What would you do if your dog bit you?

[fine_and_dandy]

I got talking to someone earlier this week and something they said made me stop and think about it.

They got a rescue dog which from outside appearances seems like a lovely dog to be around. Friendly, likes to play etc. However, all is apparently not as I thought. If dog is doing things he wants on his terms, he is fine. But if they ask him to do something (even as basic as sit) he becomes very defiant and actively attempts to ignore them - even lowering his eyes to avoid eye contact to ignore them.

They've had dogs before and do classes etc.Over last week or so dog started with some behaviour which they weren't happy with. Walking as normal on lead and he jumps at them, grabs lead not far from hand and then throws himself on the floor and is quite aggressive with it. On one occasion he went in to bite them and on the other he succeeded. Apparently he will suddenly stop the behaviour and walk as normal.

I said that I would be frightened by that and said perhaps speak with the rescue he came from as all the paperwork says no sign of aggression etc.

How would you react to that and deal with it? They aren't stupid with dogs and what they've had previously they've trained very well. They are actually now quite wary of him. He doesn't go off lead due to his ignoring and no real recall and with these episodes there is no way he will now.

They were honest with rescue in their experience etc. One of them wants to persist with him and the other wants to return him because of how uneasy he makes them feel.
I've not been in this situation and can only think how hard it must be to return a dog to a rescue, but I have to admit, if it were me, I'd take him back. What would you do or what have you done if you were in the same position?

They've had him for about 6 months. He is estimated at being 3, is neutered and history is unknown. Breed wise he isn't of type (according to rescue vet) and whilst hard to say for certain, he looks like a staff or boxer x with something like a Labrador or similar. Paperwork does just say crossbreed and the above are only guesses on behalf of vet and owners.

He's been checked over by vets for any pain or issues but all clear.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Any aggressive behaviour need to be stopped immediately before it becomes established. As the dog is clearly untrained/not very well trained (you said your friends take the dog to classes but why is his recall so poor after 6 months?) I'd recommed the owners take him to the nearest Kennel Club training class, pronto. It's very likely his behaviour can be sorted with regular, proper training.

In the meantime, he needs to be muzzled when out on walkies.

Boxers/staffies need lots and lots of exercise - is he getting enough?

If a few weeks of training doesn't start to make a difference to his behaviour then it'd be best if he was rehomed but I don't imagine there are too many people who'd be prepared to take on a poorly trained, aggressive, adult dog :-(

Is it really fair to expect the rescue to take him back after 6 months now that he has behaviour issues he didn't have when your friends took him on?

 

[fine_and_dandy]

I agree with a lot of the points made. The rescue have said that he would have to be returned to them if they can no longer have him as it is a clause in the contract and have offered to because they are concerned they got him wrong. The rescue apparently said (I've heard this second hand and not first) in a telephone call that they thought he was a little stubborn in his last week with them and have put his previous placid personality down to him feeling unwell after castration and kennel cough. They have conceded that they perhaps didn't have the full picture of him because of this.

I should have clarified - he has had one on one training and class training. The dog trainer has said that whilst he has improved to some degree, his personality is such that his habits are hard to break. She has said he is one of the more difficult dogs she has worked with, because he is so defiant to being asked to do something and if he doesn't want to, he simply won't.

They have said they could have coped with most things but the aggression is a problem. They have muzzled him now but he does still try apparently. He gets plenty of exercise and they are home (work from home) so he gets plenty of attention and is taken out for at least an hour 3 or 4 times a day. They have a lovely place surrounded by countryside so they are quite interesting walks.

I do feel for them and don't envy their predicament. As I said earlier, I don't think I could keep him in the circumstances.

 

[{97702}]

My guess would be that a previous owner taught him to do that as a game - although I would look to correct the behaviour immediately it certainly wouldnt concern me and I wouldn't classify him as an aggressive dog as they seem to have done. In fact one of my own dogs (who I got from Cayla on here) occasionally does something similar - she will grab her lead and 'worry' it, rolling around on the floor as she does so. If my hand happened to be in the way when she made her grab for the lead then I suppose I could theoretically get bitten but I wouldnt count it as a bite, just an accident - perhaps that is what has happened with this dog?

I would strongly encourage them to switch to another dog trainer as the one they have appears to be totally out of his/her depth from your description. I also don't understand what makes the owners 'uneasy' about the dogs behaviour, but then I have never been scared of any dog in my life

 

[AdorableAlice]

Surely with all the effort that has gone into the dog there is only one final decision to be made, especially if there are children in the household.

