What would you do in this situation?

[shadowboy]

Advice for a close friend who is devistated...

Friend took her dog for an evening walk- her dog is a large GSD. It was about 7pm and dark. It the village is a large 20 acre field with a network of public footpaths. She was walked said dog there countless times. Last night her dog shot off in the dark towards two spaniels to say hello, the lady with 2 spaniels obviously (and unsuprisingly so) was shocked to see a huge dog running out in the darkness- however friend was wearing a headtorch and could be seen coming up the footpath for a good few meters, the lady however was in pitch black (no light etc) Friends GSD started playing with one of loose spaniels and much noise and running around happened- GSD jumped up onto Spaniel in over-exhuberance to which lady shouted get-oo and kicked GSD in side. GSD yelped and laid to the floor. Lady put lead on her two dogs and walked off into the darkness.

GSD now in vets with broken rib and major surgery and huge vet bill (although will eventually be able to claim back as insured) However, friend is shocked at what this woman did and wonders if she should chat to her in the village (she knows what house they live at as has seen the spaniels yapping through the gate but doesnt know the owners)

She was so upset this morning as she feels so bad for the dog ...as she had to phone OH to get car to get dog from field to drive to vets.

 

[Honey08]

Crikey, that was some kick! Poor GSD.

Perhaps she was really scared, and genuinely didn't see your friend coming.

It would be very hard to say anything to her - a, you don't have any real proof that it was her, and b, it may get nasty and emotional.

Could you post more general letters/flyers in the area (not just to her) for help and information, saying your was dog left kicked and wounded by someone walking with two dogs on 26/11 at x.pm leaving the dog in major distress with a broken rib an requiring surgery.. Any information greatly welcomed... At the very least it would make her feel guilty, or be aware of what she had done.

 

[Bosworth]

looking at it from the other lady's point of view - she was walking her two spaniels when suddenly one was attacked by a large GSD. She managed to kick it off her dog and then got out of there quickly before it had chance to get up and attack again. She possibly felt it was going to get her. I am very sorry your friends dog has got a broken rib BUT...... my brother and I were attacked as small children by a GSD that the owner claimed was just playing - it was just playing off lead on a public footpath and the owner made no atempt to call it off us when it leapt on us. My brother was bitten in his face.

Your friend should have called the dog back immediately she saw it running towards the other dog, and if it doesn;t respond immediately she should not have it off the lead. She really owes the woman an appology as I am sure I would be pretty scared seeing a large dog come running out of the dark and attacking my dog. I have choked a dalmation (not on a lead) with its own collar as it had my lurcher (on a lead) in its mouth and was ragging it. Owner again told me it was playing, my lurcher was bleeding and screaming and there was no sign of its owner doing anything to stop it.

 

[Ravenwood]

Crikey What an awful situation.

Having just read Bosworth's post - I really do tend to agree.

Did your friend call her dog back? The lady with the spaniels must have been shouting and your friend must have heard her?

Having said that, I have never kicked a dog - I have pushed them away with my foot to get them off and shouted.

I hope your friend's dog makes a speedy recovery but personally I wouldn't be persuing it as there (arguably) seems to be fault on both sides.

 

[galaxy]

I think I would probably claim on my insurance and move on...

It doesn't sound as though your friend was close enough, seeing as it was dark, to properly know exactly what her dog was doing and whether it was "play" or getting way out of hand. It sounds as if the spaniels owner was close up and didn't like the way the GSD was playing.... Although there is NO EXCUSE for kicking a dog like that! However as someone who has been bitten badly when taking someone else dog by the collar I can kind of see why if someone thought their dog was being attacked they may resort to it (although not with that force!). Personally I would scream at the dogs owner to get their dog off my dog now.....

 

[shadowboy]

yes dog was called back but it was too late as GSD was already playing, they definately were playing as GSD is only 8 mnths and has never growled at another dog since they had it. It has good recall but by the time she had turned after closing the gate the dog had reached the other dogs. All dogs were off the lead, and understandably she would have been shocked to see a large dog hurtling towards hers, but the kick was so severe it broke a rib and the dog was in so much pain it couldn't move from the floor. I think that considring the owner was within sight and there was no attack it was severe- but obviously I see this from her point of view- after all she's a friend. but to break a dogs rib is quite some kick.

