What triggers requiring planning permission if wanting to make a track across a field?

[mudder]

I know that officially putting down hardcore would require PP.

On the other hand people have been saying on here that mud control mats and other temporary type of tracks would not.

With the pedantry if planners I wonder would you really be safe from them if they saw such mats forming a vehicle track? Could they not just claim it 'negatively affects the landscape' and get you on that?

I ask because the mats are obscenely expensive. Not taking away from their possible efficacy but I would only choose them to circumvent the need to go the PP route and if indeed one may still get caught by it then there seems little point in paying 5x the price or so for these over standard hardcore.

I also am not keen on the idea of using a lot of none biodegradeable product. Feels icky to me. I get that plastic being none degradeable is both its biggest strength and its biggest evil. I try to use it as little as a I can though and this would be a rather large material investment in it.

If the PP was a cert then it could well be worth the compromise.

I did get to thinking though this morning, could I not make a more 'green' diy track which would do the same as the mats for probably considerably cheaper by buying a load of planks and some chicken wire or similar wire mesh for grip?

I will note it would be a none 4x4 vehicle so that must be taken into consideration.

The critical question in either case is what would constitute as a track requiring PP. Looking at the extreme, surely they could not claim that driving through a field via the same path on a consistent basis on a 4x4 which forms ruts and a track could not classify as one. So where is the boundary? How is the distinction made?

Is it the act of 'engineering' which I seem to have read. So what would classify as such? Would you be safe from their wrath so long as you didn't alter the landscape? So mud mats or planks or whatever else you simply lay on top would both fall outside this? What about the above mentioned clause they could get you with of the landscape being altered?

 

[SEL]

Mud control mats can take heavy vehicles. The grass grows through them after year 2 so they don't change the look of the landscape and they can be easily lifted so define as temporary.

 

[mudder]

I will add that the track would only be for light vehicle use, not animals.

 

[mudder]

Mud control mats can take heavy vehicles. The grass grows through them after year 2 so they don't change the look of the landscape and they can be easily lifted so define as temporary.

Ok so anything classed as temporary would be safe?

Wood planks could do the same then? Not saying they would work as well but would be cheap enough to do a little experiment with them and could easily find a use for the planks for something else if not.

 

[mudder]

What about if you scrape back the grass to level it out? Does that then make it 'development'?

 

[mudder]

Wow I just looked up scaffolding boards and it works out £33 just for 0.48m2!!! So even more expensive than mud control mats!

 

[SEL]

What about if you scrape back the grass to level it out? Does that then make it 'development'?

I'm not sure but I always think once you get machinery out it's a higher risk. It also depends on how petty your local planning officers are

 

[PurBee]

Regarding planks and chicken wire for grip - i didn’t use this anywhere where horses accessed, but had them for wheelbarrow access in my agri plot part.
Despite buying nearly new thick scaffold planks and doubling the wire, the planks - through being constantly soaked by laying on pretty much in my climate, perpetually wet soil/ground, caused them to weaken and rot within say 4-5yrs.
If horses/vehicles had been over them i imagine they’d have cracked and failed much quicker, as heavier weight will push them into soil.
The chicken wire also didnt hold up to human foot traffic and wheelbarrows, as the galvanising rubs off quite easily, it then rusts, and snaps in all kinds of places. That would create trip hazard, possible wire injury if used for animals.

Regarding pp for tracks, an ecological environmental point to put forward is that with the unpredictable climate of this modern era, all-season productive access to and through/around fields via hardcore tracks for agricultural/horticultural/animal/tractor use, alleviates damage to soil structure maintaining stability and continued future feasibility of the lands use for agri/horticultural or equine purposes.
Tracks would enable the extended productive use of the lands, increasing it’s potential eco-diversity due to all season access, thus increasing it’s sustainability.
Express the point that aside from the main purpose of your use for them, that any and all agri uses of land in the future would benefit from having stable access to prevent damage to lands and soil structure.

