What would you class as a dangerous horse?

I

Impossibledecision

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Following on from my last post (where I got some excellent advice, helping me make the decision I need to make, and realising it’s the right one). I’ve been reflecting and trying to forgive myself. The whole time with my mare I’ve been thinking it’s me, I need to just get on with it, I need to be a better handler, this is horses, this is normal. I then spend time with other people’s horses and realise mine is quite extreme. She’s not my first horse. Whether a horse is ‘dangerous’ is rather subjective but what would you all class as ‘dangerous’? Here is some of the stuff my mare does/has done

Regularly rearing in hand without warning when spooked by something minor (proper upright rears, almost going over- has to be lead in a lunge line because of this)

Guarding other horses and chasing people trying to catch them, cantering behind people leading then turning and double barrelling towards them (too close)- she’s now on single turn out

Kicking and biting

Going into a blind panic on the lunge without warning- ie not just cantering and bucking like a fresh horse- but flat out canter, getting closer and closer on the circle (ignoring the whip at the shoulder), bucking, leaping, rearing, slipping and almost pulling herself over by turning too tight (she injured herself doing this one day)

Panicking when travelling, kicking the lorry, blind panic trying to get out :-(

Rearing and spinning and trying to canter up a main road when lead in hand because a dog walking past spooked her (again proper rears, not little bunny hops), not calming down after the dog had gone
 
If the horse you describe was mine it would have been gone some time ago if vets and an exclusion diet didn't change the behaviour.

All horses can be dangerous. I'm not sure what your question really is? What behaviour is "dangerous enough" to PTS an otherwise healthy horse? That might differ from person to person, but there wasn't much doubt about yours, for me.
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A lot depends on how the horse is kept, what experience the horse and owner have had, age of horse etc etc
In a young horse, clueless owner, not enough turnout you might expect all the above behaviour. I suspect too many horses don’t get enough turnout, owners become nervous riding them, lunge or lead out instead and so things get worse.
 
ycbm said:
If the horse you describe was mine it would have been gone some time ago if vets and an exclusion diet didn't change the behaviour.

All horses can be dangerous. I'm not sure what your question really is? What behaviour is "dangerous enough" to PTS an otherwise healthy horse? That might differ from person to person, but there wasn't much doubt about yours, for me.
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Thanks ycbm I think that’s was my question really, would others not find this behaviour as ‘dangerous’ as me, would they ‘put up with it’. Your answer has made me feel better. I know what I need to do, just trying to forgive myself I suppose
 
From the detailed information on this horse, I would immediately euthanase. I support ycbm's opinion, above.
The horse was not only a danger to her handlers and owner, but to outsiders as well. Ref: the man walking a dog. This level of aggression could not be condoned. It would be like running through a crowded supermarket with one's finger on a loaded shotgun.
Many years ago, I liveried on a yard where the owner's horse transformed from a pleasant, easy horse to a dangerously aggressive one.
He was pts. Post mortem investigations evidenced a large brain tumour.
O/P, you made the right decision.
 
I was on a yard once where a couple had a big gelding that everyone knew was dangerous. He was fine to ride, but on the ground he would chase people in the field and guard other horses, as per the OP. His behaviour was frightening, and he was eventually PTS, thankfully before he killed anyone. Horses are just too big to take chances with, and once they realise they can call our bluff ie ignore our waving lunge whips and our puny weight hanging onto lunge lines we are in serious trouble.
 
Landcruiser said:
I was on a yard once where a couple had a big gelding that everyone knew was dangerous. He was fine to ride, but on the ground he would chase people in the field and guard other horses, as per the OP. His behaviour was frightening, and he was eventually PTS, thankfully before he killed anyone. Horses are just too big to take chances with, and once they realise they can call our bluff ie ignore our waving lunge whips and our puny weight hanging onto lunge lines we are in serious trouble.
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Thanks Landcruiser, that’s an excellent point, it’s when they know their own strength :-( my mare does, even lead in a chifney she’ll rear and try to get away if she needs to
 
We have one on our yard that I would class as dangerous. Must always have a headcollar on in the stable in order to catch her; if you go into the stable with her she will immediately turn and double barrel you. Same in the field, handler cannot go into the field with her (even if she is at the other end of the field) as she will gallop at full speed with teeth bared, and then proceed to kick with intent. Many staff / liveries have had to army roll under the fence to get away from her. She has broken bones of staff more times than I care to mention.

She can't be led past other horses as she will go for them with teeth or legs. Often when leading she will explode, rear, buck, kick and generally cause havoc until she is let go and then it takes a long time and plenty of people corralling her back into the safety of her field / stable.

In this mares' case I am 100% sure it is down to pain. The poor thing has severe SI issues, KS, ulcers, is prone to lami & regular bouts of cellulitis etc. I could go on.

Personally if she was mine she would have been PTS years ago. I feel very very sorry for her, I have never met such an unhappy horse in my life. The very novice owners seem oblivious to it all, regardless of asking everyone for advice and then promptly ignoring said advice and continuing to soldier on with her. Very sad situation.
 
