose money but right now everyone is telling me to have him shot as he is too young and sharp to keep as a pet. Besides I believe hosres need a job to do. What should I do?

Well done if you have got this far

 

[Silverspring]

Can you add paragraphs please? I am interested to read what you are asking but my eyes get sore looking at blocks of text

 

[RuthP]

I know the vet etc have looked over him but it really does sound like he's in pain. Has his back been x-rayed?

 

[MizElz]

I know someone who had a horse a bit like this once, a great big black horse by Dutch Gold....after months of persevering with him, sending him to professionals and having all the necessary back/physical checks, they decided he was 'screwy'. They rang up a no-questions-asked dealer, sold him for no more than meat money, and he was taken away in a cattle truck

 

[BigRed]

It sounds like he was always a problem. The Irish don't leave good looking horses until they are 6 years old, unless there is a problem.

I suspect he has a physical problem and it is just that no-one has gotten to the bottom of it. As there is always the financial aspect to horses, there comes a time when you do have to cut your losses.

I responded to an advert a few years ago, for 2 dressage horses. One was a straight normal horse and the other was very cheap because they said it was nappy and naughty and kept throwing the lady off. They sold the naughty horse straight away. It was £2500 because it was very well bred and good looking.

If you are cutting your losses, why not try a truthful advert, you have nothing to lose as having him shot will cost you money.

 

[SALLYT]

I would agree that it does sound like a pain issue, could you not investigate his back further.

 

[i_should_be_working]

He hasn't been x-rayed but he had his back blocked and then ridden on bute (2 per day and he is lightweight 16hds)for over a week t see that if he was in pain he would be used to it not being there. He showed no improvement, his gait didn't change either. The vet had already x-rayed his feet and hocks for the insurance co and they were totally clean too.

 

[HenryandPeta]

Poor you, I feel for you and can certainly sympathise. Perhaps it's worth getting his back, neck etc checked over by someone else, just to be certain there's nothing going on.

My previous horse would bolt for no reason - the usual checks on teeth, back, saddle all came back 'fine'. His new owners (who bought him fully aware of his issues) had a full body scan done on him and found that he has a condition in the vertebrae in his neck that when pressure is applied to a certain point along the spine (ie from a rider), blood flow to the brain is blocked somehow and he feels intense pain which made him run blindly forward. I can't remember the name of the condition but it is permanent with no treatment - so he cannot now be ridden. However, they are keeping him and driving him as the pressure applied to the spine is no longer there - he is perfectly happy and still has a job to do and enjoys life.

Just worth a thought that perhaps there's something else going on that the usual back checks wouldn't have picked up on. hope you can get to the bottom of it, for the horses sake as well as yours!

 

[HenryandPeta]

[ QUOTE ]
He hasn't been x-rayed but he had his back blocked and then ridden on bute (2 per day and he is lightweight 16hds)for over a week t see that if he was in pain he would be used to it not being there. He showed no improvement, his gait didn't change either. The vet had already x-rayed his feet and hocks for the insurance co and they were totally clean too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps the bute took the pain away but he still "thought" it was going to hurt and it was the anticipation of pain that was then the issue....

 

[BigRed]

You have already invested a lot of money in this horse and I do not know your financial situation. If you think he is a superstar and you have the money, you should send him to a horse hospital to be checked over, no matter how good you think your vet is, they can miss stuff. I have a neighbour who bought a horse knowing he did not like to be saddled. He got worse and then decided he could not jump, then could not canter or trot, THEN went lame. It was not until he got to horse hospital they decided he had a cyst in his stifle. He had an op and a long recovery. The point is, the regular vet did not see it, neither did the back people etc. etc. The horse was in pain which he associated with the saddle. It was a long time until he actually started to limp.

 

[Taffster]

I heard of something similar, an event rider had a big 17h chestnut gelding (can't remember its name) he spent a year trying to get this horse to accept mounting, this horse again was exceptional and would jump anything bold and brave. He ended up selling it for less than £1000 just to get rid. Such a shame as if it hadn't had mounting issues it would have been surely worth in excess of £10k. I am telling this tale in the hope that you didnt buy the same one??

 

[RuthP]

I'd have further investigations if finances allow and its a route you want to go down. Have you had a second opinion from a different vet?

I really feel for you and hope you get this sorted.

 

[i_should_be_working]

Sorry got carried away with the typing!

Help. I bought a young horse nearly a year ago. He was a 6 year old but had only been broken and over from Ireland for 4 months when I bought him. Anyway I'm a fairly experienced rider having evented to intermediate level and had bought on several young event horses from just broken in the past. Anyway I'm also a careful rider and won't just get on anything as I apprecaite the fact that I need to work and pay the bills.

