What would you do now?

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poiuytrewq

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Just wondering what others may do/try as I am a little lost as to where I am going with all this!

Horse, is the same horse as I've posted about over the years, Lovely lovely boy but is a head shaker, can be a total pita and used to try and kill me every year from about October to spring, when inevitably the head shaking would start again shorty after the behaviour settled.
So I eventually retired him. I never really made a firm decision forever but have another riding horse now and no real desire to ride 2. I said I'd always keep a retiree if they are field sound, happy, not costing a fortune etc and I stand by that. He is now my only retiree and has been a good-ish companion to my mare. I think i can rule the ponies out of the companion equasion really as although they are all fine together sometimes grass etc doesn't allow them all to be turned out together.

So, we have had these horrible issues with abcess's in his hind feet. In hindsight I'd say on and off since September- although I didn't know it was abcess at the time as It came and went. no reaction to hoof testers no pulses or heat etc.
FF we have had abcess after abcess now since the beginning of January I think.
He's currently in and in all honesty seems pretty happy being in. I always struggle with the concept but hand on heart I can't say he's miserable.
We have done x-rays, nerve blocks, poulticing, box rest, yard rest, tiny field rest when it was pre mud! bloods, antiobiotics (as he had a huge systemic infection also) Two lots of vets and two lots of farriers.

Currently he is still in, I leave his door open when I can but he tends to get up to trouble and we have had several breakages and he is a big one for pawing madly especially in puddles and that's not helping his front feet - or my yard so I'm being a bit careful about that.

Latest was a new farrier gave him a really good going over, couldnt find any signs of puss, no heat, no pulses, sound in walk, not resting one in particular or switching constantly, but, unhappy to hold either up for longer than a few seconds.
I physically can't poultice, I'm having trouble getting them clean now, So I muck out twice a day and skip out between. Ive put him on a smaller bed as its easier to manage.
Farrier said soak daily as there are tracks and holes and exit's and keep stabled. Turns out I couldnt even soak them without him getting very panicked and me almost getting my head kicked in.

S/W vet and we came up with two plans, maybe 3
1- Turn out whilst being aware that it could all go tits and go wrong, but he's been in a long time and we don't seem to get getting any further at this point- He's a retired and should be chilling in the field not shut in. (However its winter and lots of horses are in the same situ) This plan is a little shit or bust i suppose.

2- xray again and check for any rotation or possible infection in the bone perhaps and go from there. This retired horse I'll keep as long as he doesnt cost much has already cost me £2k just by having abcess's I just dont have the money to keep spending really and first xrays (umm, November?) were fine although we only did one side as he was only lame on one leg at that time. Already know abcess's often don't show as the first erupted not long after the first x-rays showed absolutely nothing.

3- bury my head in the sand and just keep chipping away as we are. I did ask my vet if that was a plan and she said fine for short term but obviously not long term as he can't live like this forever.

Then friend suggested I sedate and soak for a week or so and see where that gets us. I did that yesterday and it worked, checked with vet that daily sedation was ok she has said yes again short term but she can't see that soaking i going to help much.

So I'm a bit lost really as to what to do. This isn't how I want him to live, but as above he seems chilled as long as he has a big hay net and visible company. I assume that x-rays showing infection in the bone mean pts and if he has rotations?

He *could just have had enough with having his feet messed with of course but It feels to me like a genuine panic need to get the weight off the other leg than being arsey about the one I'm trying to treat. He also starts to lift the one I'm heading for so he's still trying to be polite!
I'm NOT doing MRI's or bone scans. I also don't want to do more lameness investigations before that's all suggested. Can't afford it and tbh things like that have always cost me £££ and never given an answer or fixed an issue.
 
Sorry if that's a bit rambly and jumping round!
He's also been diagnosed with cushings and is being medicated- been on it maybe 3 weeks give or take
Farrier said he's confident its not laminitis, absolutely no signs of.
 
I nearly had my old boy put down in the first lockdown with what turned out to be an abscess that blew half his hoof wall off. Vets were struggling with routine work & he wasn't great with vets, sedation, x-rays etc so I couldn't just hand him over to them (& vets were only really doing emergencies)

In the end I decided to go with pain relief, turn out, cry a lot and pray.

When the hoof suddenly threw a huge crack it looked horrible but he looked better. The amount that then broke off was scary and I could see dead laminae underneath but the horse was happy again. Never did get pus.