(Building and maintaining healthy soil structure is a big thing being recognised moreso in agri depts now)

(I wouldnt put forward such an argument for an overgrazed small equine acreage though unless i was to also add to the planning application intentions for planting mixed species hedgerows/trees/re-sowing mixed grasses…and any other potential eco-diversity plans you’d like to include, at some point in the future. Pond for wildlife increase etc. convert to organic is another green filled box in agri-bods eyes…..they’ve got government eco-stats to maintain )

Re ‘green’ tracks - many calcium based hardcores will eventually ‘green-up’ with self-seeded grasses from fields. They eventually blend in with the green fields. Except they’re firm underfoot for all types of traffic. If there was a lot of animal and vehicle use daily using the tracks that would prevent such a mass greening, but it would still happen where the tyre tread doesnt go, and animals tend to walk the same route down a track, so wouldnt prevent grass self-seeding on the majority of the track.
If you had a herd 10+ using it then self-greening likely wouldn’t happen as theyd be much more footfall/wear preventing self-seeding being successful.

 

[Abacus]

This isn’t a reply about PP, but there is a healthy second hand market for mud control mats (there’s a FB group dedicated to this) so if you were actually told to take them up, you could resell them for almost the new price. You’d lose the delivery cost and effort involved. Personally I know a lot of people who have them and haven’t had any complaints.

 

[mudder]

Regarding planks and chicken wire for grip - i didn’t use this anywhere where horses accessed, but had them for wheelbarrow access in my agri plot part.
Despite buying nearly new thick scaffold planks and doubling the wire, the planks - through being constantly soaked by laying on pretty much in my climate, perpetually wet soil/ground, caused them to weaken and rot within say 4-5yrs.
If horses/vehicles had been over them i imagine they’d have cracked and failed much quicker, as heavier weight will push them into soil.
The chicken wire also didnt hold up to human foot traffic and wheelbarrows, as the galvanising rubs off quite easily, it then rusts, and snaps in all kinds of places. That would create trip hazard, possible wire injury if used for animals.

Regarding pp for tracks, an ecological environmental point to put forward is that with the unpredictable climate of this modern era, all-season productive access to and through/around fields via hardcore tracks for agricultural/horticultural/animal/tractor use, alleviates damage to soil structure maintaining stability and continued future feasibility of the lands use for agri/horticultural or equine purposes.
Tracks would enable the extended productive use of the lands, increasing it’s potential eco-diversity due to all season access, thus increasing it’s sustainability.
Express the point that aside from the main purpose of your use for them, that any and all agri uses of land in the future would benefit from having stable access to prevent damage to lands and soil structure.

(Building and maintaining healthy soil structure is a big thing being recognised moreso in agri depts now)

(I wouldnt put forward such an argument for an overgrazed small equine acreage though unless i was to also add to the planning application intentions for planting mixed species hedgerows/trees/re-sowing mixed grasses…and any other potential eco-diversity plans you’d like to include, at some point in the future. Pond for wildlife increase etc. convert to organic is another green filled box in agri-bods eyes…..they’ve got government eco-stats to maintain )

Re ‘green’ tracks - many calcium based hardcores will eventually ‘green-up’ with self-seeded grasses from fields. They eventually blend in with the green fields. Except they’re firm underfoot for all types of traffic. If there was a lot of animal and vehicle use daily using the tracks that would prevent such a mass greening, but it would still happen where the tyre tread doesnt go, and animals tend to walk the same route down a track, so wouldnt prevent grass self-seeding on the majority of the track.
If you had a herd 10+ using it then self-greening likely wouldn’t happen as theyd be much more footfall/wear preventing self-seeding being successful.

What I meant by green was eco-friendly not literally green as in grass coming through.

