What to do with my unridable horse (long) Help

Hi there,
Reading your posts makes me feel quite sick: I had my 6yo with VERY similar problems to yours put to sleep on 31/7/08: I went down every avenue, only to find that not only were his hind suspensories b*ggered but he also had a mild case of kissing spine: the only conclusion we could draw was that he was suffering with mild but chronic pain and that he'd been psychologically damaged during breaking. Top neurologist at RVC told me to think of my horse as being mentally ill. Investigations including a full body scintigraphy scan cost over 4k. Like you, I suspected some sort of brain problem, but a spinal tap was negative: this in itself isn't too expensive but it's not terribly nice for your horse.

Michael Peace is the only person I would ever trust with a horse like this, but please, if your horse is really dangerous don't leave it with Mike expecting miracles. His telephone number is 01865 842806. My horse was with him for 4 months, longer than any other horse Mike has ever had, and he was so happy with him.
Best of luck, I really do sympathise. PM me if you want any more info.
 
I bought a horse on the cheap with excellent breeding and movement to die for, He was wild I had livery yard owners refusing to touch him even go in and feed him he was only a youngster. I was on a big livery yard and felt uneasy as children were always around, we moved him to a very quiet diy yard that was mostly adults and had 24/7 turnout. He was never moved from stable without chiffney and I had my instructor who had worked with top eventers come in it was long and hard and at times wondered why I bothered after 3 years he was a different horse though still had the attidude. sadly my boy had to be PTS some horses do have temp that are bad but with right work, enviroment, feed you can settle them. I once was told that some of the best comp horses were so badly behaved when young. Though if you feel you can not work with him anymore your best to cut your losses and sell him though be honest. good luck.
 
Hi ya,

Could i ask how is on the floor. Does he show any unusual behaviours there? Is he moody doing anything else other than riding/mounting- tacking up, grooming etc? How is he with other horses and people? Knew a horse once that was in a lot of back pain which was originally labelled as behavioural problems but he displayed problems on the floor as well as ridden.

xxx
 
Crikey - I am so sorry to hear about this. As every one else has said, you need to ask yourself do you want to spend any more money or not.

If you do then consider more tests and or a totaly different approach, pehaps sending him away to a NH person, or Richard Maxwell etc.

If not then PTS or sold as seen. I hope it works out for you in the end.
 
hate to cut to the chase but is he insured??? my friend had horse like that and when xrayed it turned out to be kissing spine?!?! Her horse went off to hospital for a while to have an mri but it is very expensive and hers was insured. I hope you sort it all out soon
 
We had a beautiful TBxWelshD, who would stand up on her back legs at times, and was spooky as hell. Would lead fine when going out, but took two to bring in at tea time. Her problems were all food related. She could only tolerate grass, hay and alfalfa. Grain was a none starter as was molasses. It may be worth a look at his diet, and then VERY slow re-introduction to work. Hope you get some resolution to this.
 
Vets have done 2 complete work ups, even giving him a complete spinal block and as I said he was then kept on bute so that if anything hurt he might forget about it. He will be fine for a week then BAMM!
Sometimes he is fine to get on, sometimes he isn't. Sometimes he is fine to hack and then sometimes he isn't. Absolutely perfect to lunge loose/side reins/passoa. Usually great to handle but ever so often you can be leading him and then whoosh he has gone.
When this happens it is usually if he is coming in from the field a bit early so we always thought that was a bit of temper.
I had a horse on livery with very bad kissing spine (we didn't know at the time) and his behaviour is very different. With the KS horse we knew he struggled jumping, ridden down hill, if he slipped while hacking, deep going. All of these would provoke an adverse reaction from him. The grey is very different there is absolutely no consistency why he broncs.
 
He does have issues with other horses. While he has been rested this summer he jumped out of his field and into one with a very elderly pony. All was calm and quiet and then an hour later he marched up to the pony (who was minding his own business eating) and bamm back barrels and the pony now has a broken leg.

He has only been on pure grass all summer so should have "detoxed" and is giving every sign that he will be the same again once his leg is healed.
 
How heartbreaking! I think that if you can possibly get him Xrayed it would finally rule out a physical problem.

I was hacking with a friend yesterday who used to work for a dealer. She was talking about a mare they had in for resale which was perfect most of the time but sometimes would just leap in the air and then turn herself inside out. After it was sold it was found that the mare had a growth on her spine. Most of the time it wouldnt hurt at all, but certain movements by the rider would make it excrutiatingly painful. The chiro and physio failed to pick it up as it depended on them pressing in a certain way, in a certain direction.

Obviously I absolutely understand why you might not want to/be able to spend any more money on the horse but if you can it would be worth trying. Have you talked to Bell Equine? I think you said you were E Sussex/Kent. I think they even have an MRI scanner there.
 
OH's former dressage horse sounds almost identical.

He would without warning buck like a rodeo pony until OH fell off or he would eventually stop of his own accord. He was incredibley sharp and OH fell off at least once a week.

Vets and physios could not pinpoint any major issues and just put it down to tension - but he was never truly through or over his back.

However he moved beautifully and despite being VERY quirky he went on to win the National Elementary championship in 2000.