 

[Dobiegirl]

From what youve said Im reading it as a wilful stubborn dog who is taking the p***, not being able to see your friends interaction with him its extremely difficult to give advice. The habit of jumping up and grabbing the lead would have me putting him on a choke chain and when he jumped for the lead I would reprimand him. You havnt said what the circumstances were when he bit them, if it was the jumping up and grabbing the lead and this was allowed to happen regularly without correction its going to continue as learned behaviour.

 

[moosea]

My guess would be that a previous owner taught him to do that as a game - although I would look to correct the behaviour immediately it certainly wouldn't concern me and I wouldn't classify him as an aggressive dog as they seem to have done.

This.

If it was me I probably start by giving a firm 'NO!' when he did it. I'd think about using a flexi lead if possible so that I could walk on and ignore the behaviour.

As for the recall I'd find a large enclosed space and when he ignored my recall I'd leave and pretend I'd left him - give him a few mins to think about it before I returned.

Surely with all the effort that has gone into the dog there is only one final decision to be made, especially if there are children in the household.

I'm assuming that the final decision would be to over react or to remind everyone that there are children involved???

 

[{97702}]

I'm assuming that the final decision would be to over react or to remind everyone that there are children involved???

Like

 

[AdorableAlice]

This.




I'm assuming that the final decision would be to over react or to remind everyone that there are children involved???

A pet dog is meant to be a pleasure to have around, not something that bites you when it is asked to do something. Of course it can be muzzled and kept on the lead and coming from a rescue who is to know what the poor animal may have experienced in the past. What is the point of keeping a pet dog that cannot be trusted.

 

[springtime1331]

Our patterdale dog had quite a few aggression issues when we rescued him, all revolving around him not wanting to do things we asked or us asking him to stop doing things he wanted to do. If you tried to back up requests with force he would become very aggressive, snarling and snapping etc. luckily he has improved with age - he was 1 year old and unneutered when we got him and now is 5 years old. For our boy, we think a lot of his issues revolved around trust or lack of. He'd been passed round a lot and lived on the streets. The key with him was not to escalate the issue if he got wound up. Rightly or wrongly, I'd grown up with dogs with the attitude that if they growled at you, you smacked them and if they continued you smacked them harder. This is like red rag to a bull for our boy, distraction and avoiding the issue in the first place has enabled him to settle and he is 99% better than he was when we got him. Treats work for him to, for example a previous problem would have been, dog doesn't want to leave a certain room, maybe the room with the front door in when someone knocks on the door. He won't leave and you then grab his collar, he growls and snaps etc. instead, when the door goes and we want him out the room, instead we get him a treat and he comes willingly. Even better, we have a dog door so he can't go in the room in the first place. So my advice is, let him settle, 6 months for a rescue isn't that long and find ways around the problems without resorting to dominating behaviour. You have to be committed though, and I so wonder if the dog is picking up that one person isn't that committed to keeping him.

 

[fine_and_dandy]

I honestly don't know anymore that what I've posted about them. I did suggest to them about considering another trainer as fresh eyes if you like, but that isn't a knowledgeable dog person speaking! I also agree that the dog will pick up on the uneasiness or one of them not wanting him.

Tough call.

 

[moosea]

What is the point of keeping a pet dog that cannot be trusted.

I hate to tell you this ..... NO do can be trusted 100% and especially not around children.

 

[TarrSteps]

True, but a situation with children involved and two owners who don't seem to agree on how to proceed is a test for any dog, let alone a tricky one.

My youngest dog was badly abused but also has quite a 'tough' temperament (as do her siblings) and I would not have taken her in with children. She is much better now, with lots of hard work, but I still have to be careful with her. I would not 'trust' any dog 100% but the older, easier one of mine would simply not be as much work in a family situation and there would be less risk because of that.

I don't think we always respect animals enough as individuals. We think we can 'train' anything but they have minds and emotions of their own, too. Thinking we can wedge every peg into any hole is sometimes giving ourselves too much credit and the animals not enough.

 

[Copperpot]

My dobie bit my Dad once. She was having a phantom pregnancy and had collected various items that were her "babies". I was allowed to touch the babies but when my Dad went to, she bit him. She is 8 now and that was 7 years ago and she has never showed any sign of aggression since. It didn't alter my trust in her.

However a rescue dog we were fostering bit my OH several times a week, he would have bitten me too except I moved quicker. He destroyed my trust in him. I felt I couldn't cuddle him and interact with him as you never knew when he was going to turn. Also one of our other dogs was quite distressed when he attacked my OH. He's a big strong dog and we felt that the time would come when he felt he would need to step in and we didn't want this.

