What would you do with this horse?

[Countrychic]

I'm at a bit of a loss, we have a very good looking, well bred 6yr old mare. We bought her cheap as she was quirky, very unsettled in the mouth which meant she jumped inverted and rushed. She was also not very well schooled and had a bit of a nap in her.

Got her home had teeth, saddle and back done changed the bit and took her out to a couple of 1m classes where she jumped well. She had the odd stop but very genuine kind stops and in general jumped very well.

She had very poor flexion to the right and her canter was quite unbalanced and heady so we got everything checked again and the saddle was reflocked mainly on the right to stop it slipping. After I did feel her right shoulder had more movement but she became quite nappy. We took her out and she went to take off over a tiny cross then slammed back down resulting in us parting company got her going, thought maybe I'd been a bit backward coming in to the fence. She jumped a few more fine took her in to the ring (a ring she's been in before) and she totally switched off, spooking, napping, dashing forwards and spinning eventually resulting in me having a really bad fall.

Got everything checked again, physio said nothing wrong in the back so got another saddler who said that although the saddle wasn't perfect it wasn't horrific. Got her a new saddle anyway. Brought her back in to work spending time reschooling her rather than jumping then got my trainer to jump her. She threw her off in exactly the same way but trainer said she didn't think she was a nasty horse just one that had been rushed (she was placed in 4yr olds) and was panicky as a result. Her stop is very dirty. She had jumped the cross happily on one rein then stopped when asked to jump on the other rein.

She thought it was really important to work more on the canter however she is now kicking out every time I put leg on which is making it impossible to work her properly on the flat.

She is very sweet in the box but there is something odd about her. I never feel at ease with her. If she was yours what would you do?

 

[galaxy]

have her scoped for ulcers.

 

[charlimouse]

I would have a full loss of performance work up done by a vet.

 

[Countrychic]

I had considered ulcers but she is a good weight and has a huge appetite. Do you still think it would be worth checking?
I'm reluctant to go down the lameness work up right now as she has been checked so many times by very good professionals that have spotted things for me before and they think she is physically sound and well

 

[measles]

She may be being naughty but the only time I have had a similar experience with a horse beginning to kick my leg off after being stressy to ride showed that a lameness work up is a necessity. She was a 5yo, about 15 years ago, and the work up showed damage to both hind suspensories and the beginnings of arthritis in one hock. Imagine if I had continued to work her and demanded that she cooperate.

Let us know how you get on, and best of luck.

ETA My own vet trotted her up and flexed her and pronounced her sound. It was the scans and nerve blocks at the vet hospital that diagnosed the problem and the professionals who have seen her can only see the outside and not within.

 

[charlimouse]

I'm reluctant to go down the lameness work up right now as she has been checked so many times by very good professionals that have spotted things for me before and they think she is physically sound and well

A loss of performance work up isn't just a lameness work up. Yes they will start off with flexions, lunging on a hard surface as it is an inexpensive way of making sure the horse is sound. Before going down the route of scoping, various blood tests etc.

 

[TarrSteps]

Right, I generally do not comment on horses I've not seen, but. . .I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts she hurts. Just because you can't find something doesn't mean it's not there and she's positively classic, with the canter issue and the difference between directions and the slipping saddle. . .textbook.

As to what you do about it.. .that depends what you're willing to invest and what other aspects of the situation need to be considered. You can run the gamut from complete work up with someone like Sue Dyson to in the field for a year.

You could get another opinion, perhaps from someone who specialises in difficult horses but you sound pretty experienced and she sounds like she's telling you she's struggling.

Sorry, I know you want a definitive answer but my experience would suggest it's usually not that simple. Sometimes even very broken horses can be rehabilitated but it's hardly ever a simple process.

 

[Irish Flo]

I know everyones got their own opinion on these kind of situations (so no jip please) from my own personal experience of having a perfectly healthy good looking horse but was a beast when she took the notion.. I would sell her. Its not worth it in the long run, it just gives you a whole lota heart ache. I got my mare as a 3yr old, apparently she was broken in.. id say a badly rushed job, she was ook at the start, very nervous, but once she got a few months of riding done she seemed to settle alot, but I could feel her getting very very head strong so I done as much flat work on her as I could stomach. This only made her fitter and as a result she actually nearly killed me a few times. she would just be trotting around happliy on the bridle, foaming nicley, extending collecting, the whole works but I could always feel her watching me and then bang out of nowhere she would just fly up in the air. Iam not bosting at all but I would consider myself a very competent rider. like most folks on here, riding all my life and worked as a riding instructor for a good while, so I knew what I was doing and had plenty of experience of breaking in or riding tricky horses. When I owned this mare I worked in a showjumping yard with a very experienced and well known Irish rider so she was in a best place. I got the works done on her, back, teeth, feet, hormone levels, blood tests, eyes, ears, changed my saddle, tryed every bit known to man and a bitless bridle.. nothing worked. I even gave her a head massage once before I rode her thinking it would relax her...waste of time, that day she feel back on top of me. In the end my own safety was more important than owning this horse that yes she was goregous looking and could jump a house but you couldnt go out and enjoy riding her, she was a ticking bomb.
I would say seriously consider your safety first, is this horse worth it?
If so I get your vet to do some more internal investagations, she could need a hormone balancing drug.. I think you can actually get this in a powder that you mix with their feed
Good luck whatever you decide!