Shortly after he displayed wobbler type symptoms and rapidly deteriorated. As the disease progressed he became more uncordinated and unbalanced till eventually he was PTS.

They had to pay for a post-mortem to establish the cause which is when it was discovered that his spinal colum had disintegrated. They believe that it had started at the base near the tail and the displays of bucking were pain as the nerve endings died.

He had passed a 5 stage vetting and no one had a clue what was going on untilt they opened him up for the autopsy. It was so rare a case that it was written about in the vet's journal and vets from America came over to look at the findings.

We have no idea what casued it and have never heard of another case but it could be that your chap has something similar?

The vets involved were Bell Equine and they will without doubt remember our case. It might be worth a call?
 
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I know someone who had a horse a bit like this once, a great big black horse by Dutch Gold....after months of persevering with him, sending him to professionals and having all the necessary back/physical checks, they decided he was 'screwy'. They rang up a no-questions-asked dealer, sold him for no more than meat money, and he was taken away in a cattle truck
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The owner (and the horse) should have been shot, and so should other people passing off horses on a no questions asked basis. It is unethical and inhumane.

I am sorry for OP and anybody ending up in this situation, but you must do the right thing, and that doesn't include the option of selling him.
 
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OH's former dressage horse sounds almost identical.

He would without warning buck like a rodeo pony until OH fell off or he would eventually stop of his own accord. He was incredibley sharp and OH fell off at least once a week.

Vets and physios could not pinpoint any major issues and just put it down to tension - but he was never truly through or over his back.

However he moved beautifully and despite being VERY quirky he went on to win the National Elementary championship in 2000.

Shortly after he displayed wobbler type symptoms and rapidly deteriorated. As the disease progressed he became more uncordinated and unbalanced till eventually he was PTS.

They had to pay for a post-mortem to establish the cause which is when it was discovered that his spinal colum had disintegrated. They believe that it had started at the base near the tail and the displays of bucking were pain as the nerve endings died.

He had passed a 5 stage vetting and no one had a clue what was going on untilt they opened him up for the autopsy. It was so rare a case that it was written about in the vet's journal and vets from America came over to look at the findings.

We have no idea what casued it and have never heard of another case but it could be that your chap has something similar?

The vets involved were Bell Equine and they will without doubt remember our case. It might be worth a call?

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This sounds quite similar to the horse i was speaking of. He was found to have spinal arthritis amongst other things and is also no longer with us. He was only 5yrs old and also passed a 5 stage vetting. Also declared healthy over a space of a year by saddlers, vets, behaviourists, chiropractors, back people etc etc. It was only discovered because the owner pushed for scans.
 
you have appeared to have tried everything, this looks like a long term behavoral problem. in ireland they would not have left him to 6 to break if there wasn't a reason. can you contact his previous owners they should be on the pass port? they might give you more of a clue. but i think it might be time to cut you loses, losing money is not fun but if he is willing to jump a fence and then it appears with no provocation break a leg then he is to unpredictable for most people and your third party insurance would not pay as this is normal behavour for him.

on another thought, is a rig? he is the alpha in any situation you put him in, have you had a hormone test?
 
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[ QUOTE ]
I know someone who had a horse a bit like this once, a great big black horse by Dutch Gold....after months of persevering with him, sending him to professionals and having all the necessary back/physical checks, they decided he was 'screwy'. They rang up a no-questions-asked dealer, sold him for no more than meat money, and he was taken away in a cattle truck
frown.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

The owner (and the horse) should have been shot, and so should other people passing off horses on a no questions asked basis. It is unethical and inhumane.



[/ QUOTE ]

I quite agree. They were liveries at our yard at the time, and needless to say they did not stay much longer
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You have gone into great detail to explain your horses situation to us on HHO, we all agree it is such a shame, but money is money and would you continue down this line if the horse in question was £1000, you need to be thankful that you still have your own life intact, and this is what is precious and so important. I feel having seen and ridden horses like this that you only have one more obligation left that you owe to the horse, that is PTS. You have desribed the broncing episodes in leading your horse to/from the field, this is NOT pain related I feel it is definately neurological mental disorder and incurable and extremely dangerous. The danger lurks in the horse having no set circumstances in when it could happen. As far as Im concerned the said horse does not even know when it will happen, as it is not in control of its own behaviour, acting insanely and dangerously. Horses in pain tend not to bronc and turn themselves inside out, as it would cause more pain for them, rodeo riders know this, a horse feeling unwell or in pain will not bronc properly. Please do the right thing for you and your horse, and make sure nobody else has to get hurt.
 
Sorry, he came over as a 5year old that had been "sat on". Was a little suspicious but I knew the guys that bought him over and apart from being slightly "athletic" he soon settled into riden work (they took him right back to the beginning and re-broke to ensure it was done properly). They have been very helpful throughout my problems and had no idea that the athletic slightly sensitive horse would end up broncing for England.