 

[shadowboy]

I think I would probably claim on my insurance and move on...

It doesn't sound as though your friend was close enough, seeing as it was dark, to properly know exactly what her dog was doing and whether it was "play" or getting way out of hand. It sounds as if the spaniels owner was close up and didn't like the way the GSD was playing.... Although there is NO EXCUSE for kicking a dog like that! However as someone who has been bitten badly when taking someone else dog by the collar I can kind of see why if someone thought their dog was being attacked they may resort to it (although not with that force!). Personally I would scream at the dogs owner to get their dog off my dog now.....

the lady and her dogs were close enough that friend could see them all in the dark with a head torch- hence she knows exactly which dogs they were from the village. Yes I think that it what she was going to do- but her emotions are high at the moment as pup is still in vets so she is obviously very worried.

 

[Pix]

I do see Bosworths point of view, and for that reason I'm always rather careful to make sure my GSD is initially on a lead when meeting new people or dogs, so that I can be sure they aren't worried by his size/breed. Having said that, there will be times now and then when he spots the other dog before I do and rushes off to say hello. Whilst I can usually recall him away from another dog, I'd never be brave enough to say my recall is 100% every time, every day, every place. Hence trying to get the lead on first every time, just in case. Furthermore, there are a lot of people who don't seem to be able to tell the difference between boisterous play and aggression (and this includes people insisting their dog is 'playing' when it's obviously not, as well as those that start shrieking every time their dog engages in a quick round of 'chase the new bestest friend and then jump on him!').

As for kicking the dog, I'm pretty sure the person in question must have been in a real panic, or they would never do something so daft? Surely if the dog really was aggressive and received a kick he'd go for whatever was in between him and his target (in this case, a leg)?

Hope the poor GSD in question gets better soon x

-ETS, having read this back, it sounds a lot like I'm pointing the finger at your friend. I'm not. My pup is 7 months, large, and enthusiastic. If somebody caused him that kind of damage when they could have easily called over to me 'please get your dog' (which duh, I'd be in the process of doing anyway) I would be incomprehensibly livid.

 

[shadowboy]

I hope he recovers too as Tassy has really fallen for him and they engoy long walks together- he seems to get her to liven up and play and forget her age.... but he didnt do anything just yelped and lay on the floor- he wouldn't get up either friend is worried he's going to become very nervous around strangers in future.

 

[Pix]

I would suppose it would depend on if he 'understood' where the blow came from. It might be he will think 'playing with new dogs = pain' in which case he would associate it with the dogs, not the people. Not that having him nervous of dogs is an ideal situation Could she perhaps arrange some very happy meetings with other, friendly dogs once he is feeling well enough?

 

[PerdixPerdix]

I have got to say, if a large dog, or a strange dog of any breed, jumped on my dog in the dark i would be more than likely compelled to kick out at it.

ive been in this situation before when a strange dog, off the lead, has bothered my dog, who would sooner take anything elses throat out, and i have had to take evasive action, in this instance it was a springer so i could grab its scruff and hold it back, but with a GSD i would probably kick out.

it may be terrible for your friend but she was being irresponsible, what would have happened if the other dog was a rotty or similar large breed that did not like other dogs, it could have been much much worse.

hopefully this is a lesson learned.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

It's an awful shame for the GSD and his owner must be terribly shocked, but I would say that in the dark, she should have had him on the lead (and so should the spangles' owner).

Bear was bowled over by a loose GSD yesterday and screamed his head off. Had I been nearby, I'm afraid my foot would also have come into play.

The dozens times Brig has been attacked, if I had been nearer, the attacking dog would have felt the full force of a hefty size 8

It's in public and I'm fairly sure the law says something about controlling dogs: the owner should have called him straight back for his sake: she can't know that the spaniels were friendly.

I hope he heals quick and that she's insured.

 

[galaxy]

ive been in this situation before when a strange dog, off the lead, has bothered my dog, who would sooner take anything elses throat out, and i have had to take evasive action, in this instance it was a springer so i could grab its scruff and hold it back, but with a GSD i would probably kick out.

