What would you do? Long post...

[lelabell]

I'm really stuck between a rock and a hard place just now so needing some opinions.
As some of you may know I bought a horse in September which seemed perfect for me. He then broke his knee 2 weeks later which we did not know about at the time. He had 2 abscesses in his right fore hoof as well as being lame on that side. We nerve blocked his foot and he was still lame so we Xrayed and found nothing. He was rested for a few weeks until his abscesses burst out. He then seemed fine so I did local SJ and dressage.
My first horse got pts in January and he still wasn't right by February. We re Xrayed his knee and found a fracture through his knee. So he was on strict box rest for February then restricted turnout for a month after that with Sedalin everyday, otherwise he did the wall of death in the hospital field.
Everyday was a challenge to keep him sane and one day he jumped out the field (still with a broken knee) from a standstill. The fence was 1.20m.
Since then he gradually got more turnout and started to walk in hand but was still going mad and jumping out of field at night so he was then stabled at night.

We did lots of walk work and lots of long reining to get used to things again but he started getting naughty so I got on and rode to see if that would help his mind concentrate. He was fine for a couple weeks then got naughty again so I started some small trots. Hes getting naughty again but he still can only do small bits of trot. I took him into a dressage test - intro just to see what he would be like and he was awful. No 4 feet on the ground at all and disgraced himself.
I'm scared to ride him now as he was going to jump into his field with me on him from the school.

The vet came out yesterday to check him for lameness and he was short on that leg but not lame. We trotted him up and then tried to lunge him.
He turned into the circle so I pushed him back out and he turned around and double barrled me, catching my arm in the process and knocked me to the ground. He then galloped round the school and jumped out into his field which is an 8ft drop the other side of the school.

My vet says he's dangerous, to me and himself. He needs to be in serious work to keep his mind sane but can't due to his knee.

What would you do in this situation? Bearing in mind I don't have the money to send him away for re schooling. There has been a few more scary incidents since I got him but this post is already very long. Apologies.

 

[njc]

Depends really on what turnout he can have now and or is likely to be allowed in the near future and what level of work he can do now and again for the future. Do you or the vet think that any of the naughtiness is a result of ongoing pain or is it frustration due to limited work and turnout
What feed does he have

 

[epeters91]

I feel for you as this is a very hard situation to be in! Will he ever recover enough to be able to jump again or is the jumping out of fields etc setting him back? I do think it sounds like the situation is getting more and more dangerous if I was in your position I would probably try to see if anyone would be interested in taking him on as a project depending on whether his knee will heal enough to let him jump it sounds like he's an amazing jumper so maybe someone would put in the work with him until he was ready to do his job again. If that wsn't an ption I would have to consider PTS, it sounds like he is very unhappy with life without work and all of this jumping out of fields could cause a big accident and he could very well hurt you or someone else.

Sorry I can't offer better advice I hope someone else can! Sending hugs your way xx

 

[misskk88]

Gosh, horses really do know how to stress us out at times don't they. Sorry to hear of your situation OP.

For me, there would only be two options to choose from. One would be IF his knee was able to heal to allow him a heavy workload and consistent routine, I would perhaps advertise him honestly as a project. However many people are disillusioned with their level of skill and just how much work and retraining horses like this can take. I would be seriously picky about whom he ended up with (ie they would need the right turnout facilities as well as skill and knowledge), although if he has behaved well, or is likely to again with the right workload, he could end up being a much happier, quieter horse. There is absolutely nothing wrong with admitting that you cannot cope with him as he is, and therefore would to give him every chance of a successful career/life (again, only if he is able to be in the right workload when/if he has recovered).

The second, and the one I would probably consider mostly would be the option to PTS. That would be based on the vets prognosis of a full recovery or not (have they mentioned anything regarding this yet?), as well as whether there was anyone suitable interested in him. If he is a danger to himself as well as his rider/handler, I would be seriously concerned that even with a heavy workload that the behaviour may continue.

