What would you do?

[LankyDoodle]

OK so most people know all about what happened with Lanky but lots don't, so forgive me if you have no idea what I'm talking about in the following post. I will try to give you a rough outline of the history but tbh, a rough outline doesn't really cover it and I'm bound to leave stuff out. He is an 8 year old 17.3hh warmblood and last August after lots of tests at a clinic, was diagnosed with severe OCD in his NS stifle and progressive OCD in the OS stifle. Arthritic changes further down the leg. They said it was particularly severe for a horse of his age but had only shown up because a field injury of some kind had damaged the meniscus. In some cases they can repair the meniscus and a horse can return to some level of normality; in Lanky's case it had to be completely removed in his NS stifle and I was given an extremely bleak prognosis... field ornament at best.

12 weeks of box rest, box rest with walking out and gentle short amounts of turnout later, and in November he was turned out again. He went sound for a very short time (to my eye) but then returned to being lame again, just not as lame as pre-op. We had a very harsh winter here and both of my horses had extremely thick coats to normal; I kept him rugged up and fed haylage and his usual hard feed (I say hardfeed but I feed a fibre based diet so he got chaff and plenty of sugarbeet). Last winter he was in harsher conditions out on Exmoor and sharing the same size field he has now with 8 other horses; he now has the same size field (2 acres) shared with just my cob George and we are off the moors so not quite so harsh.

The 2nd week of March our vet came out to do a reassessment of him and concluded that as our worst fears dictated, he was just going to be a pretty field ornament and was still lame despite everyone's best efforts. He is better some days and worse others, but overall is lame whichever way you look at it. Vet assessed the whole picture - weight perfect, coat looking good, inquisitive and happy looking horse who has a decent life even if just in the field, so not a case of needing to be put down. He said we could try riding him on bute a couple of times but we were unhappy with that seeing as he is still lame and lame = pain! So we have kept treating him like a king, knowing he will never ever be ridden again unless some miracle happens.

He belonged to friends of ours before we bought him and we have now had him 18 months, so all this started just 1 year after we bought him. I swore I would protect myself by not striking a bond with him, but I'm afraid I'm an animal-lover and I just look at him and it makes me sad. Over the last couple of weeks, for reasons unbeknown to us, he seems to have deteriorated. He's still alert and looks happy in his face, but he's dropped weight (despite still having haylage and speedibeet and the grazing not being half bad and still being kept warm) and his coat is not looking beautiful and shiny like it normally does by this time of year.

He is fed a gen purpose supplement and gets biotin for his feet (which has the side effect of being good for his coat too). He gets Alfa A and Speedibeet and I'm afraid to say that the issue here is NOT his diet. There have never been any issues before now, and we are in Spring now! He is wormed up-to-date and happy in his environment. Teeth fine. The weight has just suddenly dropped and my husband thinks he's gone lamer in the last couple of weeks as well (my husband is not very good at spotting lameness so it was me that originally spotted it last August, but now my husband thinks he's got worse).

I'm thinking it's time to get the vet back out and talk about the options here. I don't know what to do. I want to think there's another reason he is dropping weight so quickly... one that is easily sortable, but I've gone through everything and it all comes back to him being in pain that is making him miserable enough to drop weight? He IS eating everything given to him, though, and he gets ad lib so is not restricted! I won't get agreement to PTS under BEVA guidelines but it's breaking my heart to see him suffer.

Any other ideas what it could be? Please don't people suggest adding cereals to his diet - he's an unexercised horse and although I like Spiller's products for weight maintenance/gain, I prefer to feed just chaff, sugarbeet and haylage/hay; feeding a cereal will probably make him gain weight and fizz up but will just mask over the problem tbh, not solve it.

Thanks.

 

[Divasmum]

What an enormous worry for you. If I were in the same situation I would get the vet to examine him and have a serious discussion about what your options are.

 

[quirky]

Sounds as if he is dropping weight due to being in constant pain .

 

[AmyMay]

I'm thinking it's time to get the vet back out and talk about the options here

I agree. And would be preparing myself for the worst. (((((( ))))))

 

[Kenzo]

I think this is something you can only debate once you have had the vet to investigate why he is loosing weight and if the two are connected in any way then I think you already know what would be the kindest thing to do.

(((hugs)))

 

[LankyDoodle]

Thank you guys. You've reitterated what I already think. I hate seeing any animal in any amount of pain and just so worried about making the wrong decision for him.

(By the way: Quirky, did you get my PM?).

 

[Booboos]

I can't tell you how sorry to hear about Lanky (I tried PMing you but your messages were full). You tried everything there was to get him right, but it just wasn't to be. Having been in exactly the same situation, I really feel for you!

Spring has been a bit late this year and the grass hasn't really come through. Could it just be that he is feeling the effects of a harsh winter? It may be that in a couple of weeks he will look totally different.

 

[Ziggy_]

I agree with the above posters, sounds like his weight loss is down to him living in pain, and know you will make the right decision when the time comes. (((hugs))).

 

[LankyDoodle]

Thanks Booboos - I know you had the same thing happen with Thomas, or similar. I have emptied my PMs; I didn't know they were full! I don't like this new PM format!

Thank you Ziggy. I know you're all right and have just confirmed my thoughts. The poor boy. He has such a kind, trusting face and I just hope I can do right by him.

 

[oofadoofa]

Really really sorry to hear about Lanky. I have to say I think it's probably the time of year as to why he's looking like this. My oldy has dropped back a bit the last few weeks, quite noticably, and I know it's because of the long winter. I have panicked in the past and had blood tests done, etc, but the vet can never find anything wrong with him and as soon as a good amount of grass comes through he looks a million dollars again. Also my one that fractured his pedal bone and was on field rest never looked that good over the summer when he was just mooching around his paddock because of the lack of muscle. I guess you have to decide whether you are going to keep him long term as a field ornament, but I would give him a few more weeks until the grass has come through properly before making any decisions.