I suppose my question is two-fold. The PP question of using 'temporary' tracks and the other question of if there is a feasible way to DIY a temporary track for cheaper than mud control mats and ideally using 'green' as in degradeable material. If the latter is a sure 'no' I will feel happier knowing that I examined other options before plucking out the wallet for the premium product.

Is wood chip not going to work for a vehicle track? I know they are popular for footways but would vehicles be too demanding? Would it soon get spun up and down to mud again or could it work? That is fairly cheap and rots away harmlessly. I don't mind if they had to be renewed even every year if it was not that expensive.

 

[mudder]

This isn’t a reply about PP, but there is a healthy second hand market for mud control mats (there’s a FB group dedicated to this) so if you were actually told to take them up, you could resell them for almost the new price. You’d lose the delivery cost and effort involved. Personally I know a lot of people who have them and haven’t had any complaints.

Oh yes there seems no shortage of shining reviews having been looking since yesterday when I was recommended them. Just looking at all other avenues first to make an informed decision.

 

[PurBee]

What I meant by green was eco-friendly not literally green as in grass coming through.

I suppose my question is two-fold. The PP question of using 'temporary' tracks and the other question of if there is a feasible way to DIY a temporary track for cheaper than mud control mats and ideally using 'green' as in degradeable material. If the latter is a sure 'no' I will feel happier knowing that I examined other options before plucking out the wallet for the premium product.

Is wood chip not going to work for a vehicle track? I know they are popular for footways but would vehicles be too demanding? Would it soon get spun up and down to mud again or could it work? That is fairly cheap and rots away harmlessly. I don't mind if they had to be renewed even every year if it was not that expensive.

Yes, i understood your green reference, i was just extending it to also suggest they literally also do ‘green-up’! An added advantage of using a material that’s plant friendly. Helps them not be so much of an eye-sore, if they would be considered to be one by some planners perhaps.

Im not sure wood chip would be of use. It’s dependent on size and type of chip, but laid on grass would likely just be ground into the soil after a few passes, and be horrid in wetter weather.
I used it to cover shallow top dry topsoil area on a slope, well draining, under a tree, and it still, with just minimal horse use, had rotted down into a sloppy mess quite quickly.

I explored all types of track options and the 2 viable contenders for my wet prone soil were hardcore or mudmats. Everything else was lacking longevity, or strength/safety for my horse use and lightweight tractor use.

As you want it just for a light car - IF where you are driving on doesn’t get too boggy and too muddy, there’s ‘car park grass matting’ - it comes in 2 metre wide rolls, and there’s 2 grades lightweight and heavyweight.
There’s a few companies selling this style of grass matting for vehicles. But i’d not use it for boggy areas as it will then move under the wheels. It has strength to prevent ruts into normal soils, but wet-prone soils likely would cause over time the matting to mis-shapen. There are wire pins to pin it down. Animal use recommends plastic pins.
It’s expensive from retail uk companies. I found the chinese supplier they buy it from in bulk and it was a much cheaper price including shipping/import charges.

I dont know the comparison price to mid mats as it was a while ago i did the comparisons, but this was a fair bit cheaper, especially bought direct from the chinese manufacturer.

GrassProtecta heavy-duty PU grass reinforcement mesh | Groundtrax Systems

GrassProtecta heavy-duty polyethylene mesh reinforces grassed surfaces prone to wear and smearing, eg permanent car parking and heavily-used pedestrian areas. The oscillated mesh structure provides greater traction and significantly higher slip resistance when compared with standard mesh...

www.externalworksindex.co.uk

 

[PurBee]

P.s - someone on another thread a while ago now had said the grass matting was slippy for their horse. It was at a show carpark i think they said they experienced it. They said they didnt like it due to that. I dont know/ cant recall if their horse was shod. Just something to consider if thinking of horse use too.

 

[mudder]

Yes, i understood your green reference, i was just extending it to also suggest they literally also do ‘green-up’! An added advantage of using a material that’s plant friendly. Helps them not be so much of an eye-sore, if they would be considered to be one by some planners perhaps.