Landcruiser said:
once they realise they can call our bluff ie ignore our waving lunge whips and our puny weight hanging onto lunge lines we are in serious trouble.
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In fairness to horses, I think some of them DO know this, but they're just not motivated to argue. They just cooperate with us, sometimes tolerating a surprising degree of pain, worry, or discomfort before they start to use their size against us. I often stop and think about how remarkable this is.

Personally I would consider any horse who has stopped respecting a human's personal space (whether through pain, poor training, uncontrollable fear etc) to be dangerous. You lose perspective though, when it's your horse and you're dealing with it every day (I know I did). It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself, but from an outside perspective you're making a sensible and probably compassionate decision. So I'm another one who would say I think you're doign the right thing.
 
I think you have come to the right decision, however hard it is :(

I have known 1 truly dangerous Horse in my life, he was PTS at age 4. He was hand reared as lost his mum during foaling. He was very unpredictable and it got the point the owner was in tears every day over him and it wasn't doing her mental health any good. She had 2 professionals out (one being a very well known and respected guy) and he said he believes the only cure to be a bullet. He was led in a chiffony and even then was extremely hard work. He would bite, kick, charge at people, lunge over the door, break away and run off, at one point it took 3 people and use of a car to turn him out (car was used to block him in so he couldn't get onto the road if he got away from the owner) one min he was be leading sweetly, the next would blind bolt and be gone. There were days she couldn't even get into the stable with him as he would spin and kick the moment anyone entered. I felt really terrible for the owner, I know she really struggled to come to the decision but she wouldn't pass him on and after way too many near misses she decided to PTS.

I have dealt with Horses who have been quirky on the ground or been a bit nippy or nervy. No Horse has ever worried me like the above.
 
Cortez said:
Blimey, I’d have put that one down a long time ago. No horse that’s trying to hurt you is worth keeping, especially not a leisure horse.
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Couldn't agree more. The mare is rarely in work, the owners may tack up and take her for a little mooch around the village once in a blue moon but it's rare. She's currently having another bad bout of cellulitis, I hope they will make the right decision for her soon.
 
Sometimes though to play devils advocate its about finding the right home. We used to have a pony that would bite you as soon as look at you, he was brilliant under saddle but many of you would consider him dangerous. We loved him and thought we would just have him forever as I wouldn’t have considered advertising him when my daughter outgrew him.
I ended up giving him to someone on here who still has him and they love him too. You just needed to be able to manage him and not think that he would change.
 
ycbm said:
I would never forgive myself of a horse I sold knowing it was dangerous killed someone. Better it be dead than take that risk, I think.
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That could happen with any horse, the problems start when people aren’t honest. I certainly didn’t hide what our pony was like and the new family got a talented pony for free. There are homes out there and I suspect what a lot of people think of a problem horse would be fine in a different home.
 
LaurenBay said:
I think you have come to the right decision, however hard it is :(

I have known 1 truly dangerous Horse in my life, he was PTS at age 4. He was hand reared as lost his mum during foaling. He was very unpredictable and it got the point the owner was in tears every day over him and it wasn't doing her mental health any good. She had 2 professionals out (one being a very well known and respected guy) and he said he believes the only cure to be a bullet. He was led in a chiffony and even then was extremely hard work. He would bite, kick, charge at people, lunge over the door, break away and run off, at one point it took 3 people and use of a car to turn him out (car was used to block him in so he couldn't get onto the road if he got away from the owner) one min he was be leading sweetly, the next would blind bolt and be gone. There were days she couldn't even get into the stable with him as he would spin and kick the moment anyone entered. I felt really terrible for the owner, I know she really struggled to come to the decision but she wouldn't pass him on and after way too many near misses she decided to PTS.

I have dealt with Horses who have been quirky on the ground or been a bit nippy or nervy. No Horse has ever worried me like the above.
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Another perspective - I knew a horse very similar to this, also hand reared. ALL other horses rejected him, including an uber-bossy lead mare that was much bigger and would normally 'deal' with anything. No horses wanted to be with him or have him in the herd.
So in the wild, he would have been ostracized and probably not lasted long.
To allow aggressive behaviour is not really natural, even in horse terms.
 
bonny said:
That could happen with any horse, the problems start when people aren’t honest. I certainly didn’t hide what our pony was like and the new family got a talented pony for free. There are homes out there and I suspect what a lot of people think of a problem horse would be fine in a different home.
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Bonny your pony was nothing like the horse that has been described. Hence your point was not helpful to the person who has decided to PTS a very dangerous horse. Finding the mare a new home, even with full disclosure, is not the right thing, imo, for this horse. These are the type that someone thinks they can resolve, finds they can't, sells at auction or directly to a bin end dealer, who sedates it to sell it and then it nearly or actually kills someone.

I PTS a dangerous horse a few years back which was rehomed as a permanent loan light hack by one to another long term forum member, who turned out to be a bin end dealer. It was recovered by the original owner after being sold, then given to me when she divorced and lost her grazing. Leo Walkers pony was sold while on loan to someone she knew well. Nobody knows who they can trust and dangerous horses aren't worth the risk to another person's life.
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ycbm said:
Bonny your pony was nothing like the horse that has been described. Hence your point was not helpful to the person who has decided to PTS a very dangerous horse. Finding the mare a new home, even with full disclosure, is not the right thing, imo, for this horse. These are the type that someone thinks they can resolve, finds they can't, sells at auction or directly to a bin end dealer, who sedates it to sell it and then it nearly or actually kills someone.

