What to do with this horse?

[Bens_Mum]

Forgive the post overload. For those who haven't seen it already...

TB 10 year old ex PTP finished racing spring this year apparently didn't want to race anymore.

Had horse some 5 months now started off hacking some gentle schooling.

Horse came very poor was checked by vet, physio etc all fine. Horse had small lump on back all said should be fine.

Horse was very well behaved initially no issues at all. Over the last month or so has become more and more naughty first napping then, feeling like an unexploded bomb out hacking finally bronking. Horse doesn't want to be mounted more and more and has classic symptoms of KS.

At first I thought it could be behavioral due to getting fit etc but it is classic KS. Spoke to vet and arranged back x-ray. Went back to physio who is now saying the horse is lame behind on one hind too and that they also think its KS.

Horse is 10 years old and huge. Sweet chap but windsucks and weaves too.

People on the yard are telling me PTS as are trainer, family and friends. I don't want to just move the horse on and its no value. X-rays are booked but now the physio is saying it should have hind lameness work up too and scoping for ulcers.

WWYD? Its not all about money although its a consideration obviously?

 

[Merlod]

Ignore the stupid physio, they aren't qualified to diagnose. Have the xrays and then discuss your options with your VET once you know the results.

 

[MrsMozart]

Definitely discussion time with your vet. I'd say xrays at least to know what the situation is, then work from that. I've known a couple of horses come through KS surgery and gone on to have decent ridden careers.

 

[Bernster]

Agree with the above posters re vet. And if you're not on it, join the FB page horses with kissing spine. There are lots of options and he could well be treatable and have a good future, although tbh it's not an easy path and takes a lot of commitment and often a fair amount of money I'm afraid. Is retirement an option if you can keep him field sound?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

What do you want from the horse in the end? What are you aiming for?

 

[Bens_Mum]

Retiring it isn't really an option its not easy to handle and no one is going to have it as a companion its far too big and sharp. The original plan was it was supposed to be an all rounder and to potentially hunt/ fun rides. Research into its past though since suggests hunting/ fun rides would not be a good idea. Others have tired! He was very good when he first came but obviously its hard to tell now what was the 'real' horse. Was he poor now feels better or is he now in pain becasue of starting to work correctly.

Physio just worried me a lot as no one has ever said it was lame behind too not my instructor or anyone so I was beginning to wonder how many issues it has.

Will look at that group on FB thank you.

 

[be positive]

You need to decide how far to go financially and have a frank discussion with your vet before he takes the xrays, I agree with the physio that back xrays in isolation are unlikely to give you the full picture of what is going on and that there is little point in doing back xrays without some form of workup to "prove" where the issue is, he may have KS but they may not be the primary issue, you could operate only to find that he is bilaterally lame behind due to something else and that was the primary problem that caused the KS to develop.

I would not think about scoping for ulcers until either everything else is found or nothing else is found as again there is no point in treating them, if he has them, without finding the pain that is probably causing them.

If you decide not to take a full view then you must be prepared to pts if the finances go past whatever you decide to spend, it is very easy to think "just another set of xrays" or "just another vets visit" but they all add up and just getting a diagnosis can cost thousands if it is not the first place that they look at that shows exactly what is going on, it is not fair to pass him on, he has already been passed on quickly once, or take a different route and turn him away for 6-12 months and see what nature does.

 

[Bens_Mum]

You need to decide how far to go financially and have a frank discussion with your vet before he takes the xrays, I agree with the physio that back xrays in isolation are unlikely to give you the full picture of what is going on and that there is little point in doing back xrays without some form of workup to "prove" where the issue is, he may have KS but they may not be the primary issue, you could operate only to find that he is bilaterally lame behind due to something else and that was the primary problem that caused the KS to develop.

I would not think about scoping for ulcers until either everything else is found or nothing else is found as again there is no point in treating them, if he has them, without finding the pain that is probably causing them.

If you decide not to take a full view then you must be prepared to pts if the finances go past whatever you decide to spend, it is very easy to think "just another set of xrays" or "just another vets visit" but they all add up and just getting a diagnosis can cost thousands if it is not the first place that they look at that shows exactly what is going on, it is not fair to pass him on, he has already been passed on quickly once, or take a different route and turn him away for 6-12 months and see what nature does.

That's my feeling i'm not passing him round he's had three homes this year already. I am not really sure where the line should be. I don't think he would do well with surgery or the rehab he won't be in alone and our stables are open so he will be climbing out. Vet mentioned possible cortisone jabs too. I am already into £300 on Thursday.
The main issue is its dangerous and i'm not getting back on it unless i'm convinced somethings changed. My trainer won't and neither with the girl on the yard so we have an issue there too. I've young kids so I have to be careful.