Im not sure wood chip would be of use. It’s dependent on size and type of chip, but laid on grass would likely just be ground into the soil after a few passes, and be horrid in wetter weather.
I used it to cover shallow top dry topsoil area on a slope, well draining, under a tree, and it still, with just minimal horse use, had rotted down into a sloppy mess quite quickly.

I explored all types of track options and the 2 viable contenders for my wet prone soil were hardcore or mudmats. Everything else was lacking longevity, or strength/safety for my horse use and lightweight tractor use.

As you want it just for a light car - IF where you are driving on doesn’t get too boggy and too muddy, there’s ‘car park grass matting’ - it comes in 2 metre wide rolls, and there’s 2 grades lightweight and heavyweight.
There’s a few companies selling this style of grass matting for vehicles. But i’d not use it for boggy areas as it will then move under the wheels. It has strength to prevent ruts into normal soils, but wet-prone soils likely would cause over time the matting to mis-shapen. There are wire pins to pin it down. Animal use recommends plastic pins.
It’s expensive from retail uk companies. I found the chinese supplier they buy it from in bulk and it was a much cheaper price including shipping/import charges.

I dont know the comparison price to mid mats as it was a while ago i did the comparisons, but this was a fair bit cheaper, especially bought direct from the chinese manufacturer.

GrassProtecta heavy-duty PU grass reinforcement mesh | Groundtrax Systems

GrassProtecta heavy-duty polyethylene mesh reinforces grassed surfaces prone to wear and smearing, eg permanent car parking and heavily-used pedestrian areas. The oscillated mesh structure provides greater traction and significantly higher slip resistance when compared with standard mesh...

www.externalworksindex.co.uk

Thanks. Seems you have done some research and development for me.

Ah well it sounds like my land is similar to yours very muddy! Heavy clay! Been an absolute quagmire with all these storms. It isn't that bad for the parts I'd like to lay the track but definitely squelchy nearly everywhere but not ankle deep or anything. It has awful drainage but that is another job which will be a work in progress for some time I imagine.

By mud mats I presume you are speaking on the official mud control mats? It seems there is a lot of confusion due to the generic name where many speak of mud control mats in a general sense while others are referring specifically to the mud control (tm) company mats.

I had not tried the grass mats but I got here by first having tried the grids. I tried these having been assured by the seller that other clients have used them laid straight on to the ground only to find they performed pathetically for this. I then find out they must have a gravel base which totally defeats the purpose imo. If using a gravel base might as well just use gravel alone.

I later saw mention on this forum of similar products performing similarly woefully for them. So I am rather miffed I am several hundred out of pocket for these things.

Someone elsewhere then recommended mud control mats which seem like the way to go.

 

[neddy man]

Is it hilly or flat, would grass mats give grip in hilly wet conditions, is it visible form highway or other properties, if not then a hardcore base with 1"--2.5cm of topsoil on top and seeded might be enough to give you grip and not sink into. Can you go into your Council planning department and enquire what the rules and regulations are without stating your location? A lawn on a house in our village has a garage size area with mud type mats on top of it NOT set into it and park one of there big cars on it every day it has not sunk into the lawn at all even though we have had a wet winter, only downfall is easily pinched.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

When we first moved onto our field 31yrs ago and built a barn, we had a drive way laid down to the barn. At the time you could buy trailer loads of broken tiles from Redlands tiles, sadly not available now. We had a contractor come in and lay it properly, digging it out first then putting down a good thickness of tiles. This is still excellent but over the years muds has encroached over it and now unless there is a drought it is covered in grass and can now only be used by non 4x4 cars when it is very dry, too slippery otherwise.
I am another who has also used mud control mats and highly recommend them.

