mudder
Active Member
I have just had an expensive failure, can't stomach another one.
Besides from all the additional replies it seems mud mats are the 'no brainer' or at least the best bet.
What triggers requiring planning permission if wanting to make a track across a field?
- Thread starter mudder
- Start date
Besides from all the additional replies it seems mud mats are the 'no brainer' or at least the best bet.
Slightlyconfused
Go away, I'm reading
Have a look and speak to Jelka mats they are really goid
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Yes, for temporary use not requiring pp, they are, but expensive, however as mentioned by others they have great re-sale value, so could be seen as an investment.
Hardcore can be cheaper than mats, but that is dependent on what type of hardcore is available to you from your local quarries. Crushed limestone for agri tracks/yard areas is the most popular common type of material to use.
But you may well find, if you need to hire help to do the hardcore tracks, and the hardcore per 10tonne+ load is over 200, you’ll likely find the cost matching 3k for 100m stretch when all done. 300 per day at least diggerman hire, and 8-10 loads of hardcore = about 3k.
We get hardcore very cheaply here for massive 14 tonne loads, and we hire diggers 50 a day for self use to drastically cut down project cost, so hardcore for us is much cheaper than any mesh or mats.
There’s lots of land masses that have been sold-off and separated, so access to fields now could be via the grass boundary of another field. In those instances, it’s likely that pp for access would be more easily granted for a hardcore track, if you dont own the field youre driving through but have access permission of that 100m strip.
When lands are divided-up they try to design it so each new potential owner has off main road access into their bought field, but i’ve noticed with a few land for sale listings over the years, sometimes that isn’t possible and the fence boundary track of the field next door is created anew, as access. Those instances would likely obtain pp more easily than wanting a track for any other reason.
I dont know your circumstances regarding access but thought i’d mention that if you wanted to feel-out the pp route.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
No problems at all, we drive in snd turn round. The huge tractor drives in andcteverses out.
Yes you can put them directly onto grass or soil and they will bed in. We have them in the field shelter (permanent building) with hardcore as a base but for the apron hard standing they are directly onto the field, which is sloping.
mudder
Active Member
Yes hardcore I could get for 20t for £400 but I thought that is a pretty huge red flag to passersby, if that massive pile suddenly showed up, for who might be that way inclined so it would be a leap of faith to go that route.
I could get a few ton at a time in dumpy bags to do gradually. That is 2x the price but still markedly cheaper than mats.
I had begun to think the hiring contractor idea to get the big budget load laid asap and had no idea of costs so thanks for telling me which I guess is a common comparable rate wherever you go.
Method of last resort.
My mum is rather involved in her local community and there is a very active farmer/builder/entrepreneur in the town and she tells me even he gets tripped up by them constantly so it is best to avoid them. As in even done by the book, or trying, you are likely in for a long wait and many hoops. No need to awaken a sleeping giant I think. If they suss it themselves only then 'cough up'.Seems to be the general consensus here on this forum from other posts I have read whereas other forums are more of the volunteer planning police persuasion who want to tell you every breach you could be committing and to cease and desist immediately.
mudder
Active Member
Thanks. I am going to buy a tester and see I think!
Of course that big delivery cost is a heavy hit to pay twice but pales in comparison to the full outlay.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
They might ve able to arrange a part/shared load for you. I'm not sure how it works because we can only accommodate the smaller lorries, so have just ordered full pallets for ourselves.
mudder
Active Member
How often does hardcore track have to be redone/touched up and how is it done properly to begin?
Following my other query on the mats I had been veering back to the idea of hardcore again due to the initial attraction of lower cost but I suppose it is a false economy.
That was until I tried driving on it again this morning! I got out no issues but when I came back to park I managed to get in but when I got out to look was surprised to see how churned up it is in places. After only a couple of months there are huge tracks where it has gone down to mud.
I do wonder how much is down to the awful weather but you want whatever you use to work in all weathers. No good being stuck for a good portion of the year.
I do think though my first attempt at hardcoring was far from the proper way to do it. Throughout it has felt like walking on sponge until I doubled up in some places. I would probably be looking at 2 or 3 times more to form a proper stable driving area that would last a while. I had instead just been doing whack a mole with the unstable oozing parts. As the area was not that large this was not so much of an issue but still a constant upkeep every few times I drove over it.
I then thought I can only imagine how much of a task that would be if extending to 250ft! It would almost be a full time job. Again, though, that is probably because I did half a job first time.