 

[Bernster]

Agree with bp and sadly there are often other issues involved with ks, some are the main cause others not. Ks can cause a horse to show up lame due to its impact on their way of going. Steroids are in some ways an easier and cheaper fix but tbh the experiences on that FB group would tend to point towards surgery for a better chance of a longer term fix.

It takes a lot out of you in many ways, but only you can assess what you can and can't manage dep on your circs. Sad times.

 

[be positive]

That's my feeling i'm not passing him round he's had three homes this year already. I am not really sure where the line should be. I don't think he would do well with surgery or the rehab he won't be in alone and our stables are open so he will be climbing out. Vet mentioned possible cortisone jabs too. I am already into £300 on Thursday.
The main issue is its dangerous and i'm not getting back on it unless i'm convinced somethings changed. My trainer won't and neither with the girl on the yard so we have an issue there too. I've young kids so I have to be careful.

If you cannot do the rehab required for whatever reason then you need to draw a clear line which from this post sounds clear enough no one is prepared to ride him, you have a yard that doesn't suit him for resting and are already calling him "it" which sounds as if you are removing yourself away from him emotionally.
I am not sure I would even get the xrays done if I could not commit to treating him, it may be kinder to call it a day if anything shows that requires some treatment, if nothing shows you are still stuck with a horse you don't like, don't want and other than to make sure he is not passed on you don't really "owe" him anything, it is not as if he has been with you for years and you are emotionally invested in him.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

It doesn't really sound like you're going to be able to rehab him to do the job that you want, does it? And keeping a big, sharp, windsucking, weaving, possibly permanently unsound paddock ornament doesn't sound very fair on you. Sorry OP, that does sound like you've got some tough decisions ahead.

You're totally right regarding your safety, that has to be priority.

 

[rowan666]

TBH if your questioning what what kind of use he will have even if you got to the bottom of it and treat it, as you say no use as hunter/hacker and no use a companion then I would honestly cut my losses and PTS, you could do x rays, scopes, lameness work ups etc and find he is easily treated but then what? What will you do with him once he's healthy if he's not suitable for what you want? If I remember rightly you said on the other post that you aren't insured so if you are going to start investigations you could soon find that cost spiral out of control looking for problems that may or may not even be there. At the end of the day it really does depend how much this horse means to you and how much you are willing to invest in trying to fix him

 

[Bens_Mum]

If you cannot do the rehab required for whatever reason then you need to draw a clear line which from this post sounds clear enough no one is prepared to ride him, you have a yard that doesn't suit him for resting and are already calling him "it" which sounds as if you are removing yourself away from him emotionally.
I am not sure I would even get the xrays done if I could not commit to treating him, it may be kinder to call it a day if anything shows that requires some treatment, if nothing shows you are still stuck with a horse you don't like, don't want and other than to make sure he is not passed on you don't really "owe" him anything, it is not as if he has been with you for years and you are emotionally invested in him.

Just spoke to the vet again and they are saying its going to be £200 on top to look at the leg so now £500. I am trying to detach a bit you are right because I lost the horse of a lifetime in June and i'm still getting over that the idea of having a second one PTS so quick is horrific to be honest.
I will speak to YO and see if they can accommodate him and what she thinks. Its all so sad hes a sweet boy but I thought by having him checked out on purchase that he was sound this is all a bit of a shock to be honest.
I have joined the FB group I will post there and see what they say from what has happened so far. I am fond of him and its very sad but hes not easy when turned out and on full livery so YO would have to be able to help a lot with this too if it goes down the route of surgery etc. I will speak to her again today and see what she thinks.

 

[ester]

I don't understand why your physio seems to have not said anything to you about this horse before and when you question them on it they then start saying yes it needs xraying for KS and a full work up behind and scoping!?

Given you potentially won't be able to rehab anyway the conclusions from Thursday will be that he has KS, you can try cortisone injections and see if it makes a difference but it might not. He doesn't have KS and you have to go looking elsewhere. In addition he may have ulcers that will cost to treat.
I think you need to consider how much money you are happy to spend even if it doesn't get you anywhere and stick to that.

Have you tried what ycbm suggested on the last post re. the ranitidine (iirc!)?

Arguably the diagnostics might make you feel happier about PTS as you will then know that his issues might not be easily fixed (if KS say)

 

[Bens_Mum]

I don't understand why your physio seems to have not said anything to you about this horse before and when you question them on it they then start saying yes it needs xraying for KS and a full work up behind and scoping!?