I PTS a dangerous horse a few years back which was rehomed as a permanent loan light hack by one to another long term forum member, who turned out to be a bin end dealer. It was recovered by the original owner after being sold, then given to me when she divorced and lost her grazing. Leo Walkers pony was sold while on loan to someone she knew well. Nobody knows who they can trust and dangerous horses aren't worth the risk to another person's life.
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I don’t know, none of us really know. I guess it just worries me that all the posts on here when someone thinks their horse or pony is dangerous end up with everybody piling in to say pts. None of us know the horse involved or the human and we are judging from a position of very little knowledge to say the horse couldn’t have a future with someone else. I have had a lot of racehorses over the years that certainly would be dangerous in the wrong hands, doesn’t mean they couldn’t have a future as long as you are careful where they go. I think some horses struggle in livery yards, the pony I’m talking about certainly couldn’t have lived on one. I don’t normally reply to what will I do posts partly because I don’t know the horse/rider and partly because everyone else will say the same thing and generally it’s what the owner wants to hear.n
 
LaurenBay said:
I wouldn't class a biter as dangerous if that was the only vice. I would sell a biter on (but I'd be picky who it went too)

I wouldn't sell on anything I deemed dangerous, for the potential owners sake and the Horses sake.
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You can’t go into a stable or field with him.
 
For me this horse would be too much. I would consider it a danger to me and to others. It must be impossible to have a horse who you cannot even ask someone else to bring in or do any minor task, what would happen if you were ill? I would not keep the horse, and would not in any circumstances pass it on to another owner, therefore PTS would be the only option.

OP, you have clearly tried your best to find the source of the problem, and you could spend every penny you have on continuing the investigations. You may still never find the cause, or you may find something that is anyway not treatable.

I love all of my animals dearly, as you clearly do OP, but sometimes PTS is the best option for them and for us. A terribly sad position to be in, and I am sorry for you, but to me the behavior you describe is very dangerous and leaves you with no real choice.
 
For me, there are no “dangerous horses” (excluding those with certain neurological issues), just horses in the wrong situation. In her case, it sounds like the “right situation” for her to be would be out in a herd 24/7, far from people, with other horses who are also never handled - which is pretty much impossible.
 
I've known a few truly dangerous horses and they were all either over handled when young (ie hand reared or box rested / intensively nursed) and then "sorted out" violently by an idiot when that made them disrespectful, or in a lot of pain. This is assuming basic management is in order (ie turnout, company, fibre based diet, handlers have some idea what they are doing).

The thing that is really dangerous, to me, isn't so much particular behaviours (like biting) but unpredictability.

Re the OPs mare, for me the sudden taking off on the lunge suggests pain.
 
laura_nash said:
I've known a few truly dangerous horses and they were all either over handled when young (ie hand reared or box rested / intensively nursed) and then "sorted out" violently by an idiot when that made them disrespectful, or in a lot of pain. This is assuming basic management is in order (ie turnout, company, fibre based diet, handlers have some idea what they are doing).

The thing that is really dangerous, to me, isn't so much particular behaviours (like biting) but unpredictability.

Re the OPs mare, for me the sudden taking off on the lunge suggests pain.
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Lots of horses will take off on the lunge, generally ones that have got away before and/or get lunged way too much.
 
I have retrained quite a few "dangerous" horses in my time, only one of which turned out to be a failure and ended up being euthanised (on my recommendation). It turned out to have a brain tumour. The others were mostly just cases of wrong horse/wrong handler and people spoiling them through ignorance. One tricky one was an orphan; he took a while to come right but we got there in the end, and he was sold on to the right home.

Bonny, the devil doesn't need anyone to advocate for him. You just seem to need to take a contrarian stance on everything. You are quite tiring.
 
Cortez said:
I have retrained quite a few "dangerous" horses in my time, only one of which turned out to be a failure and ended up being euthanised (on my recommendation). It turned out to have a brain tumour. The others were mostly just cases of wrong horse/wrong handler and people spoiling them through ignorance. One tricky one was an orphan; he took a while to come right but we got there in the end, and he was sold on to the right home.

Bonny, the devil doesn't need anyone to advocate for him. You just seem to need to take a contrarian stance on everything. You are quite tiring.
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You are free to ignore my ramblings, it’s a forum, anybody is free to write on it.
 
We had a mare who we decided to pts, but it was Christmas and so we delayed. She was 12 and had become dangerous to bring in. Two people leading, with halters and behind another horse and she was still hard to manage. We then excluded everything except hay and grass from her diet, for other reasons. She changed immediately, although was never in proper work again as we couldn't guarantee that some idiot hadn't fed her. We kept her until she was 24, by then we were on our own land and she could be a happy companion.
I would always, now, do a full exclusion diet first, but would pts if that didn't work within a month.
 
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