He was very expensive but had masses of potencial (the most I had ever paid for for a horse as I sold 2 to pay for him) moves like a dream, huge jump but a very calm laid back temperment. I fell off him the second day we had him when he freaked when I was given a leg up. I got straight back on him off the mounting block and all seemed fine except that he needed to be held by someone to be mounted (some days he also needed bribes).

He then threw me off whilst hacking 4 months later so I walked him home and mounted him again 4 times in the school as I was then late for work. Next day we took him to a jump clinic and he threw me off 4 times trying to get on - the last time I ended up in casualty with a list of injuries to defy an eposode of casualty. I wasn't allowed to ride for 6 weeks due to my injuries (now 9 months later I cannot get riding boots on due to my injury and have had to ride my other horse (loaned to me) in thermal boots all summer to give my leg some padding. Although we had taken him very slowly in the time we had him he had learnt to hack out, had won every competition entered (although we kept the jumping small while he built up strength) all trainers adhored him, judges loved him and he was a lovely horse to have around. Looking back on it from my hospital bed I realised that he had slowly become sharper and sharper as he became fitter and stronger. I came to the conclusion that I would sell him as he needed to be in a pro environment and my boss was unhappy that I was laid up bacause of a horse.

He has all the talent and movement to go Advanced BE. I sent him to a pro showjumper friend of mine and put him up for sale. At that price we obviously didn't have people queuing up for him. Vet, physio, saddlefitter, chiro and dentist all checked him and found nothing wrong he is just very sharp. Anyway the pro stopped riding him in July as he was being bronked off him a couple of times per day. I couldn't risk a stranger getting on him when we had no idea if he would be well behaved or not. We turned him away to grass to "de-fit" him and fatten him up and have recently started to lay over his back with the intention of putting a saddle on him.


Every time we lay over or put a rug on him he bronks until he has torn rug off himself or rider has slipped down. He is the same in stable and school. I have worked on him for a month with "ground work" as I have a good friend that is a natural horsemanship practisioner and has been guiding me with what to do. Unfortunately everyone (pro comp riders) that know him now refuses to get on him and I know there is no way I have the confidence with him to get back on. I have an enormous amount of money tied up in him and want to get out. I accept I will lose money but right now everyone is telling me to have him shot as he is too young and sharp to keep as a pet. Besides I believe horses need a job to do. What should I do?
Well done if you have got this far

 

[Taffster]

Obviously not the same one as just read all other posts and realise yours is 16h lw, sorry!
I am sorry you too have ended up in this situation!

 

[TicTac]

Personally I would have the horses spine and pelvis x rayed which I can appreciate will cost money. If everything is ok then why not get in touch with Richard Maxwell or Michael Pace. These two men are very very good with horses like this and if they can't sort him out then he maybe a no hoper. Good luck and please let us know how things go.

 

[Shilasdair]

QR
In my experience of them, horses are very rational, logical creatures who tend to have good reasons for their actions.
His broncing when mounted is a lot of work for him; more work and less pleasant than being ridden. He must have his reasons.
As I see it you have a few options;
1. PTS
2. Sell him 'sold as seen'.
3. Sell him as a companion/project making his problems very clear in writing, to the potential buyer.
4. Undertake further veterinary checks (at a horspital) to see if you can identify the cause of his behaviour.

Depending on finances, I would probably go for no. 4 myself, as I think there are few genuinely bad horses. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable with options 1 or 2, but everyone has to make their own decisions. Option 3 seems honest to me.
Unfortunately, no matter what option you take, you are going to lose money on this horse - there is no way to avoid this.
S

 

[i_should_be_working]

Taffster - no don't worry he is grey.

He has had full investigations by 2 different vet practises (mine and my show jumper friend), 2 different saddle fitters, 3 different chiros but only one physio and 1 dentist. My farrier is also a "top farrier" and used by the most local vet hospital for surgical shoeing and said that he can see no problem from the way he wears his shoes. From an insurance point of view m vet said that there is no clinical reason to refer him for a bone scan and if I pay for it to be done that could be several £000's added to my bill.

When he bronks there is no warning, no tension no twitch of a muscle or flick of an ear. Once you are on the floor he walks very calmly down the school, pops the post and rail fence with thick hedge behind it (all from walk) and then walks very calmly to his stable.