The dog that bit me was a family golden retriever!! Not in an exciting situation, just trying to lead him somewhere by the collar! I'll never take any dog (other than my own!) by the collar again. My arm was a mess!!!

 

[raspberryripple]

I think the Spaniel owner totally over reacted and if she is nervous of other dogs playing with her own dogs, she shouldn't be walking them off lead in a dark open field.

There are too many dog owners who panic at the sight of other dogs or react like this and it does my head in. Size/breed shouldn't even be the issue. I've had plenty of smaller dogs run over and yap at my dog in play or aggression. I wouldn't dream of kicking them away but I've had 2 people kick my dog away just because he went over to say hello (calmly) to their dog just because he is bigger than theirs. They got what for.

I would be furious and would go round and explain what she has caused both mentally and emotionally to a young dog.

I really hope your friends GSD doesn't end up fear aggressive now because of that woman.

Rant over.

 

[raspberryripple]

I have got to say, if a large dog, or a strange dog of any breed, jumped on my dog in the dark i would be more than likely compelled to kick out at it.

ive been in this situation before when a strange dog, off the lead, has bothered my dog, who would sooner take anything elses throat out, and i have had to take evasive action, in this instance it was a springer so i could grab its scruff and hold it back, but with a GSD i would probably kick out.it may be terrible for your friend but she was being irresponsible, what would have happened if the other dog was a rotty or similar large breed that did not like other dogs, it could have been much much worse.

hopefully this is a lesson learned.

I think that is a completely different situation though, you knew your dog would be aggressive and you were being responsible by having him on the lead and the other owner should have seen you had a dog on the lead and called her one back, as a dog on a lead in an open space usually means they don't socialise well or aren't trained to recall yet etc. You had to get the dog away for it's own sake so scruffing was your only option at that time.
In this case, both owners trusted their dogs were friendly and it would seem that they were just playing.

Why would anyone chance kicking a large dog anyway? A fair amount of dogs would have your leg in defence!

 

[Pix]

it may be terrible for your friend but she was being irresponsible, what would have happened if the other dog was a rotty or similar large breed that did not like other dogs, it could have been much much worse.

Then it would surely be on a lead and muzzled? As the owner of a large breed, if he were to become dog aggressive at any point I would muzzle him. I wouldn't expect other owners to know that I am there, sat in the dark, or around the corner in the woods. And I wouldn't expect other owners to be able to get their dogs back in the dark, or in the woods, every single time. Even great recall will fail now and then. It would be my responsibility to ensure my aggressive dog couldn't harm others, and that includes those whose owners let them hoon around a bit on a walk. Why the hell should everyone else be super vigilant just in case they come across my aggressive dog?

Nevertheless I'm getting off track. I can see both points of view. However, wouldn't really advise grabbing collars/sticking the boot in. If only because if the dog really is aggressive, you getting seriously nailed.

I do wonder a little if people would be more sympathetic if the dog with the broken ribs was somebodies playful springer puppy, or other similar 'friendly' breed. But then maybe I'm just cynical Either way I'm out of this thread before I start writing whimsical essays re: a utopian world where everybody has a friendly dog and we have diplomatic panels of dog owners who all love each other and share icecream while watching 'the plague dogs' on DVD. Or other such sickly sweet sh**e

 

[raspberryripple]

.

I do wonder a little if people would be more sympathetic if the dog with the broken ribs was somebodies playful springer puppy, or other similar 'friendly' breed.

Agreed!

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

well there are faults on both sides?! but it must have been an effing good kick to break a rib. sorry but if i were the owner of the young GSD i would be hot footing round to her house with the vet bill she personally has caused a big injury to a third party, she will argue self defense but the gsd is still a puppy and from the op didnt injure the other dogs, just played in a boisterous way but the owner inflicted a fracture of the rib... and claiming against either her pet insurance or her household policy. if all dogs were off the lead then they were all fair game.

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

i think legal advice is the way to go. either through the gsd pet policy or your household insurance should have a legal line. record your vet treatment, vet bills and vets opinion. a kick resulting in fracture, even in self defense would be gbh in human terms!