Given you potentially won't be able to rehab anyway the conclusions from Thursday will be that he has KS, you can try cortisone injections and see if it makes a difference but it might not. He doesn't have KS and you have to go looking elsewhere. In addition he may have ulcers that will cost to treat.
I think you need to consider how much money you are happy to spend even if it doesn't get you anywhere and stick to that.

Have you tried what ycbm suggested on the last post re. the ranitidine (iirc!)?

Arguably the diagnostics might make you feel happier about PTS as you will then know that his issues might not be easily fixed (if KS say)

I don't either i'm livid as I've spent £100 on a couple of sessions as I wanted to be sure all was okay. It only came out when I asked them about did they think it could have KS?! I checked with my friend who was there and lameness was never mentioned at all.

I have got the ranitidine i'm trying today and tomorrow to see what happens there I will keep you posted thank you I picked some up today.

I think maybe that's it I need to know whats wrong for my own sanity.

 

[paddi22]

I have two with kissing spine, both got injections and are in work. One is still a very tricky quirky horse though and if i had a young family i wouldn't be riding him. If i was in your boat, (knowing the cost and work i went through with my lad) I'd pts. Even if the injections work they need to be kept in constant correct work and have good physio treatment when they get stiff, they are expensive horses to keep going, and mine will never be a fun ride horse.

Being honest, the horse, even if the treatment works, isn't probably going to be the kind of safe fun horse you need with a young family. Some horses are born unlucky and even with all the vare and attention pumped into them will never come right, they just have too many issues. I'd pts, but like you, id get the xrays just to sink into my head that there was an issue and stop the wondering. Pick an amount of money you can spend and draw a line.

 

[be positive]

I don't either i'm livid as I've spent £100 on a couple of sessions as I wanted to be sure all was okay. It only came out when I asked them about did they think it could have KS?! I checked with my friend who was there and lameness was never mentioned at all.

I have got the ranitidine i'm trying today and tomorrow to see what happens there I will keep you posted thank you I picked some up today.

I think maybe that's it I need to know whats wrong for my own sanity.

Your physio may be of the similar school of thought to one I know who feels that the majority of ex racehorses, and racehorses in training, will not be 100% sound and that physio can help manage them to be functional, it may not be right but if the horse is willing, seems happy in it's work and some physio can allow them to remain that way then it has to be better than nothing, the problem is when you start investigating there may be so much wrong the horse has no future.

Your horse is not happy and willing to work so is beyond a physio session or two to keep him performing, I have an exracehorse here who is a bit of a crock but loves to work, gets placed in dressage with good marks for his paces as well as enjoying jumping, he gets physio when he starts to get a bit tight and grumpy, his owner has no need to look into it further and has decided that if he does start to go lame that only a certain amount of investigation would be done, when he was in training he had most of his joints injected so we do have a history to work with if required.

 

[scats]

I'd continue with the X-Ray's, for your own piece of mind. Has the vet watched horse trot up or just physio? Could you discuss the physio's thoughts with the vet when they come to xray and ask vets opinion on horses soundness before you do the X-Ray's?

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Ignore the stupid physio, they aren't qualified to diagnose. Have the xrays and then discuss your options with your VET once you know the results.

This.

Xrays then discuss with vets

To be honest once you have found his problems then I would pts if it's as bad as you and we think.

Worse things for any animal than being put to sleep in a place of safety

 

[Bens_Mum]

Horse when it first came was looked over by the vet and wasn't lame that I know of. First physio session was fine too no real soreness anywhere horse was fine to mount etc. In the interim hes been worked properly and started to build top line which appears to have caused the problem. He was sore three weeks ago when she came. Now started biting at girthing and even brushing - not in his nature and getting on is a long drawn out process.

Horse originally had a calcified lump to the spine apparently from half tree saddle- checked by vet and physio no soreness. Physio thinks that the change in the way of going could have upset this? I am heavier than a jokey i'm about 10 1/2 stone so maybe that makes a difference? My instructor who I have lessons with at least twice a week has never commented on any lameness.

 

[be positive]

Horse when it first came was looked over by the vet and wasn't lame that I know of. First physio session was fine too no real soreness anywhere horse was fine to mount etc. In the interim hes been worked properly and started to build top line which appears to have caused the problem. He was sore three weeks ago when she came. Now started biting at girthing and even brushing - not in his nature and getting on is a long drawn out process.