What is the 'proper' way to do it? I walk on some farm tracks sometimes if on a part of a footpath or on forestry tracks and they are as hard as granite underfoot. I couldn't imagine those becoming unsteady or washing away any time soon.
I only did it about 2 inches of hardcore on soggy mud and just put some more on until it stops oozing. The thicker layers have bedded in better but still a patchwork and no part is anything like those 'proper' jobs mentioned above that I walk on. Those seem in a whole different category.
If doing it properly I guess it would probably take many multiples of stone than I used at which point we are getting to mud control mat prices anyway not to mention the labour involved in laying it either by myself or cost of contractor.
I still have this existing section which is hardcored though which needs managing. to be usable properly again.
Following my other query on the mats I had been veering back to the idea of hardcore again due to the initial attraction of lower cost but I suppose it is a false economy.
That was until I tried driving on it again this morning! I got out no issues but when I came back to park I managed to get in but when I got out to look was surprised to see how churned up it is in places. After only a couple of months there are huge tracks where it has gone down to mud.
I do wonder how much is down to the awful weather but you want whatever you use to work in all weathers. No good being stuck for a good portion of the year.
I do think though my first attempt at hardcoring was far from the proper way to do it. Throughout it has felt like walking on sponge until I doubled up in some places. I would probably be looking at 2 or 3 times more to form a proper stable driving area that would last a while. I had instead just been doing whack a mole with the unstable oozing parts. As the area was not that large this was not so much of an issue but still a constant upkeep every few times I drove over it.
I then thought I can only imagine how much of a task that would be if extending to 250ft! It would almost be a full time job. Again, though, that is probably because I did half a job first time.
What is the 'proper' way to do it? I walk on some farm tracks sometimes if on a part of a footpath or on forestry tracks and they are as hard as granite underfoot. I couldn't imagine those becoming unsteady or washing away any time soon.
I only did it about 2 inches of hardcore on soggy mud and just put some more on until it stops oozing. The thicker layers have bedded in better but still a patchwork and no part is anything like those 'proper' jobs mentioned above that I walk on. Those seem in a whole different category.
If doing it properly I guess it would probably take many multiples of stone than I used at which point we are getting to mud control mat prices anyway not to mention the labour involved in laying it either by myself or cost of contractor.
I still have this existing section which is hardcored though which needs managing. to be usable properly again.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
For successful long lasting hardcore you really need to scrape away all the mud before putting it down and then roll it, a lot, after it's down to make it 'solid'. That's why it needs PP, its not SUDS compliant and the water won't drain through, so it needs to be higher in the middle for the water to run off at the sides.
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Grass matting?
Do you mean Astroturf type?
There is a second hand market for the HUGE rolls of this, where football pitches /sports stadia are updating theirs, and basically don’t want the costs of environmental disposal.
Quite a number of farms use it for tracking, but if gets much wheel mud or animal manure on, becomes slippy because the original AstroTurf pile was worn low - hence update by stadia.
You will need JCB or telehandler to lay, but doesn’t need any pins, or planning permission as totally removable.
Concrete railway sleepers are outstanding ( and ‘temporary’), but probably too much for your situation.
PeterNatt
Well-Known Member
Unless your new track/driveway joins onto the public highway, you would not usually require planning consent. Get a proper hardcore one laid down as that will last a lifetime.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
No, not astroturf, i was referring to the marketed ‘grass reinforcement mesh’ - poly-plastic extruded wavy thick mesh, that comes in rolls, which i linked in my post above my p.s.
They do a lightweight version that takes @5 tonnes per sq. metre, or a heavyweight that takes 10 ton p/sq/m.
A horse supplies site (forget which, this was research a while back) were marketing the heavyweight version as being suitable for horses in their experience. They also said the grass needs time to grow into the mesh to knit around it, making the ground more stable, and stopping the mesh moving/undulating.
It’s best put onto firm lands anyway, to prevent any poaching. Installing it on softer soils would likely cause any mesh on a roll, of any grade to become uneven over time, purely due to the weight per loaded hoof pressing into softer soil below.
My soils are soft year round mostly so expelled the idea. It would have been an expensive experiment to fail.
Considering, at that time, 2 inches of heavy duty rubber mats the horses hooves poached into the soft soft of the main track failed, and became a nightmare, hardcore was my only choice after that!
