What would you do about these hooves?

[j1ffy]

***Note: I don't want this to become a thread about the rights and wrongs of how horses are kept here in HK. There are many differences with the UK, but riding stables here do a great job of keeping horses with many limitations and of retraining hundreds of retired racehorses to become riding school and low-level competition horses***

I have an ex-racehorse on loan here in Hong Kong, who currently have front hooves that look like this:

I haven't taken sole shots but rest-assured that they are pretty shocking, no concavity and thin soles that bruise easily. Currently he is very sore if he loses a front shoe. I have taken off his back shoes as his hind hooves are in a much better state, and he's coping fine with this.

I would love to take him barefoot (the bay PRE in my signature is barefoot and is currently leading a full working life at Los Alamos Riding in Spain), however we have some serious limitations here in HK that I can't get around:

- Very very limited turnout (a few hours a week in an arena at best)
- Limited selection of feeds to choose from (I've just overhauled his diet to be as low sugar as I can find, which means a reliance on speedi-beet)
- Even more limited selection of supplements (I'm putting him on Pink Powder as a general mineral supplement) - the only way to get them is to ship them from the UK, which is obviously very expensive
- The only tarmac to work him on is the car park!
- No hacking

Other than the feed changes above, I will ask the yard manager to get the head farrier in Hong Kong to look at him as clearly the current farrier isn't helping (e.g. the photo above suggests there is no heel support).

So, any ideas on how to help him? He's quite lazy in the arena and I do wonder if part of it is that his feet are sore - he also looks less smooth with his off-fore at times though the vet hasn't picked up anything (again, I'm considering a full lameness work-up with the head vet here).

Here's the whole horse if anyone's interested in more than just his feet! Somehow in attempting to make him stand square I've made him look very tucked up

 

[LucyPriory]

You are spot on in realising you have to address diet.

I am guessing you have no choice regarding forage? Are you feeding hay or haylage?

I would be very tempted to use a probiotic such as Yea Sacc 1026, for the long term.

With my own somewhat tricky horse I have been double dosing over the summer and have been very pleased with the results.

When I got her 'conventional' feeding had severely damaged her hind gut and she has always required a lot of TLC in this regard. I find this to also be true of many TBs and other horses which have extensive training or stabling as youngsters.

If you have to import minerals/supplements you can probably find something more effective and better value than pink powder.

As many supplements are not very palatable you may want to get a range of samples first.

The hooves by the way are showing classic signs of not coping with diet.

As to the exercise problem. I would get some boots for the fronts with pads.

As hard work as it will be, it is possible to get some conditioning work into hooves from endlessly circling car parks - I've done it myself, in the dark, with head torch in the the rain and snow.

Hooves adapt the quality of the horn to the surfaces they work on (when bare). So if you only ever do arena work this isn't so much of an issue, unless you suddenly without any preparation decide to go mountain climing........

However the stabled, low movement horse tends to get very contracted caudal hooves and this is an issue. Which is where the endless car park circling plays a big part.

If you can get your horse put on a walker etc, even with boots on you will find this helps a lot.

 

[j1ffy]

Thanks for the response. That's interesting re: YeaSacc - would brewer's yeast do something similar? I can get the latter at the supermarket in small quantities so it could serve as a 'sample'.

Time would be an issue for conditioning in the car park but I may be able to get some help. My main concern though would be taking the shoes off too soon, I think I need to get the diet right first to minimise soreness during the transition period. I already send MagOx to my horse in Spain and pay a small fortune for postage, I will resort to doing the same for my horse here if needed but it's a very expensive option...

Hay is all imported so no choice on that, but it is hay rather than haylage. I have replaced one of his three feeds a day with extra hay as I don't think he needs that much hard feed.

Interestingly a lot of the horses have pretty good feet considering they're stable-kept, TBs and on fairly unsuitable diets.

 

[j1ffy]

I was just thinking that if I do go down the route of having a supplement shipped in, I may as well go for a complete hoof-focused mineral supplement.

Does anyone have any experience of Pro-Hoof? Or can you recommend anything else?

 

[Brightbay]

I know someone Who was in HK who has taken her tricky TB barefoot. She has managed to get farrier on board, but I think now does a lot of the maintenance trimming herself. I can see if I can find out who her farrier is, if that would help

YeaSacc does different things to brewer's yeast... brewer's yeast isn't alive so is just a powder that has a good range of B vitamins in it. YeaSacc has an active live yeast that does seem to help horses with delicate stomachs. To me, they smell quite similar - yeasacc is sightly less strong smell.