Do they vets think there is any correlation between pain and behaviour, as well as a lack of work?

Thinking of you op.

 

[lelabell]

Depends really on what turnout he can have now and or is likely to be allowed in the near future and what level of work he can do now and again for the future. Do you or the vet think that any of the naughtiness is a result of ongoing pain or is it frustration due to limited work and turnout
What feed does he have

Well he is out 9-4 or there abouts and is happy with the horse he is with.
He will never do one day events but may still be able to do Lower level RC if his knee holds up. He has such a high pain threshold. He would soldier on if you let him but that's not fair.
He is on half doses of top spec feed with joint supplement and calmer.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Was he that stressed and unpredictable before the injury and box rest?

Could you move him somewhere that has 24/7 turnout with a stable herd in a big (preferably undulating/sloping) field? Ideally you want the horses to stay in the field too, so possibly look at retirement/injury liveries that offer field rest? I'm basically thinking about 'letting him down' for a few months to 1, calm his mind and 2, give the knee a bit more time to recover.

 

[LeannePip]

Is turning away in a large herd not an option, either now or in the not too distant future?

Sometimes being in the routine of a working horse; in and out daily, handled, fed, fussed etc with out the work is too much for some of them. Where as being completely let down in a big field with other horses in a retirement type situation with little human interferance apart from the normal checks, could see him mellow out and he would not be putting people in danger on a daily basis

If this really is not an option i would be considering PTS, i don't think i could pass on a horse like this.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I would agree with trying to put him somewhere calm with lots of grass and unchanging field companions. In the short term it would seem like he would do less damage to himself and you if he was a bit fat and chilled out!

 

[misskk88]

Was he that stressed and unpredictable before the injury and box rest?

Could you move him somewhere that has 24/7 turnout with a stable herd in a big (preferably undulating/sloping) field? Ideally you want the horses to stay in the field too, so possibly look at retirement/injury liveries that offer field rest? I'm basically thinking about 'letting him down' for a few months to 1, calm his mind and 2, give the knee a bit more time to recover.

Good point. Hadn't considered turning him away. That would be a third option for me too.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'd try field rest as soon as a place could possibly be arranged. The current arrangement is not working and he is becoming dangerous enough for PTS to be a serious option, what is there to gain by keeping him in the current regime?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Punt himout and forget about having a horse to ride in the short term. Mentally and physically it will do him the world of good. Let him get fat, lazy and be a horse again and you will find you will have a completely different horse to bring back in. Movement will be the best thing for the tendons and ligaments too. They need to rebuild and strengthen and they won't do that properly dancing about.

I have known 2 horses to break their accessory carpal bone - one straight up and down, the other a star frcture through it. The one with the complete break came back to race again. The one with the star fracture is just bck in work now and we shall see how he does.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

agree with those you say stick him out. I'd turn him away for the winter and let him physically and mentally get over the box rest. You've got nothing to lose right now doing that except time-might help you get over the stress too (had a horse go through extensive stifle rehab etc only to watch him fence hop at every available opportunity once he was out so I feel your pain! chucking him out 24/7 was a risk but he eventually came back pretty well).

 

[AmyMay]

Great advice from EKW.

 

[lelabell]

Unfortunately field rest isn't an option. He was turned away with other horses before, out all night bare minimum checks etc and he didn't cope. He paced the fence line, chewed all the wood, galloped like a mad man and then attacked another horse to the point where that horse had to get vet treatment.
I feel like ive let him, myself and everyone else down.. like this is a cop out option and im just being a big girl about things.

 

[JoJo_]

I'd consider PTS as it doesnt sound like any regime would suit him apart from lots of work and chances are his knee wont hold up to that. Its a hard choice to make but you have to weigh up the quality of life he has.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

just turn him out 24/7.

after an hour hurtling round(which cannot do more damage than jumping 8foot drops and rodeoing on the lunge) he will settle and can take all the time in the world to heal.

you can get on and do steady walk hacks knowing he wont be a tit.

you cant carry on as you are so this seems the only realistic option to try?

edit just seen your last post, can he go out in his own field but with company either side or just one small pony? got to be worth a final try? if he was out 24/7 AND being worked it might be better?