I found it impossible to live with a dog I couldn't trust.

 

[dollyanna]

My boy had a lot of issues that appeared a month after he came to me (he was 2 1/2). He has bitten me, tried many more times, and bitten members of my family (I lived on my own, they just saw him when visiting). There is a long story behind it all, but on the surface it would have been very easy to describe him as aggressive, stubborn etc but in reality he was very very worried about most situations, and unfortunately the way he expressed that worry was with aggression. Once I realised this, I turned everything on its head, never punished him, at all, ever, took every opportunity to build his trust in me and self confidence, did loads and loads of clicker training which did wonders for him, and learned how to listen to him at all times. It isn't easy, it is hard work to keep the positive mindset at all times, and it hard sometimes to see how to turn it around, but it is possible, and my boy now is the happiest dog alive. He still has worries, but he just asks me to take care of them for him, and as soon as I do he is happy again. He has shown no aggression towards me for a long time now. Because of his history, if he is put in a situation he can't cope with and not listened to when he warns, he will still bite, but I can't remember the last time this happened because I learned how to listen. He is a fantastic dog now, I wouldn't be without him, and our relationship surpasses most other dog-owner relationships, but we constantly communicate and he is allowed to express his feelings. He has lovely manners in and out the house, is trained to a high level, I am not a namby-pamby dog owner. Yes, in the early days it was very very hard at times, and I have to say if I had lived with anyone else who couldn't have been 100% on board with dealing with him that way then it would have been much harder (family members were generally bitten when they didn't listen to the "rules"), and if I had children around then I don't think it would have been possible, but after my experiences I do think many dogs who are labelled as stubborn and/or aggressive are just not being heard or given chance to express their concerns, or the effort isn't being put in to work out what actually motivates them or worries them.

In this situation I don't know what I would do, if everyone in the house isn't committed then the dog might well be better off back in rescue, but it does sound like a different trainer might be needed if the current one is at a loss.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

In this situation I don't know what I would do, if everyone in the house isn't committed then the dog might well be better off back in rescue, but it does sound like a different trainer might be needed if the current one is at a loss.

Ditto this basically.

I'm not a dog expert, but BEFORE handing back to the rescue (who frankly maybe shouldn't have re-homed the dog with this family in the first place methinks) I'd look at the following:

Feed (get an expert if needed to assess and follow their advice)

Behaviour: ditto what others have said about getting someone different to look at the whole situation and advise accordingly. Like horses, feed can be absolutely fundamental and just might make the difference between exuberance and manageability.

Exercise: perhaps the dog needs intellectual stimulation, some constructive training games, or perhaps even have a go at agility? This would give it some mental stimulus - maybe this is what it needs?? Just a thought.

Sorry can't offer any more advice. Though think that if OP is committed to keeping the dog, they need to ditch their current "expert" and find someone who has the right approach.

 

[CorvusCorax]

As to the original thread title, it would depend on the circumstances, and if the dog actually intended to do me harm (there's a big difference between a proper, bone crushing bite and a worried warning snap, a cowardly nibble and run, self-defence if you accidentally stand on them or shut their tail in a door or if they miss a ball or a toy and get your hand instead)
If it was the former I'd have to decide how much I actually liked the dog and whether it warranted a trip to the vet - either way, I'd like to think it wouldn't be happening again and I'd also like to think I would not be handing it on to someone else to sort out. I'd rather PTS.

As to the dog in this thread - I really don't think any of us can give blind advice over the internet (and I know we're all guilty of that!!). None of us know about it's previous history, parentage, the triggers, the reaction from the owners (who are in conflict themselves as well as in conflict with their dog) which all need to be seen first hand. They need to make a plan one way or another and stick to it, otherwise it is hugely unfair on the dog.

 

[Honey08]

I agree with a lot of people on here in that you need to find what works for the dog, be it treats, toys, shouts to stop this behaviour. Finding the reason for it is the main thing. Reading the initial post, it stood out that this dog has not been off the lead for six months, so has never had the chance to run off any energy. With our second rescue, who had had four homes in his first year of life, and who was a hyper dog, running around was the main fix to all his problems. We are lucky that we have fields and another dog, so were able to just let them go in a well fenced field from day one. Would it be possible to find a local farmer and ask to pay to use an empty field once or twice a week to let him run, chase balls, have fun with you? I really think freedom is a major thing for an animal, exercise (under saddle for a horse and on the lead for a dog) is not the same as having time to do what they want for a while. There is a man who walks his dog past us daily, who refuses to let the dog off the lead because it "goes mad and won't come back". One day I persuaded him to let the dog off with ours in the field. It did indeed go off like a popped balloon, but followed our dogs back to our house where we caught him. The dog was knackered, but much more relaxed..