So I've done the turn out and pray and I'd do it again - but this was a horse which didn't stable well.
 
Maybe give it longer for the cushings meds to kick in, I think my vet said by 6 weeks I should notice a difference and mine was back to her old self about 6 weeks on prascend . Her main symptom was being depressed and grumpy and she went back to being her usual sweet self….
If no difference I would seriously consider PTS if his life is going to be in a stable continually. I’d be tempted to turn him out and make a decision if that doesn’t work… it’s really hard when you have tried so hard and spent so much, but quality of life for both of you is important
 
Pragmatic reply from me so feel free to ignore.
You've spent a lot on him and sounds like you're nearing/at your limit, no shame in that we all have one.
You're also questioning his happiness, which 100% makes sense.
Weather is 100% not helping but also not going to change soon.
So decide on a treatment plan, put a timeline on it and if not right at the end, then I'd PTS.
I'll be honest we had a couple of terrible winters with abscesses for one of my old guys and as soon as it started the 3rd time I PTS. In hindsight I should have done it when it started for the 2nd winter.
 
So do we think maybe a few more weeks of almost ignoring, letting the prescand kick in a bit more- I mean Ideally the ground drying but I don't think thats going to happen any time soon.
This one is blowing my mind at how cool he is about being stabled. When they first suggested box rest I said just no way, hence the small paddock but that was when the ground was significantly better.

I'm not at this point questioning his happiness and I think if i thought he was miserable I may have actually considered pts. I would question it and my ability to keep him and the others happy IF this go's on a lot longer.
I am not adverse to pts. He has this head shaking thing going on also so I don't feel it would be a dreadful decision. I just don't think we are *quite* there yet.
 
I'd leave him as he is and let the cushings meds to their thing. It's probably going to take longer than 3 weeks. What would be the point of soaking his feet? You don't currently have any evidence of an abscess, so I think you could be just making more trouble by softening his hooves further. If he were mine, I'd use something like Red Horse to fill any small holes and let him get on with it. It's obviously not ideal weather wise and if he's ok as he is, you could just leave him be for now.

Mine had an antibiotic liquid when she had a suspected pedal bone infection because of an abscess (x-rays weren't clear and she was still lame). The vet said it often worked when others didn't. I can't remember the name but it was used for chickens I think?
 
Ah yes, we do have definite abcess's (plural!) they have blown out of his heels both hinds, both side in one and the vet did find pus once when digging. They were poulticed at the times though and nothing more ever came out on them.

Meleeka- Sheep by any chance? Farrier mentiond a soak called Golden Hoof which is for sheep.
 
I've not bought it yet as its £50ish a bag and I figure if I can't get his feet in normal salt water easily I don't want to waste another £50 to get kicked round the yard!
 
meleeka said:
I'd leave him as he is and let the cushings meds to their thing. It's probably going to take longer than 3 weeks. What would be the point of soaking his feet? You don't currently have any evidence of an abscess, so I think you could be just making more trouble by softening his hooves further. If he were mine, I'd use something like Red Horse to fill any small holes and let him get on with it. It's obviously not ideal weather wise and if he's ok as he is, you could just leave him be for now.

Mine had an antibiotic liquid when she had a suspected pedal bone infection because of an abscess (x-rays weren't clear and she was still lame). The vet said it often worked when others didn't. I can't remember the name but it was used for chickens I think?
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Sorry, I mis read. No we dont currently have any signs, other than that he won't weight bear on either hind. Apologies!
 
poiuytrewq said:
Ah yes, we do have definite abcess's (plural!) they have blown out of his heels both hinds, both side in one and the vet did find pus once when digging. They were poulticed at the times though and nothing more ever came out on them.

Meleeka- Sheep by any chance? Farrier mentiond a soak called Golden Hoof which is for sheep.
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I found it, it was called Karidox. She said it was good for odd things that normal antibiotics didn't work on.

Essentially, you could just be dealing with with a compromised foot, with more tracks and holes than is comfortable. Only time will be able to tell if that's the case.
 