 

[cauda equina]

What about a ground stabilisation grid, this sort of thing

Ground Support & Stabilisation - Mesh & Grid Solutions - Buy online from MultiMatts

Ground Support & Stabilisation mesh and grids have been designed to provide short and long term access over soft and sensitive ground.

www.multimatts.co.uk

AFAIK it just goes down without any major ground prep so drainage and plant growth are unaffected

 

[sarcasm_queen]

Give your local planning department a call and lay out what your plans are. They’ll be best to advise you, especially as some local authorities can be more gun ho about things than others.

 

[SEL]

What I meant by green was eco-friendly not literally green as in grass coming through.

I suppose my question is two-fold. The PP question of using 'temporary' tracks and the other question of if there is a feasible way to DIY a temporary track for cheaper than mud control mats and ideally using 'green' as in degradeable material. If the latter is a sure 'no' I will feel happier knowing that I examined other options before plucking out the wallet for the premium product.

Is wood chip not going to work for a vehicle track? I know they are popular for footways but would vehicles be too demanding? Would it soon get spun up and down to mud again or could it work? That is fairly cheap and rots away harmlessly. I don't mind if they had to be renewed even every year if it was not that expensive.

Wood chip turns to mush in a blink! A friend has a tree surgeon hubbie and tried to use it but it makes the ground worse.

Not what you're asking but mud control mats (the TM name version) are made from recycled waste so more "green" than you expect. I'll see if I can get some videos of mine later because I've got some down for 3 years and some recently plonked on mud soup so you can see what they're like.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Mud control mats do not require planning permission because
a) They can be lifted and repositioned easily
b) They are SUDS compliant, water goes through them and drains away.
The same cannot be said of hard-core etc. There is a limit of ft sq below which you do not need PP to lay a surface but it is fairly small.

 

[mudder]

What about a ground stabilisation grid, this sort of thing

Ground Support & Stabilisation - Mesh & Grid Solutions - Buy online from MultiMatts

Ground Support & Stabilisation mesh and grids have been designed to provide short and long term access over soft and sensitive ground.

www.multimatts.co.uk

AFAIK it just goes down without any major ground prep so drainage and plant growth are unaffected

Yea but those are even more expensive than the mud control mats.

 

[mudder]

The same cannot be said of hard-core etc. There is a limit of ft sq below which you do not need PP to lay a surface but it is fairly small.

Are you talking of hardcore or even with mats here?

 

[mudder]

Wood chip turns to mush in a blink! A friend has a tree surgeon hubbie and tried to use it but it makes the ground worse.

Not what you're asking but mud control mats (the TM name version) are made from recycled waste so more "green" than you expect. I'll see if I can get some videos of mine later because I've got some down for 3 years and some recently plonked on mud soup so you can see what they're like.

Indeed there are plenty of images on their site though pertaining the driving on them it is limited.

 

[mudder]

Sorry for the post spam, I see you can't edit on here so have to get used to that!

Are others using for driving on them?

As someone above asked, yes it will be on an incline partly. Flat, then down in a dip back to incline to the destination. So flat, down and up and park on the other rise.

EDIT!: oh I see I can edit, either I missed it or was only after some posts. Maybe just looking in the wrong place!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Are you talking of hardcore or even with mats here?

Hardcore. Mud control mats do not need PP hard-core does, even if it is under the mats. MC mats don't usually need anything under them anyway.

We have MC mats as our yard surface. The original earth surface, which had pea gravel on it once upon a time, was scraped with a digger to remove obvious lumps and the mats laid. Our yard is multi-use, parking, horses, dogs, bale storage and we love it. We dont get mud trailled through the kitchen now, the kitchen floor doesn't need washing anywhere near as much and when it does, the job is easier.
We had quotes for other surfaces, including resin and the mats have cost about 10% of that.

 

[setterlover]

Planning permission seems to required for virtually everything if you live in an ANOB so if you are in an ANOB beware council planners will almost certainly tell you that you need to get planning permission.
We lived an ANOB some years ago and we were made to get retrospective pp for putting hardcore in two gateways!!!!.
In a non ANOB you probably would get away with mud mats which if you overseed with grass blend in quite quickly.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Indeed there are plenty of images on their site though pertaining the driving on them it is limited.