 

[Maesfen]

If one of my dogs bit me I'd go ape ***** at them but then all we have just now are ones we bred ourselves.

I still wouldn't tolerate a deliberate bite from any dog whether a rescue or not and if it repeated it, it would be having a quick walk to the vets; there are plenty more dogs about that are sociable, happy creatures so why put up with anything less especially if it's meant to be a family pet.

 

[Spudlet]

I would want to know why it happened as that would have a huge bearing on what happened next and how the situation was managed. Big difference for example between a dog that snaps because it's afraid (and with a rescue dog often we don't know what has happened, meaning the dog may have had bad experiences with things that seem quite innocuous to us), a dog that is genuinely being aggressive, and one that may have a medical cause (as was the case with a dear friend's dog, which unfortunately developed a brain tumour and became aggressive as a result).

If he's lowering his head to avoid eye contact, that could be an appeasing signal from him (dogs may do this to relieve the tension in a situation) as opposed to defiance - it might be worth discussing with the rescue how the dog was handled there as from your posts it doesn't sound like this was an issue there - which make me consider whether or not there may be some issue with handling? This is only speculation however, as obviously none of us on here have seen the dog in question.

 

[bonny]

If one of my dogs bit me I'd go ape ***** at them but then all we have just now are ones we bred ourselves.

I still wouldn't tolerate a deliberate bite from any dog whether a rescue or not and if it repeated it, it would be having a quick walk to the vets; there are plenty more dogs about that are sociable, happy creatures so why put up with anything less especially if it's meant to be a family pet.

Agree with this, why anyone would put up with a dog that bites is beyond me....I also can't help but think that far too many people on here and in real life are making excuses for their aggressive dogs, everybody can;t have a rescue dog that only attacks because it's had a bad experience !

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ps what happened at vets...bloods, x-rays, scans etc? Or just a quick once over?

 

[lexiedhb]

When you say bite, do you mean breaking the skin?

 

[AdorableAlice]

I hate to tell you this ..... NO do can be trusted 100% and especially not around children.

I realise that, and with that thought in mind why would anyone want to keep a dog that has shown aggressive tendencies, rescued or not, with or without children in the home. What pleasure is there in keeping an animal that has a poor temperament regardless of what has caused it or why.

Many years ago a rescue dog removed the face of a 4 year old little girl, she is the daughter of a friend. The little girl is grown up now and a well respected doctor in profession, but her life has been affected for ever by the incident. The dog had shown some instability and the parents had been agonising about what to do. The final decision was taken out of their hands in a tragic moment.

 

[ester]

It seems odd to me that this dog has been ok for the previous 5 odd months as you say that lead behaviour has only started n the last week or so?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Some behaviours are not displayed until maturity. Or as mentioned it may be a pain response. Or in some cases a dog learns 'if I do x, then y happens/if I don't do a, then b happens' so if in the first instance a behaviour worked out well for the dog, the dog can repeat it.

 

[ester]

I suppose that's what I was sort of getting at re. the pain response. Also wondered if at approx 3 the dog was no entering the terrible 2s stage - though certainly bow down to you guys opinions on that one!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Depends on the breed. Mine have always matured at about 3.5!!!
Aarrghhh!

 

[Copperpot]

We have fostered 4 other rescues, one of whom had been badly treated and they never showed any aggression to us. You could tell they were worried by certain things but with time and quiet, patient behaviour they all came round.

Not the last one thou. I don't actually think he had been abused. I think he had used aggression to get his own way. The rescue told us not to reprimand him if he bit, but when you have a dog hanging off your foot who won't let go and your foot is bleeding quite badly, what do you do. It was never a nip and once we got him off, he'd come back for a second or third bite. My OH and a friend both have scars from him.

I felt bad when I had to say we no longer wanted to foster him. I felt so guilty. But we had almost become prisoners in our own home, my OH could not get into the kitchen unless he was prepared to get bitten.

 

[stargirl88]

Impossible to say - from what you've written, to me it doesn't sound like "proper" direct aggression to the owner. Also agree with spudlet - I often see dogs totally ignoring their owners sinple request for a 'sit'.... and wont pay a blind bit of attention when training a down. Why? Change the handlers posture and voice and you have a different dog. If they can't handle a situation, they switch off, which is almost always mistaken for stubborness (yes yes I'm aware genuinely stubborn dogs exist!).

Anyhoo, new trainer would be the only advice anyone on here can really give you/the owners.