 

[PolarSkye]

just turn him out 24/7.

after an hour hurtling round(which cannot do more damage than jumping 8foot drops and rodeoing on the lunge) he will settle and can take all the time in the world to heal.

you can get on and do steady walk hacks knowing he wont be a tit.

you cant carry on as you are so this seems the only realistic option to try?

This. Best of luck - I know from firsthand experience how difficult it is to rehab a tricky, stressy horse.

P

 

[lelabell]

I'd consider PTS as it doesnt sound like any regime would suit him apart from lots of work and chances are his knee wont hold up to that. Its a hard choice to make but you have to weigh up the quality of life he has.

This is my thinking. He needs a hard work regime to chill him out but this will make him lame and then he would be PTS anyway. Im a very practical thinking person, but putting 2 horses down in one year is a bad one

just turn him out 24/7.

after an hour hurtling round(which cannot do more damage than jumping 8foot drops and rodeoing on the lunge) he will settle and can take all the time in the world to heal.

you can get on and do steady walk hacks knowing he wont be a tit.

you cant carry on as you are so this seems the only realistic option to try?

edit just seen your last post, can he go out in his own field but with company either side or just one small pony? got to be worth a final try? if he was out 24/7 AND being worked it might be better?

But after being turned out 24/7 for 2 months he was still unsafe as he was wired to the moon. He hated being turned out. He even took off when long reining and was going to jump out of the schooling field. We have tried his own field and he just popped across to see his chums. He needs deer fencing. Im stuck

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Were the other horses being removed from the field and then being put back in, when he was on 24/7 turnout before? Was he in work at the time or on complete field rest?

 

[lelabell]

Were the other horses being removed from the field and then being put back in, when he was on 24/7 turnout before? Was he in work at the time or on complete field rest?

They were field ornaments and he also had horses all around him. He was on rest as I've only been allowed to do something with him since Mid June. But we did start taking him on walks towards the end of his field rest to keep him occupied and it was awful. He needed a chiffney to go anywhere and being 700kg and messing around wasn't fun.

 

[leflynn]

What makes you think he needs hard work to settle him, might he not just be being stressy from being on rest? Mine has done the same, he couldn't cope with 3 months of rest and doing nothing, once back in gentle work he was fine (had rearing, bucking, spinning, taking off, rearing in hand with a chifney and two lines and two people, wouldn't walk more than 4 steps before losing it). Would also try a diff calmer or taking him off it as sometimes they can have the opposite effect (esp mag based calmers)

Would chuck him out with pals either side that don't leave him and give him time to chillout and then start again slowly when you're both ready

 

[lelabell]

What makes you think he needs hard work to settle him, might he not just be being stressy from being on rest? Mine has done the same, he couldn't cope with 3 months of rest and doing nothing, once back in gentle work he was fine (had rearing, bucking, spinning, taking off, rearing in hand with a chifney and two lines and two people, wouldn't walk more than 4 steps before losing it). Would also try a diff calmer or taking him off it as sometimes they can have the opposite effect (esp mag based calmers)

Would chuck him out with pals either side that don't leave him and give him time to chillout and then start again slowly when you're both ready

When he was in normal work he was fine. Happy with a naughty side. I know he doesn't like not doing full work but he cant. He wasn't on a calmer until he started doing all this, and then I put him on one. At the yard there isn't a field that he will stay in on his own. The horse he is in with just now is his bestie (a Clydesdale that he likes to mount) but he comes in every night.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You know the horse, so when it comes down to it you need to decide if you want to try full turnout again or not. It does appear that if he doesn't improve soon, that he could either hurt himself again or you will have to PTS before someone gets hurt. I really hope that he improves both physically and mentally and that it doesn't come to that.