But i do have sections of literal bog here, black deep squeltchy stuff that has no subsoil. Its deeper than 6 feet that much we do know from drainage channels dug. We needed to cross that to get to our gorgeous limestone grazing fields. In the end we used a technique the army employs in very boggy situations - we even went more heavy duty than they do, as this was literally a sinking pit of bog.
maya2008
Well-Known Member
My experience of hardcore, which I am pretty sure is the ‘so the planning people don’t get twitchy’ type, laid by farmers, is a grey gravel type that is laid and embedded into the ground, with a thin layer of soil on top that will grow grass. It’s basically invisible, drains fine and can take the weight of a tractor. I would tell your local farmers what you need and see what they say.
Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
What technique do the army use?
mudder
Active Member
Don't tease that and not tell us the technique!
I was actually thinking yesterday what the army use as they specialize in temporary tracks over virgin territory especially for making supply lines for all kinds of vehicles.mudder
Active Member
That has not been the general opinion having been asking and looking into the issue for the past couple of months.
If by not needing consent you mean 'permitted development' then sure but that still requires 'prior notification' where you have to submit the proposal and they will review the idea and can still reject it.
mudder
Active Member
Laying a track on the sly and hiding it with soil is different from it being allowed.
Just playing devil's advocate.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
You are allowed to lay hardcore in gateways without PP, which I think is one reason that a relatively small area is allowed in any setting. It might be 25 sq m, or it might change depending on which area you are in.
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Don't tease that and not tell us the technique!
Good that it’s worked!
If anyone tried to engineer a track through a bog here, Council Planners would be the least of your fears - Natural England, DEFRA, myriad green legislation and self righteous keyboard warriors be straight on your head like a ton of bricks.
D66
Well-Known Member
Ooohh! A ton of bricks wouldn’t be good for a bog!
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
No, bog-huggers would be appalled.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Don't tease that and not tell us the technique!
It’s very common here for bogland to be crossed with tracks, to access other non-bog lands further on. Permission for agri-use tracks is far easier to obtain here than in the Uk, especially for agri-use.
If lands were segregated and listed AONB like the uk area it would be more difficult, but really the whole of the west of Ireland by uk standards would be listed as AONB. If the planning laws for those lands in the uk applied here, there would be no development at all in the west, and its already vastly under-populated compared to generations ago.
The planning here is on a individual case by case basis, with agri-use being favoured above housing planning.
Unlike the uk, there’s lands here that don’t have easy access from multiple roads being built around everything. You have to cross many fields to get to fields further along, quite often coming across some type of bogland.
Many farmer syndicates own huge bogs here in the west, and have tracks all over across them for access.
The government funded forestry is grown on many thousands of acres of peatlands too.
For generations the bogs and peatlands have been used for a variety of uses, not simply quickly emptying them of peat for fuel/compost, as most believe.
There’s vastly more large bogs untouched here in the west of Ireland, than ‘intensively depleted’. Most don’t realise that.
There’s many that are left natural, like my little one, and harbour a huge variety of wildlife. My bog was a half acre small lake thousands of years ago, that over time filled-in with the reeds it grew, and looks like any other part of the fields with grass growing.
We had no idea there was a patch of deep peat there initially, and have over time traced its shape to see it is more kidney-shaped.
The much larger bogs of Ireland were the ones used for fuel and compost. That’s now ceased, to a large degree.
The wild-life has enriched here over the years we’ve been here as we dont intensively farm, and have instead added more diverse plant species.
There was a mono-culture of grasses in the field of just tall fescue, which was used extensively for cattle by previous generations. The tall fescue dominated and drowned-out the other natural wild grasses, which re-appeared in abundance without sowing them, just by cutting the tall fescue, as the long leaves of it left a 50 year mulch ontop of the soil.
Sweet vernal and quaking grass, were just 2 of the various older species of grasses to have re-established by themselves, once the man-made mono-culture tall fescue was cut-back.
Beautiful spotted orchids fill the fields in summer, alongside many other wild irish field flower plants. I graze the lands, but not heavily, to maintain the diversity. There’s areas here we have never touched/grazed.
It’s a marvellous areay of varied wild species on lands when you tend the land conservatively. The wild-life here, varied insects even, fascinate me.
I always wanted to know if it was possible to use/farm land and also maintain care for, and even better increase, wild-life on the land at the same time. I wanted to know the answer to the question was it a case of man V nature, or could we realistically live harmoniously, respectfully, side by side.
My farming efforts have proven to me it’s possible. It’s a very small experiment i’ve been engaged in and it has potential for these methods to be scaled-up to larger farms. This is happening with larger farms already as many farmers now tend to have a more ‘symbiotic’ attitude towards farming-wildlife.