They need to be laid like bricks, rather than in strips if you want to drive on them. We regularly have a big New Holland tractor deliver big bales over them.

 

[mudder]

They need to be laid like bricks, rather than in strips if you want to drive on them. We regularly have a big New Holland tractor deliver big bales over them.

Ideally I am sure that is better but to save on cost I intend to do just two tracks with a gap in the middle. The very helpful saleslady informed me a few customers have done this and showed me an image of the 'ladder' formation.

I will not post it just in case the original person did not want it on a public forum but they have done it with parallel tracks and every so often a couple in between to form the rungs which I presume helps stability and keeps the tracks from parting.

When I tallied up, due to the distance, a bit under 100m, I am already looking at about 3 grand, so I don't even want to think about how much it would be if they were all filled in! I simply could not afford that anyway.

 

[PurBee]

Thanks. Seems you have done some research and development for me.

Ah well it sounds like my land is similar to yours very muddy! Heavy clay! Been an absolute quagmire with all these storms. It isn't that bad for the parts I'd like to lay the track but definitely squelchy nearly everywhere but not ankle deep or anything. It has awful drainage but that is another job which will be a work in progress for some time I imagine.

By mud mats I presume you are speaking on the official mud control mats? It seems there is a lot of confusion due to the generic name where many speak of mud control mats in a general sense while others are referring specifically to the mud control (tm) company mats.

I had not tried the grass mats but I got here by first having tried the grids. I tried these having been assured by the seller that other clients have used them laid straight on to the ground only to find they performed pathetically for this. I then find out they must have a gravel base which totally defeats the purpose imo. If using a gravel base might as well just use gravel alone.

I later saw mention on this forum of similar products performing similarly woefully for them. So I am rather miffed I am several hundred out of pocket for these things.

Someone elsewhere then recommended mud control mats which seem like the way to go.

Yes, i’m referencing the official mud control mats design.

Those grids you bought are really for ground stabilisation and some websites do state they need to be filled with soil, gravel or sand. They’re useful for gravel driveways so that tyres dont swim through inches of fresh-laid gravel which ends up dispersing it unevenly. The grids help to keep the gravel surface level and even, with better traction.

The mesh ground stabilisation rolls perform best when theyre laid during finer weather/dry firm soil conditions, and grass it allowed to grow through it, and inter-weave through the mesh, creating a stronger matrix, than just laying it down, pinning it and using it straight away.
That’s another key method of use for it to be better performing that many websites don’t mention.
For animal use, specifically horses, over-seeding is recommended after laying it down to help to speed-up the grass weaving onto/into it.
To be honest, with heavy or daily driving use, im not sure how well any grass weaving through it will survive. So it would be an expensive experiment for it to potentially fail.
But we’re horse folks….we’re used to that!

You could try selling your ground stabilisation grids on the secondhand market , freeads, facebook marketplace, ebay - they’re useful for all kinds of domestic driveway/garden refurb projects.

 

[mudder]

Hardcore. Mud control mats do not need PP hard-core does, even if it is under the mats. MC mats don't usually need anything under them anyway.

We have MC mats as our yard surface. The original earth surface, which had pea gravel on it once upon a time, was scraped with a digger to remove obvious lumps and the mats laid. Our yard is multi-use, parking, horses, dogs, bale storage and we love it. We dont get mud trailled through the kitchen now, the kitchen floor doesn't need washing anywhere near as much and when it does, the job is easier.
We had quotes for other surfaces, including resin and the mats have cost about 10% of that.

So I can lay them right on the grass? That will save a massive amount of work clearing down to soil if so! They should act as a suppressor anyway shouldn't they and the bits in between the gaps will die but grass grow through the holes sooner or later?

You have no slipping issues driving vehicles on them in the yard?