 

[PerdixPerdix]

if her dog was off the lead and therefore uncontrolled, then there is little she will be able to do...

rasperryripple, why muzzle a dog if you have control of it? if i have dog on lead and someone else allows their dog to approach mine then if it gets bitten its their fault and not mine im afraid.

pix, it is very different if a playful springer puppy approached a dog than a fully grown GSD who then jumped upon it.

ofcourseyoucan, the owners of the springers would have just as much right to seek legal action if they claimed the GSD was being agressive (which she obviously thought it was)

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I do wonder a little if people would be more sympathetic if the dog with the broken ribs was somebodies playful springer puppy, or other similar 'friendly' breed.

The one that used to attack Brig every time we encountered it was a beautiful Springer.

I've never considered GSDs dangerous/scary? The one next door is a total sweetheart.

Breed shouldn't come into it: the stupidity of both owners (sorry, OP, but I think your friend was really foolish) in not having dogs on leads in the dark is almost beyond belief.

 

[Pix]

if her dog was off the lead and therefore uncontrolled, then there is little she will be able to do...

rasperryripple, why muzzle a dog if you have control of it? if i have dog on lead and someone else allows their dog to approach mine then if it gets bitten its their fault and not mine im afraid.

pix, it is very different if a playful springer puppy approached a dog than a fully grown GSD who then jumped upon it.

ofcourseyoucan, the owners of the springers would have just as much right to seek legal action if they claimed the GSD was being agressive (which she obviously thought it was)

Sorry, I know I said I was out of this thread, and I will be after this, I promise

Re: the muzzle. Lead or not, if the dog can damage another dog and is likely to do so should another dog get close, you cannot simply say it is the other owners fault. What if you are passing by on a narrow path and it lunges? If YOUR dog is aggressive then YOU should take responsibility for it, no matter how lax you think other owners are (and I would agree that people who let their dogs run wild and wind up others are a nuisance, even when it's an accident). At the end of the day, it is your dog that will do the damage, their dog is merely a nuisance.

Re: spinger or GSD leaping on your dog. (Springer being an example here) what is the difference exactly? Other than breed- and therefore looks and size? The dog with the broken ribs is an 8 month old puppy, so let's pretend for a moment it's an 8 month old springer puppy instead. Would you have the same reaction? Yes, an 8 month old GSD bounding around is heavier and could accidentally hurt a much smaller dog, but it is still just play. An 8 month springer could just as easily knock over a small Chi or JRT pup. It doesn't mean it deserves a broken rib and serious surgery. Yes, you do need to take more care with a large pup to ensure they pick appropriate playmates but to advocate sticking the boot in to such an extent that the puppy in question can't get off the floor, for the sake of one fairly simple slip on the owners part..... That is just wicked in my opinion.

 

[shadowboy]

The pup is off the lead in the dark because it is always walked in the dark now that the clocks are changed other than when the dog walker comes at lunchtime. The other owner also had her dogs off the lead. I wonder what your comments would have been had we kicked her dog?
I can totally see is to be scary but seeing that Buzz is known round the village- because he's so friendly and has been to the local primary school with dog walker at home time to get used to the kids/car/push-chairs I can honestly say he is the safest dog of that age I know. He is 8 months old and a kick like that while it will heal quickly due to his age may take much more time mentally.

I think the issue was she was not carrying a light- had my friend seen this she probably would not have let him off- but once in the feild saw no light so let him off to play - her dogs were also loose- they were also playing- it just happens that this lady assumed because he was bigger that he was being dangerous. She did not call to my friend to ask her to put her dog on the lead and also made no move to put her own dogs on their leads, She shouted get-off then booted him. To me thats over-reacting but then I can't but help thinking about Buzz's discomfort

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

as i said previously faults on both sides. but to break a rib meant she used excessive force AND caused greivious bodily harm. talk to the pet insurance co legal dept. poor dog i have seen a dog kicked hard by a horse and NOT got a broken rib.

 

[PerdixPerdix]

my comment to you had it been you doing the kicking would have been the same, you still should have had your dog on a lead, but i wouldnt blame you for kicking out.

pix, keeping an agressive dog on a lead IS being responsible. the dog doesnt deserve the kick in the rib, no , its owner does. she was being irresponsible.

what would people be saying if the other lady had a small child who was terrified of other dogs with her and the GSD had knocked her over???? ive seen it happen and a close friend of mine was terrified of dogs as a child because a ''friendly'' dog jumped on her when she was 3.

be responsible and keep your dog on a lead unless you are in a safe space where you can see there are no other dogs, no excuses!