The army use a matrix honeycomb support heavy-duty ‘mesh’, that they fill with hardcore. The mesh holds the rocks in place, so they don’t move around when traversed over.
A similar technique is used by local authority road development embankment stabilisation.
I’ll try to find and attach a picture of this ‘matrix’ stuff used.
Geocell! That’s what it’s called…i had forgot.
I found that picture quickly from an amazon seller link:
We used a similar matrix stabilisation like that, but with the added under-layer so that the whole track could be easily removed/dug-up with a digger.
If you put hardcore down onto pure peat it’ll just sink deeper and deeper over time. Especially with tractors using the track.
The technique we used was similar to the geocell above, essentially making our access track a ‘floating track’ above the land, that doesn’t compress at all into the peat below, leaving the structure of the peat completely intact.
For you OP, your clay slippy topsoil doesnt sound like it needs the geocell method. Where poaching of hooves or tyres sinking is easily done in very soft soil, geocell is perfect.
Your clay soil would likely need a 6 inch hardcore layer, that, as suggested above, could be scattered with some soil and sown. Its amazing how little soil some grasses need to grow in, especially fescues.
mudder
Active Member
Don't mud control mats leech over time into the soil? I am beginning to guilt trip myself now about using them over something 'natural'.
I know the spiel is they are 'playground safe' or whatever but not sure what that means. Aren't they just going to sap microplastics in to the soil over years which would then be locked there?
I know the spiel is they are 'playground safe' or whatever but not sure what that means. Aren't they just going to sap microplastics in to the soil over years which would then be locked there?
PurBee
Well-Known Member
There’s so many different grades of plastics. You’d want to find out the exact type of plastic they’re made from to investigate whether they have any propensity over time to break-up on a micro level affecting soil, or leach chemically.
There’s been no reports of them failing over time on here from what i’ve read, folk are very happy with their longevity.
External plastics generally become brittle and degrade if theyre leaching chemically as the chemical plastic molecular bonds break apart over time.
Tarpaulins for instance, become brittle with age, mainly uv degradation.
I’m using an extruded plastic tension fencing that’s now 16yrs old, and is as flexible and strong as the day i installed it. I’m amazed at it’s longevity.
My guess would be they’re made from one of the very inert types of plastics. Anything that’s for prolonged external use, especially for laying in mud, would need to be a strong plastic that can withstand all types of PH substances. Many rubber-plastic welly materials now claim to be resistant to petrol/urine/caustic substances etc.
rabatsa
Confuddled
Mud control slabs have a 20yr manufacturers warranty.
We have been building up the area covered in them for 6/7 years now. The last batch we put down in the main yard over the previous hardcore/limestone topping as the cars were rutting it up and we were tracking it all over the house. Now we can come inside with the shopping without taking our shoes off at the door.
A lot of the ground we have covered has been flat but not level, the slight bumps and dips have not been a problem once the slabs were laid.
We have been building up the area covered in them for 6/7 years now. The last batch we put down in the main yard over the previous hardcore/limestone topping as the cars were rutting it up and we were tracking it all over the house. Now we can come inside with the shopping without taking our shoes off at the door.
A lot of the ground we have covered has been flat but not level, the slight bumps and dips have not been a problem once the slabs were laid.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
One of the people who sell mud control mats parks her 16 ton horsebox on them, and she is in a mud soup area!
suestowford
Well-Known Member
We put in a track across the top of one very wet field but it was so long ago I can't recall if it was included in the planning permission we had for other work. It's just hardcore, which we quarried from the bottom of one of the fields. Being so long ago you'd never see a track there now as the grass has grown all through it, the cattle have crapped all over it and it just looks like part of the field. But you can walk along it when the rest of the field is welly-deep, and it will take the weight of a tractor & trailer.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
We are on clay so I have just about tried everything, including drainage and hardcore, so I have used this over hardcore to stabilise the Type 2 and its effective short term, about two years but it degrades with light, and if anything catches it tears.Yes, i understood your green reference, i was just extending it to also suggest they literally also do ‘green-up’! An added advantage of using a material that’s plant friendly. Helps them not be so much of an eye-sore, if they would be considered to be one by some planners perhaps.
Im not sure wood chip would be of use. It’s dependent on size and type of chip, but laid on grass would likely just be ground into the soil after a few passes, and be horrid in wetter weather.
I used it to cover shallow top dry topsoil area on a slope, well draining, under a tree, and it still, with just minimal horse use, had rotted down into a sloppy mess quite quickly.