 

[HeresHoping]

How big was the field he was in when turned out 24/7? Was it big enough that any pain-related aggression (I have a deal of experience of this) could be worked out?

Also, have you tried an ArcEquine unit? The calming effect it has on most (not all) horses is radical. And its healing powers are quite something, too.

My 17hh ISH is currently enjoying an HHOer's generous hospitality. He crushed his lumbosacral joint and tore a left hind suspensory. He would be fine one minute, move slightly in a fashion that caused him pain and lash out at the nearest horse (usually his field partner) and chase and chase them until they were exhausted. Our fields were only 1.5 acres for two horses. Where he is now he shares 50 odd acres with 5 others and, as far as I know, although he hoons about a bit, he has never gone for another horse since. He's out 24/7 in all weathers and, as far as I know, had never been in his working life before.

He's also sound and just waiting for me to go and get him. When we move he'll be coming home and hopefully back into work.

So, for all the 'buts', ifs and he can'ts, you'd be very surprised how much they can.

 

[lelabell]

How big was the field he was in when turned out 24/7? Was it big enough that any pain-related aggression (I have a deal of experience of this) could be worked out?

Also, have you tried an ArcEquine unit? The calming effect it has on most (not all) horses is radical. And its healing powers are quite something, too.

My 17hh ISH is currently enjoying an HHOer's generous hospitality. He crushed his lumbosacral joint and tore a left hind suspensory. He would be fine one minute, move slightly in a fashion that caused him pain and lash out at the nearest horse (usually his field partner) and chase and chase them until they were exhausted. Our fields were only 1.5 acres for two horses. Where he is now he shares 50 odd acres with 5 others and, as far as I know, although he hoons about a bit, he has never gone for another horse since. He's out 24/7 in all weathers and, as far as I know, had never been in his working life before.

He's also sound and just waiting for me to go and get him. When we move he'll be coming home and hopefully back into work.

So, for all the 'buts', ifs and he can'ts, you'd be very surprised how much they can.

Never heard of the Arc thing but its quite expensive!
His field was the biggest one the yard had at the time so there was plenty space for him and 2 others.

I think I need to do some serious thinking but ive lost my trust in him unfortunately.

 

[leflynn]

When he was in normal work he was fine. Happy with a naughty side. I know he doesn't like not doing full work but he cant. He wasn't on a calmer until he started doing all this, and then I put him on one. At the yard there isn't a field that he will stay in on his own. The horse he is in with just now is his bestie (a Clydesdale that he likes to mount) but he comes in every night.

I really would try and ditch the calmer or try a different one he sounds a lot like mine, I lost trust in him as he was awful at points, biting kicking and rearing even in his stable (great when he had a fractured radius...). I used valerian and zylkene and sedated him when he was turned out at first as he too pestered a field buddy, after a couple of heart in mouth weeks he went back to more sanity and I re-started him. I tried too quickly the first time - he just needed to remember how to be a horse again.

My vet at the time also suggested dropping any hard feed/reducing hay before turnout after extended periods of rest so they want to eat the grass and not lark about. Mine ignored this and hooned round the field for an hour before bothering to eat. He also fought sedation when he knew he was being turned out too...

I sat and cried in the field one day as I thought I'd have to put to sleep as he was just plain dangerous, thankfully I pulled myself together tried some diff things and got some help from an instructor. Mine still to this day does not like doing nothing, any more than a weeks break from work and I have to drop his feed and lunge him for a couple for days before I get back on as he will throw some lovely shapes (out of work for 15 days last year due to saddle fit issues), now I can hack about on the buckle end and prepare for random spooks!

 

[lelabell]

I really would try and ditch the calmer or try a different one he sounds a lot like mine, I lost trust in him as he was awful at points, biting kicking and rearing even in his stable (great when he had a fractured radius...). I used valerian and zylkene and sedated him when he was turned out at first as he too pestered a field buddy, after a couple of heart in mouth weeks he went back to more sanity and I re-started him. I tried too quickly the first time - he just needed to remember how to be a horse again.