Not quite the same situation but we have our dearly loved coblet, nearly 18 and been retired now for approx. a year now following unsuccessful surgery on both hind limb annular ligaments. I say unsuccessful as despite surgery, box rest, rehab followed to the letter, he just did not come sound under saddle at anything other than a gentle walk and tbh he was very opiniated and it wasn't fun so the decision was made!
He's field sound on 1 danilon/day (has to have 2 for the farrier) and lives up at my friends house so not extortionate livery costs but paying for his hay, feed, insurance, farrier, physio etc and monthly danilon leaves no change from £200/month. This winter has been so hard also as he has had to live solo, due to being antisocial and food aggressive in small spaces so with the weather being so bad he's lived for the past 8 weeks in a yard turnout area with turn out in a muddy field for the days when it has been a little drier (not very often). I've already decided that he can have the summer out on 8 acres with the others from approx April-October but then I'm not putting him through another winter of mud, limited turnout and solitary confinement. Quality over quantity of life I'm afraid although it will break my heart.
 
Well as you have a recent Cushings diagnosis then you have a potentially concrete (and controllable) reason for the abcess.

So personally I’d set a timescale in place in consultation with vet for getting the Cushings under control. The theory (hollow laugh) being the abcessing should start to resolve from my experience anyway.

In the interim clear up any current abcess, using sedation if needed to get them on. If really lame/oozing I might just check you haven’t got a foreign body/infected pedal bone/significant rotation (as that may change the decision/plan).

But for me, deffo no expensive diagnostic, and a timescale to get the Cushings drugs working.
 
Is he anywhere near sound enough to turn out, movement will help loads , I did once, sprayed the foot with Stockholm tar and turned her out. And didn't look too closely for a couple of weeks
With the cushings diagnosis being a potential reason for the accesses, it will give time for the meds to kick in, and make your life easier
 
poiuytrewq said:
So do we think maybe a few more weeks of almost ignoring, letting the prescand kick in a bit more- I mean Ideally the ground drying but I don't think thats going to happen any time soon.
This one is blowing my mind at how cool he is about being stabled. When they first suggested box rest I said just no way, hence the small paddock but that was when the ground was significantly better.

I'm not at this point questioning his happiness and I think if i thought he was miserable I may have actually considered pts. I would question it and my ability to keep him and the others happy IF this go's on a lot longer.
I am not adverse to pts. He has this head shaking thing going on also so I don't feel it would be a dreadful decision. I just don't think we are *quite* there yet.
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Just hinds are the issue?
With pain relief, can you get them up long enough to pull on a hoof boot pre- lined with Animalintex, fasten those on for him to ‘turn out’ in your yard, with option to return into his stable for his hay net? Sounds like he now prefers cushioned surfaces. Shouldn’t worry about pawing puddles if it’s only the hinds compromised, but maybe another 3 weeks maximum to see if the pergolide has a significant effect. If you can’t get hoof protection on, still be inclined to let him out in a paved yard, but not deep mud.
I personally wouldn’t spend on further x rays - your farrier is confident no laminitis, vet hasn’t been treating for this, and you are not prepared to go down the route of extended treatment / surgical shoes etc if so. Even if he suddenly foundered in crisis - you’d be calling time, and rightly so in my view.
Unremitting stress is also bad for owners / carers and their families, even with unlimited funds, and it is not as though this horse could ever expect a ‘bright future’ - the very best would be limited grass, limited company, probably other health issues associated with Cushings, plus the head shaking.
Good luck.
 
meleeka said:
I found it, it was called Karidox. She said it was good for odd things that normal antibiotics didn't work on.
Essentially, you could just be dealing with with a compromised foot, with more tracks and holes than is comfortable. Only time will be able to tell if that's the case.
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He’s already had a course of Karadox, very weird stuff!
 
In reply to others, thank you all for taking the time!

He is sound looking in walk. I’ve not trotted him up for a while.

Yes it is hopefully all due to the cushings, his results were very borderline and I’d have thought that to cause abscess’s like this I’d have expected a higher result but yes, I’m really hoping we can write it all down to the cushings. 🤞

Vet and farrier both seem to agree no more poulticing for now, I think due to the fact there’s no heat/pulses.
Some days I may be able to get a boot on if I was quick, some days not.
The pawing, maybe pawing is the wrong word.😬 he is particularly violent with it, it’s not just a little scrape it’s going to damage his toes and has already chipped up the yard! We used to find it hilarious, I’d ride him into a river or flooded bit of road and god help anyone close! They’d get soaked, his knees are up round his ears 🤣🙄 it’s the trotter in him perhaps 🤦‍♀️

So at the moment, with other people helpful views I’m leaning towards not x-raying any further (she says!) keeping on like this for another 2, potentially 3 weeks and then turning out and as SEL looking the other way and hoping for the best.
I did manage to soak again today but I’m not sure if it’s the best thing and my vet says she can’t see much point in it.
I may just do the minimum, pick out regularly brush out when I can, keep keeping everything as clean as possible and just see where that gets us.
He can walk round the yard as much as possible, until he starts trying to pull the yard to bits!
 