I explored all types of track options and the 2 viable contenders for my wet prone soil were hardcore or mudmats. Everything else was lacking longevity, or strength/safety for my horse use and lightweight tractor use.
As you want it just for a light car - IF where you are driving on doesn’t get too boggy and too muddy, there’s ‘car park grass matting’ - it comes in 2 metre wide rolls, and there’s 2 grades lightweight and heavyweight.
There’s a few companies selling this style of grass matting for vehicles. But i’d not use it for boggy areas as it will then move under the wheels. It has strength to prevent ruts into normal soils, but wet-prone soils likely would cause over time the matting to mis-shapen. There are wire pins to pin it down. Animal use recommends plastic pins.
It’s expensive from retail uk companies. I found the chinese supplier they buy it from in bulk and it was a much cheaper price including shipping/import charges.
I dont know the comparison price to mid mats as it was a while ago i did the comparisons, but this was a fair bit cheaper, especially bought direct from the chinese manufacturer.
GrassProtecta heavy-duty PU grass reinforcement mesh | Groundtrax Systems
GrassProtecta heavy-duty polyethylene mesh reinforces grassed surfaces prone to wear and smearing, eg permanent car parking and heavily-used pedestrian areas. The oscillated mesh structure provides greater traction and significantly higher slip resistance when compared with standard mesh...www.externalworksindex.co.uk
I use Mud Control for temporary paths, I do have them as permanent flooring but I have laid them loose and if was just for a car would try without the sand base and just where the tyres run, in a staggered join.
mudder
Active Member
Ok so I bought a fair few of the mud control mats now and laid them but I have found their limits!
Work decently to drive on when it is flat but I got stuck twice yesterday when trying to drive on the sloped part I laid and the second time I was stuck bad! Was really worrying and frustrating as it was coming to sunset and still hadn't made progress. I was finally able to get out somehow with a sort of rocking motion.
The problem isn't the mud. It can be, but that is another issue. I have found a good use for those other grass grids in that I put them under really muddy sections and the mud control mats on top. This then stops the mud oozing through and thus prevents mud tire spin.
The issue in this case though is that the tire would just spin on the plastic and was a nightmare to get anything in to grip as the wheel would not grab is and just spin it off back to bare plastic. Here the plastic works against you I believe. I tried many attempts to cram gravel and sand to no avail.
I had to start on an incline so this made things all the harder. I didn't want to go back further, and in the second case couldn't as otherwise the back wheels would fall off into pure mud as I was only doing tracks of slabs and was right on the edge!
I am really amazed I got out but I was so happy to reach back over the crest of the hill!
I've bought them now though so want to use them. Any suggestions for how I could get more grip for the sloped section?
It isn't really steep but more like an undulation in the field but regardless the slabs alone have been woefully inadequate for this!
It is a none 4x4 and so the open differential caused just one wheel to spin and just makes matters worse.
I am wondering if either getting new grippy tires would work or if a cheaper solution of putting something on the MC slabs to grip better. Any suggestions? I am thinking maybe that sandpaper like shed roofing stuff. Forgot what it's called?
Work decently to drive on when it is flat but I got stuck twice yesterday when trying to drive on the sloped part I laid and the second time I was stuck bad! Was really worrying and frustrating as it was coming to sunset and still hadn't made progress. I was finally able to get out somehow with a sort of rocking motion.
The problem isn't the mud. It can be, but that is another issue. I have found a good use for those other grass grids in that I put them under really muddy sections and the mud control mats on top. This then stops the mud oozing through and thus prevents mud tire spin.
The issue in this case though is that the tire would just spin on the plastic and was a nightmare to get anything in to grip as the wheel would not grab is and just spin it off back to bare plastic. Here the plastic works against you I believe. I tried many attempts to cram gravel and sand to no avail.
I had to start on an incline so this made things all the harder. I didn't want to go back further, and in the second case couldn't as otherwise the back wheels would fall off into pure mud as I was only doing tracks of slabs and was right on the edge!
I am really amazed I got out but I was so happy to reach back over the crest of the hill!
I've bought them now though so want to use them. Any suggestions for how I could get more grip for the sloped section?
It isn't really steep but more like an undulation in the field but regardless the slabs alone have been woefully inadequate for this!
It is a none 4x4 and so the open differential caused just one wheel to spin and just makes matters worse.
I am wondering if either getting new grippy tires would work or if a cheaper solution of putting something on the MC slabs to grip better. Any suggestions? I am thinking maybe that sandpaper like shed roofing stuff. Forgot what it's called?