 

[cellie]

Another consideration is ovaries.My old mare was quirky but wasvery unhappy once she marble after trialon regumate she improved.

 

[Countrychic]

Thank you for all replies so far. I need to have a think about how much we can afford to invest in vets etc because it sounds like it could be anywhere and is probably not going to be cheap to find. Then if worst came to worst and it was like Irish flos horse I would be in a pickle!!
Just a random addition, I find her odd with other horses. She seems to be really friendly and grooms them or sniffs them then within a split second she changes and double barrels them. No warning, I've not really seen anything like it. She isn't really mareish though, I don't see any change with her seasons

 

[Hels_Bells]

How long is it since you bought her? Is it several months or more measurable in weeks?

6 is still quite young in some horses who mature much slower than others and are more like 3 or 4 at 6 when others are more like 9 at 6. Have you any idea when/how and by whom she was broken in or how many pairs of hands she's been through? It could indeed be that she's not genuine but in my experience if they're sweet to handle on the ground but not in the saddle something is not right either in her confidence or her comfort. Some horses are just such sensitive souls and a good long period of time to settle down and become very confident in their home makes all the difference. I would agree with the loss of use work up would be a good idea but if they don't find anything I would personally be tempted to turn her away for a fair period of time then start her off as if just broken. It sounds like she may be struggling with her balance and needs some really serious and very frequent schooling probably with a pro dressage rider.

Interesting case do keep us posted on progress!

 

[foxy1]

If she were mine I would take off her shoes and turn her away for a year

 

[Countrychic]

She's been here months so it isn't settling in. I think she was broken in Ireland, sent to a young show jumper to produce then sent to another show jumper who did very little with her.

I'm wondering if I should try a bute trial? Has anyone had results doing this?

 

[jessikaGinger]

i find this very interesting as im in the exact same pickle even down to the interaction with other horses, mine too looks a picture of health and eats none stop...

horses eh, who'd av em

 

[Hels_Bells]

As usual there are 2 starting routes here. 1) she is in pain which could be solvable or not solvable OR 2) she is screwed up in the head/scared/underconfident/being tricky which could be solvable or not solvable. For 1) you either try to find out the source and remove the problem or if it's serious/not fixable it's game over. For 2) you either give her time and patience and retraining or try and break it out of her or write her off.

With horses you can never be sure but I would say that the most easy option to confirm or disprove is the pain/physical problem route.

I guess you could do a bute trial, but I personally would be tempted to go down the work up route first even though it would probably be more expensive as if bute trial didn't show anything up (and I think they're pretty hazy at times?) then you will probably end up doing work up anyway. At least with the work-up you would have a quick answer and could move on to next stage/another plan fairly quickly.

Also what has a bearing on the solution is what would be your ideal long term plan for her? Are/were you hoping to bring her on to sell or was it that you are hoping for a long-term partnership? I love a project and have unravelled a few freebie mess ups with success but the one thing I have been able to give is no timeframe and a h*ll of a lot of patience and dedication. If you don't have the bond with the horse for this you might want to look for a new owner for her.

 

[Countrychic]

i find this very interesting as im in the exact same pickle even down to the interaction with other horses, mine too looks a picture of health and eats none stop...

horses eh, who'd av em

That's really strange. What are your plans?

She was bought for me to keep. I already have a project that's for me to keep but she is way more talented than this mare and less quirky. I also have to be careful because of the fall I had from her resulted in my arm being damaged.

 

[kerilli]

I think the way she behaves with other horses is the most telling of all. She's fine, normal, then turns into the über-bitch... due, I bet, to a sudden pain.
I would be VERY very careful what you turn her out with. Bluntly, nothing you mind finding with a broken leg and having to have pts...
If she were mine I'd turn her out alone only, and scope for ulcers first.
And *braces self for onslaught* I'd get an animal communicator to talk to her. Sometimes you're desperate enough (I have been) and you can find out extraordinary things that really help. I don't care what anyone thinks, some are not charlatans.