I'd sedate, clean trax all his feet, make sure hes got a decent balanced trim, and then I'd throw him out and see what happened. give him a mineral balancer with decent copper and zinc, salt etc and make sure he has enough protein. I think theres a good chance he will come right, and if he doesnt then you have your answer. I wouldnt be stabling and endlessly soaking his feet when its causing such upset anymore though and I wouldnt be running up anymore bills.
 
I'm Dun said:
I'd sedate, clean trax all his feet, make sure hes got a decent balanced trim, and then I'd throw him out and see what happened. give him a mineral balancer with decent copper and zinc, salt etc and make sure he has enough protein. I think theres a good chance he will come right, and if he doesnt then you have your answer. I wouldnt be stabling and endlessly soaking his feet when its causing such upset anymore though and I wouldnt be running up anymore bills.
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I don’t think you can buy it any more. There’s a similar product clean it or something but I can’t find that in the Uk either 🤷‍♀️
I’ve wondered about just buying the main ingredient (which I can’t recall off the top of my head but is purchasable for other reasons in the uk) clean trax, as far as I can see had two ingredients that and a surfactant.

He is happy in the stable I think it’s more me that it doesn’t sit right with for much longer
 
My old boy has never had an abscess in his life.

Diagnosed PPID this autumn when he suddenly looked miserable as sin. The pergolide took while to kick in, but when it did it made a fantastic difference to him (I'd been on the verge of PTS because his QOL seemed so poor)

All good, except that he now blown huge abscesses one after the other in 3 out of 4 hooves, each of which has made him really miserable. I have increased his Pergolide on vet advice, but PTS is now in the back of my mind again. My current thinking is keep him going until spring/dry weather, and see how he is. I can't bear to see him repeatedly in pain. Bute helps, but it's the whole palather of treating them which p**** him off too.

With your lad, I'd let him stay in if he's happy, and re-assess when , if, it finally dries up enough to turn out.
 
I would suspect his insulin/blood sugar levels are out of whack, possibly Cushings related. In humans, this will cause lower limb complications - circulatory damage to toes, feet and lower leg. In horses we see foot pain, laminitis, abscesses. In humans, sugar intake has to be balanced with insulin, but in horses a level of sugar is needed for fermentation in the hindgut. It's a delicate juggling act. Hopefully, the Cushings treatment will kick in, and things will settle down. My understanding is that is takes around six weeks to get into the system. If the abscesses are open and draining, then it will probably do no harm to turn him out. Think you may have found your answer to winter headshaking too. Cushings symptoms usually flare up from September, and level out in spring.
 
Oh ok, Can head shaking and cushings be related? He's more summer but has started the lots of snorting some days already. God, that would be amazing if the medication helps that as well.
Although I think he has been a head shaker since before I bought him (having spoken to previous owners who had him prior to the guy I had him off)
 
My understanding of Cushings is that the pituitary gland becomes enlarged, malfunctions, and can put pressure on other parts of the brain. I've honestly no idea whether headshaking would result, but the season variation you describe appears to fit in with flare ups. Fingers crossed that the medication gives relief.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Oh ok, Can head shaking and cushings be related? He's more summer but has started the lots of snorting some days already. God, that would be amazing if the medication helps that as well.
Although I think he has been a head shaker since before I bought him (having spoken to previous owners who had him prior to the guy I had him off)
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This predates the cushings by years and years so very unlikely sadly.
 
My cushings mare was fine all winter but as soon as the rape came up she started headshaking . I moved to another yard which had no rape fields close by and she stopped completely . It could just be something local to you that aggravates him
 
poiuytrewq said:
Just wondering what others may do/try as I am a little lost as to where I am going with all this!