My vet at the time also suggested dropping any hard feed/reducing hay before turnout after extended periods of rest so they want to eat the grass and not lark about. Mine ignored this and hooned round the field for an hour before bothering to eat. He also fought sedation when he knew he was being turned out too...

I sat and cried in the field one day as I thought I'd have to put to sleep as he was just plain dangerous, thankfully I pulled myself together tried some diff things and got some help from an instructor. Mine still to this day does not like doing nothing, any more than a weeks break from work and I have to drop his feed and lunge him for a couple for days before I get back on as he will throw some lovely shapes (out of work for 15 days last year due to saddle fit issues), now I can hack about on the buckle end and prepare for random spooks!

This is good to hear and sounds like my horse. He is just on calmag but needs feed for his joint supplement. I cant lunge him as this puts pressure on his knee (and I don't fancy another broken wrist).
I have been really brave getting back on but my fear is stopping me wanting to try again.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Well he is out 9-4 or there abouts and is happy with the horse he is with.
He will never do one day events but may still be able to do Lower level RC if his knee holds up. He has such a high pain threshold. He would soldier on if you let him but that's not fair.
He is on half doses of top spec feed with joint supplement and calmer.

I haven't read all the posts, so someone else may have already said this.

I would take him off ALL feed except hay/grass that hasn't been prescribed by the vet. So no supplements or calmers, and definitely no TopSpec. It could be that an ingredient on one of these is causing his behaviour to get worse and worse.
Then I would look for somewhere where he could be turned out on a huge acreage with companions and turn him away for months at least, so that he can heal and chill.

And I'm afraid that if those 2 strategies didn't work I would pts.

 

[leflynn]

This is good to hear and sounds like my horse. He is just on calmag but needs feed for his joint supplement. I cant lunge him as this puts pressure on his knee (and I don't fancy another broken wrist).
I have been really brave getting back on but my fear is stopping me wanting to try again.

I ditched the mag calmers and went for valerian and zylkene as I realised they sent him more mad and stressy. Same issue but I tried ditching feed for 24 hours before turnout thinking 24 hours off his supplements wouldn't hurt. I also got my instructor to start the lunging and long lining till I could get my confidence to do it. I abandoned walking in hand as he was rearing every 4 steps on a good day and I couldn't take it any longer after 7 days plus I figured if he was doing that he was feeling well enough for long lining!!! I hope you can find some ways round this I also packed him off to another yard for amonths rehab before I actually turned him out so his was a bit fitter, he spent a month or so on a horse walker twice a day until he was up to just over an hour a day as I knew he would go mental in the field (vet suggestion). Is it worth talking to your vet about this again?

He had been on and off box rest for almost 18 months with a suspensory/tendon/two fractures (not all at the same time), most he had been in work or almost in work was 6 weeks in that time so I knew he wasn't doing well mentally, it took him a little while to become vile, the first 4 weeks were fine, then the biting and going do lally started so everything got cut out. I had to feed him to muck him out twice a day or he would bite me and trot round his stable like an idiot, he even kept rearing and breaking light fittings out of sheer boredom (I have sworn never to do it again to him)

 

[lelabell]

I haven't read all the posts, so someone else may have already said this.

I would take him off ALL feed except hay/grass that hasn't been prescribed by the vet. So no supplements or calmers, and definitely no TopSpec. It could be that an ingredient on one of these is causing his behaviour to get worse and worse.
Then I would look for somewhere where he could be turned out on a huge acreage with companions and turn him away for months at least, so that he can heal and chill.

And I'm afraid that if those 2 strategies didn't work I would pts.

My issue with finding a huge field for him and others is that I would lose my space at my current yard, and cant afford to be paying for 2 places. I fear him jumping out of fields, schools and all his leaping around may have damaged his knee more.

But when he was on feed at the start of his lameness he was fine. Just normal cheeky self. Surely if it was the feed it would have shown up before now and he would be awful to handle on the ground as well?