 

[shadowboy]

as i said previously faults on both sides. but to break a rib meant she used excessive force AND caused greivious bodily harm. talk to the pet insurance co legal dept. poor dog i have seen a dog kicked hard by a horse and NOT got a broken rib.

I wondered if she must of had steel toe cap boots or used her heel? Or perhaps its because he's so young eisier to break?

 

[shadowboy]

my comment to you had it been you doing the kicking would have been the same, you still should have had your dog on a lead, but i wouldnt blame you for kicking out.

pix, keeping an agressive dog on a lead IS being responsible. the dog doesnt deserve the kick in the rib, no , its owner does. she was being irresponsible.

what would people be saying if the other lady had a small child who was terrified of other dogs with her and the GSD had knocked her over???? ive seen it happen and a close friend of mine was terrified of dogs as a child because a ''friendly'' dog jumped on her when she was 3.

be responsible and keep your dog on a lead unless you are in a safe space where you can see there are no other dogs, no excuses!

I think its harsh to say my friend should be kicked in the ribs!!

Buzz would not knock a child over as he has been taught to lie down in front of children- she's not a stupid person and has a 7 year old daugher who Buzz is excellent with.

I let Tassy off on the beach and sometimes there may be other dogs about- if the reaction to her would be to kick her because she's big maybe I shouldnt walk her off the lead ever- as there are very few places that are isolated these days.

 

[raspberryripple]

rasperryripple, why muzzle a dog if you have control of it? if i have dog on lead and someone else allows their dog to approach mine then if it gets bitten its their fault and not mine im afraid.

I didn't mention a muzzle?! I said you were being the responsible owner by having control of your dog on the lead.
My dog is lead aggressive (fine off lead) and as far as i'm concerned, if a dog owner allows their dog to run over to mine when they can see he is on the lead and doesn't call their dog back, I won't be accountable if the other dog winds mine up and mine bites theirs! I would also take the blame if my dog went up to a dog on the lead and caused said dog to attack mine.

 

[Pix]

Oh honestly, don't bring kids into it. That's an emotive argumentative ploy that has nothing to do with the present situation.

The lady who did the kicking didn't have a light apparently, thus made no effort to make herself visible in a dark field. IMO that's a huge fail if you happen to want others to be able to see you and keep their dogs away from you. Oddly, the woman with the damaged puppy did have a light, making her visible.

Yes, keeping an aggressive dog on a lead is responsible. It would be simply idiotic to do otherwise. But if you know there is a chance you will meet other dogs that are off lead or even pass by close to other dogs then a muzzle is a sensible precaution. Just in case. Of course, this is irrelevant in the situation at hand since all dogs were off lead and thus we can assume friendly The muzzle only came up as you asked what the outcome would have been if the other dogs happened to be large and aggressive.

Should dogs be allowed to approach others as they see fit regardless of circumstance? No. But if you walk your own dogs, off lead in the dark, in a field used by other dog walkers, making no effort to announce your presence then don't be surprised that other people don't realise you're there and let their own dogs off-lead as well. These things happen. There's no call to be thumping your obviously concrete-filled boot into every curious and playful pup that comes your way. Especially if you can see the other owners flashlight and yell 'please call/fetch your dog' instead.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Well don't think I can be accused of being anti GSD but I can see both sides in this situation. Tbh I would not have an 8 month old GSD off lead in the dark, other than in a secure fenced area, they are such babies at that age and are open to distraction or being spooked. It does sound as if his recall isn't brilliant if they were unable to call him back once he had started playing, supposing he had put up as rabbit or similar and taken off after that?
However, to kick him enough to break his ribs does sound totally OT, but as has been said not sure you could prove anything so probably not worth pursuing, but definitely spread the word around that he has been so badly injured and she may just have a pang of conscience. Hope he is soon on the mend.
Slightly o/t on Friday my son was mortified as he had been out in the fields playing football with Evie and he totally mistimed a kick and got her on the side of the head, he was wearing steel toe caps. He said she ducked and looked mortified for a minute then carried on playing, I always knew she had a thick skull.