 

[snopuma]

Pro-Hoof all the way! After 5 months of a footy TB ex-racer tottering about Pro-Hoof stopped the footiness in 7 days!

I also use cavallo hoof boots for work and part of the transition with turnout.

Your horses feet make me want to cry, mine looked as bad this in June and now you wouldn't belive the change, my farrier was not happy to take the shoes off at all, 'she'll be really sore, you know that don't you!' is waht he said, I waited for him to leave and popped her boots on and turned her out, she bounced round with glee, funnily enough the only time she has looked lame is when he recently trimmed her fronts instead of hinds and made her sore, his days are numbered!

So, if you do decide to go barefoot, think diet diet diet, and don't let the farrier trim the sole or the frog, keep on top of thrush, and learn to rasp yourself, someone coming every 4-6 weeks isn't going to help your horse, but there are many videos on youtube and books and blogs to help you, and remember less is more with trimming!

Good Luck!

 

[j1ffy]

I know someone Who was in HK who has taken her tricky TB barefoot. She has managed to get farrier on board, but I think now does a lot of the maintenance trimming herself. I can see if I can find out who her farrier is, if that would help

YeaSacc does different things to brewer's yeast... brewer's yeast isn't alive so is just a powder that has a good range of B vitamins in it. YeaSacc has an active live yeast that does seem to help horses with delicate stomachs. To me, they smell quite similar - yeasacc is sightly less strong smell.

Brightbay - I'd love to hear more about your friend! Do you think you'd be able to put us in touch?

Snopuma - thanks for the feedback on pro-hoof I think I'll bite the bullet and get some sent over (the lovely lady at Pro-Earth will think I'm nuts, she's just sent a load of stuff to Spain for me as well!!)

 

[Goldenstar]

I was just thinking that if I do go down the route of having a supplement shipped in, I may as well go for a complete hoof-focused mineral supplement.

Does anyone have any experience of Pro-Hoof? Or can you recommend anything else?

I have worked abroad with horses in the short of yard you describe and would recommend farriers formula which I have experiance of using in stabled horses with good results.
I aggree with LP you need to get some yeast sacc or Protexin are something along those times .
Also agree with LP re the movement and boots.
Where I was we had no horse walker and ( the horses where shod) and I had the grooms leading them round and round the car park and yard.

 

[here_i_am]

This might be a daft question, but the decent mineral supplements we use here (Pro Hoof, Pro Balance +, Forage Plus, etc), they're balanced to the average UK forage deficiencies. Where is the hay you use imported from? Is it likely to be deficient in similar minerals? I'd be worried about over/underdosing. Worth checking though. Im sure there's a way of finding out. Good luck with it all though x

 

[Suechoccy]

Toes far too long, pastern-axis broken, heels underrun and unsupported, nail holes very low in the hoof wall.

 

[j1ffy]

I have worked abroad with horses in the short of yard you describe and would recommend farriers formula which I have experiance of using in stabled horses with good results.
I aggree with LP you need to get some yeast sacc or Protexin are something along those times .
Also agree with LP re the movement and boots.
Where I was we had no horse walker and ( the horses where shod) and I had the grooms leading them round and round the car park and yard.

I was thinking the same - if I can get the grooms to walk him on the tarmac for 20 mins a day that should be a big help. We have no horse walker either

This might be a daft question, but the decent mineral supplements we use here (Pro Hoof, Pro Balance +, Forage Plus, etc), they're balanced to the average UK forage deficiencies. Where is the hay you use imported from? Is it likely to be deficient in similar minerals? I'd be worried about over/underdosing. Worth checking though. Im sure there's a way of finding out. Good luck with it all though x

It's a very good point and one I had considered (not daft at all!). I'm at the mercy of the Hong Kong Jockey Club and where they decide to import from at any one time - I assume it varies according to the time of year and where the best crop is from (it's not from the UK due to HK's very strict quarantine laws, mostly Australia and North America I think). I'll do some digging. However I would assume that there won't be 'dangerous' levels in any of the mentioned supplements (I will check that though) and it would be a start at least!

Toes far too long, pastern-axis broken, heels underrun and unsupported, nail holes very low in the hoof wall.

I know what the issues are, that's why I want to fix them!