 

[Irish Flo]

Just a random addition, I find her odd with other horses. She seems to be really friendly and grooms them or sniffs them then within a split second she changes and double barrels them. No warning, I've not really seen anything like it. She isn't really mareish though, I don't see any change with her seasons

OMG I think you bought my mares evil twin haha she used to do the exact same thing.. was scarey at times. She picked one horse for a month that she would be nice to and then would try and put the poor thing in an early grave!

I understand that alot of people would see this type of animal as a good challenge and yes some people can be lucky and figure out their horses ticks, but if you have this horse for "pleasure" activites and dont actually compete for a living I would personally sell and invest my money straight back into a nice 4/5yr old yr thats still at an age where you can put your own stamp on them but theyv dont enough ground work that their settled and ready to give me loads of fun and most important something that Iam safe on..

again these are all my own opinions of what I would do if back in a situation with a horse that naps and even worse a mare that naps!

Good luck and stay safe whatever you decide

 

[Irish Flo]

She's been here months so it isn't settling in. I think she was broken in Ireland, sent to a young show jumper to produce then sent to another show jumper who did very little with her.

Just out of pure curiousity do you know whos yard she was in.. I might know them, and could give you a good idea of their style of riding..

.. there seems to be alot of cases here in Ireland that if a horse shows as a 2/3yr old that they can jump they are rushed.. maybe ones aiming for the 4yr old class at the Dublin Horse Show (biggest show in ireland) they just throw these poor babies in at the deep end as 3yr olds getting them to jump in 1m/1.10m spooky tracks from the word go, and in alot of cases it can sour a horse at a very young age. this could be the case with your mare, maybe her rider was rough. A year off could be a possible solution, would she be ok even out with a donkey?... see you have to remember that horses are herd animals and she might become distressed or even depressed on her own..
would you be in a position to facilite a year of for her? I know here anyway it can be brutal to get grazing land, especially someone that doesnt mind the horse grazing over the winter..

 

[little_critter]

I have a similar quandary. My mare is sweet natured and good to handle but plants in the school and when hacking alone. Vet couldn't find anything, tried new saddle to no avail. Back lady found a sore area and referred me back to my vet. Vet has referred us to Newbury for a bone scan. We don't really know what we're looking for but hopefully it will answer some questions (she's been doing this since jan and I've been trying to improve her through riding and not got anywhere). Interestingly she did improve when she was on steroids for an unrelated condition.

 

[Tiffany]

have her scoped for ulcers.

I was thinking the same

 

[TarrSteps]

I have a similar quandary. My mare is sweet natured and good to handle but plants in the school and when hacking alone. Vet couldn't find anything, tried new saddle to no avail. Back lady found a sore area and referred me back to my vet. Vet has referred us to Newbury for a bone scan. We don't really know what we're looking for but hopefully it will answer some questions (she's been doing this since jan and I've been trying to improve her through riding and not got anywhere). Interestingly she did improve when she was on steroids for an unrelated condition.

Since the whole point of steroids is to short circuit the inflammatory response, that's a pretty clear indication the horse is in some form of discomfort, although it would also work for something like an allergic response which bute or similar might not.

Re bute trials, it is true they aren't definitive by any means, but I think they're a good starting point, especially when everyone has decided it can't be a case of discomfort. ANY improvement is worth noting. For instance one horse I know didn't all of sudden got substantiallly better but did become markedly less spooky. Another got less grumpy. Both those horses had long term bilateral lameness that only became evident with blocks. Both had been examined previously, in one case at least twice by the same vet who had vetted her for sale and then seen her twice more as her behaviour deteriorated. She blocked out hopping lame in front even though she was still being ridden regularly and had substantially improved in her way of going in a new training program.

I will say, for one of the most spectacular cases I've had, bute didn't touch it. Horse was tense and occasionally explosive but jumping 4' and vetted out sound, including a neurological exam. He turned out to have an unstable and arthritic neck fracture! The vet blocked out the neck with lidocaine while the horse was still under sedation post x-ray and both he and I were horrified in the change in the horse. He took a big sigh and his whole posture changed completely - he must have been in agony before.