Horse, is the same horse as I've posted about over the years, Lovely lovely boy but is a head shaker, can be a total pita and used to try and kill me every year from about October to spring, when inevitably the head shaking would start again shorty after the behaviour settled.
So I eventually retired him. I never really made a firm decision forever but have another riding horse now and no real desire to ride 2. I said I'd always keep a retiree if they are field sound, happy, not costing a fortune etc and I stand by that. He is now my only retiree and has been a good-ish companion to my mare. I think i can rule the ponies out of the companion equasion really as although they are all fine together sometimes grass etc doesn't allow them all to be turned out together.

So, we have had these horrible issues with abcess's in his hind feet. In hindsight I'd say on and off since September- although I didn't know it was abcess at the time as It came and went. no reaction to hoof testers no pulses or heat etc.
FF we have had abcess after abcess now since the beginning of January I think.
He's currently in and in all honesty seems pretty happy being in. I always struggle with the concept but hand on heart I can't say he's miserable.
We have done x-rays, nerve blocks, poulticing, box rest, yard rest, tiny field rest when it was pre mud! bloods, antiobiotics (as he had a huge systemic infection also) Two lots of vets and two lots of farriers.

Currently he is still in, I leave his door open when I can but he tends to get up to trouble and we have had several breakages and he is a big one for pawing madly especially in puddles and that's not helping his front feet - or my yard so I'm being a bit careful about that.

Latest was a new farrier gave him a really good going over, couldnt find any signs of puss, no heat, no pulses, sound in walk, not resting one in particular or switching constantly, but, unhappy to hold either up for longer than a few seconds.
I physically can't poultice, I'm having trouble getting them clean now, So I muck out twice a day and skip out between. Ive put him on a smaller bed as its easier to manage.
Farrier said soak daily as there are tracks and holes and exit's and keep stabled. Turns out I couldnt even soak them without him getting very panicked and me almost getting my head kicked in.

S/W vet and we came up with two plans, maybe 3
1- Turn out whilst being aware that it could all go tits and go wrong, but he's been in a long time and we don't seem to get getting any further at this point- He's a retired and should be chilling in the field not shut in. (However its winter and lots of horses are in the same situ) This plan is a little shit or bust i suppose.

2- xray again and check for any rotation or possible infection in the bone perhaps and go from there. This retired horse I'll keep as long as he doesnt cost much has already cost me £2k just by having abcess's I just dont have the money to keep spending really and first xrays (umm, November?) were fine although we only did one side as he was only lame on one leg at that time. Already know abcess's often don't show as the first erupted not long after the first x-rays showed absolutely nothing.

3- bury my head in the sand and just keep chipping away as we are. I did ask my vet if that was a plan and she said fine for short term but obviously not long term as he can't live like this forever.

Then friend suggested I sedate and soak for a week or so and see where that gets us. I did that yesterday and it worked, checked with vet that daily sedation was ok she has said yes again short term but she can't see that soaking i going to help much.

So I'm a bit lost really as to what to do. This isn't how I want him to live, but as above he seems chilled as long as he has a big hay net and visible company. I assume that x-rays showing infection in the bone mean pts and if he has rotations?

He *could just have had enough with having his feet messed with of course but It feels to me like a genuine panic need to get the weight off the other leg than being arsey about the one I'm trying to treat. He also starts to lift the one I'm heading for so he's still trying to be polite!
I'm NOT doing MRI's or bone scans. I also don't want to do more lameness investigations before that's all suggested. Can't afford it and tbh things like that have always cost me £££ and never given an answer or fixed an issue.
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Similar boat to you. He's had an abscess in all for feet at least once over the winter so far. Farrier has found and dug, I've found and drained, flushed out etc for them to refill. Have nowhere to keep him in, tried keeping him in the field shelter to poultice and he ran through the shelter covering (poly tunnel type) and bent the steel frame... Trying to keep on top of the mud as much as possible but not winning and it's not helping him. Has navicular changes, was field sound and happy now looks lame from walking through the mud (understandable). Cannot get Cushing's meds of pain relief into him without a fight, starting to kick out every time I go near a foot with an abscess sign, pulls evil faces at his fields mates all the time and nods his head exaggeratedly at them each time they walk past him... Like you I don't want to spend a fortune on him, he was bought as a companion and has had 3 years with us, but I feel awful considering if putting him down is the right thing, as most people say he's not bad enough for that, but I don't think he's as happy as he was. I know I'm not!
 
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