 

[Brightbay]

Brightbay - I'd love to hear more about your friend! Do you think you'd be able to put us in touch?
!)

Have messaged her and will get her email for you, she is happy to share her experiences. She says she did end up doing it all herself, although I remember yard farrier showed her how to trim.

I will PM you once I have contact details for her ETA or if you're on Facebook I could put you in touch that way (that's how she and I "know" each other, though we've only met by Skype , lol 21st century friends!)

 

[criso]

YeaSacc does different things to brewer's yeast... brewer's yeast isn't alive so is just a powder that has a good range of B vitamins in it.

Not sure I'd agree with that, although it is a dead yeast there is evidence it still has a beneficial/probiotic effect which is why it gets used as a main ingredient in many balancers e.g. pink powder.

It makes a massive difference to my tb, I can tell when I run out and as I get a big bag it works out cheaper for me.

Yeasacc also worked for him though no better or worse but Brewers yeast gives me other things as well as it contains biotin amongst a variety of b vits and some amino acids.

Some people switched when there were supply issues with Brewer's Yeast over here and
as you feed more than yeasacc it can be less palatable.

If it's the one you can get in HK then worth trying, if you can get it in the supermarket you may be able to source bulk wholesale quantities locally at a reasonable price.

 

[j1ffy]

Have messaged her and will get her email for you, she is happy to share her experiences. She says she did end up doing it all herself, although I remember yard farrier showed her how to trim.

I will PM you once I have contact details for her ETA or if you're on Facebook I could put you in touch that way (that's how she and I "know" each other, though we've only met by Skype , lol 21st century friends!)

Thanks Brightbay. My FB account has its settings turned up so your friend won't be able to find me - PM is probably best

If it's the one you can get in HK then worth trying, if you can get it in the supermarket you may be able to source bulk wholesale quantities locally at a reasonable price.

Thanks Criso. I'll check where the BY is from and try to source locally if a trial goes well.

Random question - is marmite (yeast extract) made from the same stuff as brewer's yeast? I can't stand the stuff but I know a few people who feed it to help horses with sweet itch, seems to work quite well for them.

 

[cptrayes]

I know someone Who was in HK who has taken her tricky TB barefoot. She has managed to get farrier on board, but I think now does a lot of the maintenance trimming herself. I can see if I can find out who her farrier is, if that would help

YeaSacc does different things to brewer's yeast... brewer's yeast isn't alive so is just a powder that has a good range of B vitamins in it. YeaSacc has an active live yeast that does seem to help horses with delicate stomachs. To me, they smell quite similar - yeasacc is sightly less strong smell.

Brewers Yeast and yea-sacc have the same beneficial anti-inflammatory effects on the gut, only because yea-sacc is a live yeast you can use 1/3 of the quantity. It is also much more consistent in taste and palatability. Check the Pink Powder, I think it already contains yea-sacc???

Yes, Marmite is made from Brewers Yeast, very concentrated.

 

[cptrayes]

Jiffy look at the top half inch of your boys front feet. That's the angle he wants, and the shoes are preventing him. If you take off the shoes, his feet will continue to grow at that steeper angle until they reach the floor, shortening his toe by over an inch as if by magic

The "camped under" stance that he has in the full photo is typical of a horse who is mildly achey in all four feet. They tend, obviously, to get a sore back as well.

 

[j1ffy]

Jiffy look at the top half inch of your boys front feet. That's the angle he wants, and the shoes are preventing him. If you take off the shoes, his feet will continue to grow at that steeper angle until they reach the floor, shortening his toe by over an inch as if by magic

The "camped under" stance that he has in the full photo is typical of a horse who is mildly achey in all four feet. They tend, obviously, to get a sore back as well.

CPTrayes - I think you're right on all counts. My concern has been about getting the right diet and right exercise, but I'm feeling a little more confident now (it's good to 'talk' these things through with a few people sometimes!). Pink powder does contain a prebiotic (plus magox and biotin), which is one reason I thought it would be a good starting place. Nic has suggested feeding him on the new diet for a few weeks before removing the shoes, so I'll give that a shot.

 

[criso]

Ingredients of pink powder


Wheatfeed, Dicalcium phosphate, Maize, Brewers' yeast, Bitter orange peel (ripe), Whey protein powder, Methyl sulphonyl methane, White mineral oil, Sodium chloride, Fructo-oligosaccharides, Whey powder, Glutamine, Wheat protein, Magnesium oxide.