He is totally calm before and immediately after

 

[adgetom]

where r u based

 

[suzysparkle]

I was thinking along the lines of Richard Maxwell as well.
http://www.richard-maxwell.com/training_livery.html

Also, I know many people will dismiss this sort of thing, but this lady is amazing, and covers the whole of the UK (I think). She is 100% genuine and I've seen her work on a few animals.
http://www.horselistenerscotland.co.uk/

 

[HenryandPeta]

[ QUOTE ]
Taffster - no don't worry he is grey.

When he bronks there is no warning, no tension no twitch of a muscle or flick of an ear. Once you are on the floor he walks very calmly down the school, pops the post and rail fence with thick hedge behind it (all from walk) and then walks very calmly to his stable.

He is totally calm before and immediately after

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely sounds like my old horse - there's be no warning, nothing you could relate to the bolting, no sign at all, and he'd be fine immediately after...

 

[i_should_be_working]

Thanks everyone. Its a comfort that he isn't the only talented "quirky" horse out there. Richard Maxwell was on my list of options as I am sure he has more time, confidence, experience and facilities to give my boy a last chance. Sometimes he broncs after 30mins work, other times 2 mins there is no rhyme or reason - maybe Richard can figure him out. I've heard great things about him in the past. He has managed to cut himself badly when the hunt past our village yesterday so once he is all mended I shall see if Richard has any spaces.

If he has no luck I think I will have him PTS as he realy is dangerous in the wrong hands. I will buy a lottery ticket and hope that covers the loss!!! Thank you nice to know I'm not alone.

 

[i_should_be_working]

Surrey/Kent borders

 

[quirky]

Where are you based?

We have a pro up here who specialises in this type of horse. He will assess, try to sort out and if poss sell for you. Alternatively, he will tell you there is no fixing it and you would take it back off him and find another option to take.

 

[Harrie123]

Sorry to hear about your problems!!!

I really like Richard, he came to see my horse once, as he did his back for me! At the time he also gave me some great loading tips which have helped me with lots of horses ever since.

Richard was taught by Monty Roberts to do intelligent horsemanship and has a mention in one of his books. He has a lot of experiance with different types of training, definitely worth checking out.

If not there are intelligent horsemanship qualified people around the country, Monty is doing demos at the moment, check out their website.

 

[sundance]

I know that I am only going to repeat what everyone else has said but....... I would be very tempted to take him to have syntigraphy or at least digital xrays on his back and neck. My horse has kissing spines and he would explode when you got on or even say the first canter stride, or just when he got tense. He is much worse in the cold weather. He has had the offending spines removed but although better, it hasnt completley gone away and I think it is now just a reaction and perhaps remembered pain, but at least now I can calm him down the second he goes tense or get off!! There is Michael Peace, he is fab and is in Oxfordshire, so although not exactly close to you he is closer than Richard Maxwell. If it were my decision and its not it yours and your money, I would feel better having a thorough health check done first. You could consider sending him to the blood bank if all else fails. Of course you wont get any money but he would just have a nice life living in a herd.

 

[Theresa_F]

Is there the possibly that he has something wrong with his brain - tumour? This may explain the sudden flipping and then immediate calm.

I do would try Richard Maxwell or someone like him.

 

[i_should_be_working]

I have just googled Michael Pearce and cannot find a link to a website or anything - does any one have these details?

How would a brain tumour be diagnosed?

 

[Happytohack]

Your horse's behaviour is very similar to one I saw Richard Maxwell ride in one of his demos. The horse came to him as extremely talented but impossible to get on. As soon as anyone tried to get on him, he bucked them off big time. It turned out that the bucking was definitely pain related and even when the horse had been treated he still remembered the pain. I am not sure how long Max had had the horse by the time I saw him, but at the demo the horse stood quietly while he got on from a mounting block and could be ridden with no tack at all, just a neck strap.
If the horse is as talented as you say, I agree with Shilasdair (for once) and would go with further veterinary investigation at an equine hospital and then get in touch with someone like Max.
If you decide to sell him as he is, even if you are totally honest, he is likely to be passed from cheap pillar to cheaper post.

 

[arwenplusone]

Sorry if I am repeating others but I agree with shilasdair.

Have you had him looked at at one of the top Vet hospitals? (Rossdales or the like) I would do this - xray his spine & then take it from there.
Richard Maxwell maybe but I would try to thoroughly eliminate all potential pain issues before you go down this route.

Good luck - it must be so tough. x

 

[Marchtime]

I agree with the others. My horse had a number of behavioural issues and all turned out to be caused by damage to his suspensory ligament. He was never lame. It took a number of months for his behaviour to improve even after recovery because he remembered the pain and associated the school with pain.
I'd be pushing your vets for a work up. What is he like lunged? Does he display similar behaviour?