Horse originally had a calcified lump to the spine apparently from half tree saddle- checked by vet and physio no soreness. Physio thinks that the change in the way of going could have upset this? I am heavier than a jokey i'm about 10 1/2 stone so maybe that makes a difference? My instructor who I have lessons with at least twice a week has never commented on any lameness.

I don't think your weight will have made any difference, he is an ex pointer so is likely to have carried a decent weight for most of his exercise, stable staff will be light but not generally limited to under 10 stone on most NH yards and many are far heavier, carried up to 12 stone racing it is not the same as a flat horse that has been ridden by tiny jockeys.

Building up his topline and changing his way of going may have contributed to any discomfort, it could be many things or a combination of several.

 

[Dougal9]

Scope for ulcers definitely ...

 

[GirlFriday]

Or if you're tight with money you can treat for them without the scope (ask vet about this).

You need to have a joined up set of professionals. If you can get trainer/vet/physio to talk to each other that might help get clearer message for you (after whatever diagnostics obviously)

 

[GirlFriday]

Personally if I could afford a horse it would be mine for life as long as it had a decent quality of life if managed appropriately (possibly 24/7 grass livery type thing in this instance...I've known some very happy retired NH horses living out almost feral).

Once you're in a horsey community as an owner/sharer/whatever then you can nearly always get something nice to ride by share/loan/whatever if yours isn't in work.

Obviously not everyone feels that way and, at the end of the day, you probably eat plenty of non-equine animals without any qualms about the loss of life so it is entirely logically consistent to decide that you don't beleive buying a horse is a commitment to keeping it. Because they are more expensive a lot of people don't extend the 'a dog is for life' type of view to horses. It is a personal decision for you to come to.

 

[Bens_Mum]

The problem with him is that hes not happy doing nothing hes been off a week and is even more stressy he weaves, cribs and box walks on a normal day. Hes very fine and not happy to live out but causes chaos for those who are turning him out when the mood takes, rearing and thrashing out hes 17 hands. To keep condition on him he requires a lot of feed and being in at nights. He has to be on full livery as if hes not first he goes mad. Also I have young kids so can't handle him with them around. Its nothing that can't be managed but none of this is helping his case.

The latest is physio says its in her opinion both back legs and KS she has spoken with the vet. She says in addition ulcers but probably secondary. All feel back xrays alone are pointless now its £500 to see what is going on in back and back legs. YO feels the back end of him is looking worse now its colder.

I have to decide what to do today and my head is spinning.

 

[Bens_Mum]

I should add he has horrible feet and is prone to abscesses so must have shoes on too.

 

[cundlegreen]

The problem with him is that hes not happy doing nothing hes been off a week and is even more stressy he weaves, cribs and box walks on a normal day. Hes very fine and not happy to live out but causes chaos for those who are turning him out when the mood takes, rearing and thrashing out hes 17 hands. To keep condition on him he requires a lot of feed and being in at nights. He has to be on full livery as if hes not first he goes mad. Also I have young kids so can't handle him with them around. Its nothing that can't be managed but none of this is helping his case.

The latest is physio says its in her opinion both back legs and KS she has spoken with the vet. She says in addition ulcers but probably secondary. All feel back xrays alone are pointless now its £500 to see what is going on in back and back legs. YO feels the back end of him is looking worse now its colder.

I have to decide what to do today and my head is spinning.

I feel for you, and family has to take priority. If he's behaving in this fashion, then he must have serious pain issues. Ok, you can throw a lot of money at him, but he'll still have to be carefully managed, and will not be suitable to pass on. To me, it's a no brainer. He's not happy and neither are you. Do him a favour, as unpleasant as it may seem. I'm sure lots on here will have a fit over my post!

 

[ozpoz]

I agree with Cundlegreen. Agonising for you, but it sounds as if he is not at all happy.

 

[Bens_Mum]

I agree with Cundlegreen. Agonising for you, but it sounds as if he is not at all happy.

I'm starting to think this now to be honest. Obviously i'm very fond of him but its a nightmare working it all out and quite likely that after £500 it will be PTS anyway because I won't operate on him he would be insane in the box.

 

[Equi]

I think you know what you want to do. At the end of the day a 17hh ex race horse with issues is not going to sell to anyone and we have a duty of care to horses as far as possible - that does NOT include keeping an unhappy hard to keep horse as a pet because it's not "dying" of something.

Don't let people get in your head about the ethics of it.

If you don't think this horse has a happy future, make sure he doesn't have an unhappy present. There's much worse things in life than death.