Don't worry, he won't get "palmed" off onto someone. I will not be part exchanging him with a dealer as I think he will a) kill someone unsuspecting and b) he is too nice a horse to be pushed from one dealer to the next.
My first action is to speak to the vet when she goes to the yard to change the dressing on his wound and see if there is any possiblity for a scan (they refer to Bell Equine and Liphook) and if not I will investigate Richard Maxwell or Michael Pearce. It sounds like they are sensible and honest and if they draw a blank then Horsey Heaven it will be. I always thought he had more scope and talent than I needed, but I never thought he would be anything other than a bit "forward".

Thank you - does anyone have contact details for Michael Pearce?
 
My friend had a horse that was a bit tricky to mount. He didn't buck but used to nearly drop to the floor. He had loads of tests (I don't know which) and was just labelled as cold backed.

One day they were just putting the saddle on him when he reared up, went over backwards, broke his neck and died instantly (he had never done anything like this before). His owner had a PM done and it turned out that he had an old injury to his wither (probably broken in in the past) an that's what would have caused all his problems. It was only that he had a saintly nature that they had managed to do anything with him for all that time.

If there are any more tests that you could do, I would do them. They didn't think there was anything physically worng with my friends horse and there really was.
 
This sounds very similar to our lad that we bought last year. He was a pain to mount it could take hours or just not happen at all. We sent him away and he came back heaps better but the rejection changed from not being mounted to bronking to get the rider off.

He would just suddnely with no warning bronk and bolt and no one had a chance of staying on.

He was seen by the ususal. Physio, chiro, farrier dentist and eventually the vet. The vet announced him sound with no problems but we pushed for a back xray.

The poor lad had kissing spines and ended up with the op. He is now after 8 months of rehab being hacked out happily.

He does 'remember ' the pain though and will occasionally look as though he is about to do his usualu bolt and bronk but after a bit of gentle reassurance he is happy to carry on. He does have issues with the school when being ridden and will bolt and bronk you off but I think this is just memory related.

I would definatly get his back xrayed. Our lad was only 6 and lighlty backed too. Hope this helps.
 
I won't go over the old ground but I agree that the horse has a reason for what he is doing - that's just how horses work. WHAT the reason is and how possible it may be to discover it, let alone find a solution, is a pretty serious question in a case like this, as you have tried most of the obvious courses of action.

Just a short list of the physical problems I've seen cause "behavioural" ramifications:

spinal arthritis/injury (I'd say this is even more common than people think)

kidney disease - congenital but horse wasn't obviously ill until it was almost 10 and up to that point was a successful if unpredictable showjumper

liver failure

neurological disease - in one case a brain tumour

In addition, of course, to all manner of injuries etc that seemed apparently unrelated to the behavioural "clues" but were retroactively implicated either because the problem progressed or because changing the situation changed the horse's behaviour.

The "dirty little secret of diagnosis" as one vet put it to me, is that we are still very limited in what we can discover about the inner workings of horses, especially if the problem is above the hocks/elbows and doesn't affect locomotive structures. One horse I knew seemed to have something wrong with his ribs/surrounding structures which only affected him intermittently but nothing obvious was found (although there was palpable scar tissue eventually) and the vets at the time basically said we might find it by fluke if we got just the right test/view but then again we could look forever and never find it if we didn't. I've had similar conversations since then with some of the more realistic vets - often the most talented diagnosticians - I've known.

Soooo . . . yes, I'd keep looking if possible. But I wouldn't necessarily assume even if there is something to find that it will come to light eventually. Life is, alas, still full of mysteries.

Re: sending a horse to a behaviourist/"problem" trainer/whatever we're calling ourselves these days. First, I'm sure you're aware that a good person will likely make improvements even if the underlying issue is physical, progressive and untreatable. At least some of the "management practices" that allow people to handle and ride previously difficult horses even unconsciously address physical issues. (A quick example would be a more comfortable saddle or regular use of a mounting block to make a horse with a chronic back condition more comfortable - it's not cured, it's managed but to all intents and purposed the horse is "fixed".)

I can say this with certainty because I've seen it and done it. A compromised horse CAN improve, the question is for what use and how long. (And at least once I've been very sorry because I know for sure it allowed someone to knowingly sell a horse with a serious physical problem without disclosing it.)

What I would "use" someone like that for is as another source of information. They will have seem hundreds, possibly thousands of horses with problems and might very well be able to offer you more insight into the situation, possibly even a more specific area to investigate. Successful problem horse trainers are often very, very good diagnosticians - they are obviously highly motivated! - even if they don't always know what they are processing in the moment. Such a trainer might even be able to sort the horse and provide you with a system to such a degree that the horse becomes usable for you again. Or not - obviously a reputable one will have an honest conversation with you about his/her findings.

I'm sure you know all this and we're just going over stuff you've already thought about. This is a tough conversation. I went through it once with a horse I owned and I've had it many, many times with other people, with various and individual outcomes.

In the end, unfortunately, it comes down to what you can bear - financially, emotionally, practically. In my own case the horse was showing successfully and I had a management system in place for him but twice in quick succession other people disregarded my instructions (there is nothing more attractive for some people than a "difficult" horse) and one of them got quite seriously hurt. I chose to have the horse pts because however much I could cope with him I couldn't assure I would only ever be the only person at risk. I learned a great deal from that horse and part of what I learned was where to draw the line.

Good luck.
 
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