Another I had that had won a 4 year old class and held all the hopes had definitely suffered mentally from the experience but, it eventually came out, he'd also been electrocuted! So badly he fell to the ground and convulsed. The previous rider had just neglected to pass the info along because it had been caused by his own stupidity. (He tried to lead the horse through a shopping area and it put a stud through one of the grey cables.) I swear there was something wrong with his brain or his vision as he used to peer at things in the most peculiar way. He also used to flip over when he got in a pickle, although that was at least partly a man made response. He did eventually come right-ish, jumping 1.20s, although he should have been a GP horse easily.

Anyway, my point is I really wish it was that simple, to say a horse is doing x so y must be wrong but that just hasn't been my experience. I've seen some that lit up like Christmas trees in an MRI but still happily doing their jobs, others that passed every test but were clearly compromised. You can't even judge from the reaction to work - all the horses I mentioned responded positively to changes in their management and training.

The cheapest and easiest option (relatively speaking), other than passing the horse on, is to turn it away. Might help, might not. You could also try getting someone else on the horse, someone who rides rough stock regularly, and see if they can get a tune out of her, although again, not definitive. I'd probably start with a proper bute trial (not jusg a few days on a single dose, which will barely touch the sides of something serious) and if there is any improvement at least you can assure yourself she is in pain. If there is no change at all it might very well be mental (or not - see above!) although I'm not sure that's an easier answer!

 

[Goldenstar]

I had considered ulcers but she is a good weight and has a huge appetite. Do you still think it would be worth checking?
I'm reluctant to go down the lameness work up right now as she has been checked so many times by very good professionals that have spotted things for me before and they think she is physically sound and well

Yes definatly check for ulcers looking well and eating well does not mean they don't have them.
I would have a loss of performance work up from a vet in your circunmtances .
The fact she was better on steriods does suggest an inflammatory issue .
The other option is turnout for a six months and start again.

 

[TarrSteps]

The only issue with scoping is a) the number of horses that we now think have them and b) the fact that if she's under chronic stress from pain or otherwise, that might contribute (not cause, contribute) to her having them in the first place. I'm not saying don't check - it's relatively cheap and easy - just that, if you do find them, don't necessarily assume that's the whole story.

 

[Kelpie]

not to go all bleeding heart on you, but have you tried much by way of positive reinforcement with her? .... if the issue is behavioural rather than physical, and basically she's sour from having done too much too young, I have found on a couple of projects I've done that adding in more positive reinforcement into your training regime can really help sweeten them up again.

On the animal communicator, I might start a separate thread for recommendations actually, as I could do with one on another matter......

 

[cellie]

re my earlier post my mare was foul with me and other horses until she was trialed on regumate cost is very low and marble was only 80 definitely worth a try before you go down ulcer route. I know what im like with pmt and it really helped solve multitude of probs,

 

[jessikaGinger]

So far she's had 2 weeks box rest and bute. Bloods taken and come back clear. Flexion tests 100% sound. Physio found some tight areas but nothings too worrying. Saddle and teeth checked. And still no better!
I have to take poo samples up Friday to check for ulcers. If they are clear im worried as I only paid £600 for this little mare to hack when I lost my confidence she has regained that but I don't want to sell on my problems or end up spending more than she cost

 

[Goldenstar]

The only issue with scoping is a) the number of horses that we now think have them and b) the fact that if she's under chronic stress from pain or otherwise, that might contribute (not cause, contribute) to her having them in the first place. I'm not saying don't check - it's relatively cheap and easy - just that, if you do find them, don't necessarily assume that's the whole story.

Exactly I am sure often ulcers are the a secondary issue caused by the stress of trying to perform with an undiagnosed physical issue , I have been down this road and leanrt from the experiance.

 

[Countrychic]

It wasn't my horse that did better on steroids.
I think I'll ring the vet today and start her on a bute trial because I don't want to treat ulcers then find out they're secondary. Then I can look at the ulcers then try regumate.
Turning away is possible but she had 10 weeks off when I was hurt and it didn't really change anything. I know 10 weeks isn't that long but just wanted to say she did have a little holiday.
I am really positive with all of mine, lots of verbal praise and pats with the odd mint thrown in too. The tactic with bad behaviour at the moment is to ignore it and repeat the exercise until she listens.
Another option is to sell her cheaply to someone that wants a slow project but I would be worried she'd end up with a dealer and I think if she was handled roughly she'd have a total meltdown

 

[Tempi]

I havent read all the responses, but it sounds like pain - have you done a bute trial? I would do 2 sachets a day for 7 days and monitor her to see if she improves or not. If she does then obviously you know there is pain.

I would then get her ovaries scanned if no improvement on the bute trial and go from there.

These are probably your 'cheaper' options if you are worried about financial costs. Its certainly the route I would go down first if I was in your situation.