 

[CBFan]

I think you know your horse better than any vet and you should trust your judgement on this. I would agree with the others in that his overall current condition is likely to be pain related and as the overall progrosis isn't good for him, tbh if I were in your shoes I would pts.

Big Hugs

 

[jhoward]

is it though a really high degree of pain?? if its not then i personally wouldnt think that it is causing him to lose weight.
It is possible that being out of work just doesnt suit him and this is your cause. IF you really think it is pain related, why not try him on a low does of bute over a couple of weeks to see if the weight side of things pick up, at least this way you wuld know for sure rather than just guessing.

feed wise i hear you about the cerals but how about trying oil, or something like equi jewel (rice bran high oil) one of the issues with big horses is if you try and feed the reccomended daily allowences it a) costs rather a lot and b) the feeds are huge. with some thing along the lines of blue chip/equi jewel its fed by the mug full and works out to be a much better way to feed, and you can still feed you chaffs and sugarbeets.

 

[lochpearl]

I agree with JHoward, As you know I lost my horse to the same problem but he never dropped off weight. He was in a considerable amount of pain and this is why I pts he was in this much pain on 2 danilon per day which is why I knew I needed to do the right thing.

Speak to the vet but I would imagine and hope that it is just the change in weather, dropping off his muscle and being fed up with it being nice, then raining etc like we are.

Only you know Lanky but try not to stress until you have spoken to the vet. You don't want your baby coming too soon! But lots of Hugs on their way to you xxxx

 

[*hic*]

So sorry for you but just to add to some of the others, it doesn't sound pain-related to me. You say he's still alert and happy - that doesn't sound like a horse in sufficient pain to drop weight. I'd get the vet out to check but if I were you I'd be asking for enough bute to make absolutely certain it isn't pain for a course of a couple of weeks to see if he picks up. If he does you then need to rule out whether it was the spring grass coming through that perked him up or the painkilling effect of the bute.

Best of luck.

 

[LankyDoodle]

is it though a really high degree of pain?? if its not then i personally wouldnt think that it is causing him to lose weight.
It is possible that being out of work just doesnt suit him and this is your cause. IF you really think it is pain related, why not try him on a low does of bute over a couple of weeks to see if the weight side of things pick up, at least this way you wuld know for sure rather than just guessing.

feed wise i hear you about the cerals but how about trying oil, or something like equi jewel (rice bran high oil) one of the issues with big horses is if you try and feed the reccomended daily allowences it a) costs rather a lot and b) the feeds are huge. with some thing along the lines of blue chip/equi jewel its fed by the mug full and works out to be a much better way to feed, and you can still feed you chaffs and sugarbeets.

Being out of work is not the problem. The reason our friends sold him was because they didn't have time to work him as she does BSJA with 2 other horses she owns and has a yard to run, so he was not used to his potential before (a hack a month maybe!?), which is perhaps why it took so many years for the OCD that developed many years ago to show up according to the vet.

As for how severe the pain is, that's the frustrating thing because you can't ask a horse and get an answer! But I'd say imagine having no cartilage between the joints in your knee and that is the position he is in, with arthritis further down the leg and other boney changes further up. So I don't know how much pain he is in, but Andrew Walker and Tim from Liphook (the surgeon who travelled down to do the surgery) both told me the horse was unlikely to ever be ridden again and that he'd have on and off lameness throughout his life.

He is a big horse but he's always been a good doer apart from in the depths of winter when extra fibre-filled feeds would do the job just nicely. He's never had any problem before... this is a new thing, and as I said, last year he was in harsher conditions despite the fact we have had a colder winter, simply because we were at livery on squashed grazing.

I forgot to say also that he is on some bute on vet advice. I've always been of the ilk that if a horse is lame then it's because they are in pain... I only limp because my leg hurts. If it doesn't hurt then it's just a pain in the ass to limp! When the lameness was mild then I'd say perhaps yes he was in mild pain, but he puts in hops when he turns and often when he trots, so it's got to be painful.

I don't want to put a horse down if he is healthy, but at the same time, I have to look at how this horse has coped with worse weather conditions in the past and weigh things up. I also include in my assessment the fact that this horse, although once full of potential, was never used a great extent and is just as happy in the field as he is being ridden. He hasn't been ridden since last July, but it's only recently the weight has dropped.

 

[LankyDoodle]

I agree with JHoward, As you know I lost my horse to the same problem but he never dropped off weight. He was in a considerable amount of pain and this is why I pts he was in this much pain on 2 danilon per day which is why I knew I needed to do the right thing.

Speak to the vet but I would imagine and hope that it is just the change in weather, dropping off his muscle and being fed up with it being nice, then raining etc like we are.

Only you know Lanky but try not to stress until you have spoken to the vet. You don't want your baby coming too soon! But lots of Hugs on their way to you xxxx

Thank you. You see the thing is, it's only 3-4 weeks ago that I saw David my vet and he said Lanky looked in great shape for a horse not in work and was the perfect weight, so I'm also hoping it's to do with the grass. But then the extra lameness is concerning me. David has a thin line to tread between happy horse and unhappy horse. Lanky was still alert and happy when David last saw him in March which was one reason he said he was not a PTS case which made me happy, and yes he is still quite alert now but I'm not sure if I'd say he is happy as such. I just don't know. I wish they could speak! So frustrating.

 

[LankyDoodle]

So sorry for you but just to add to some of the others, it doesn't sound pain-related to me. You say he's still alert and happy - that doesn't sound like a horse in sufficient pain to drop weight. I'd get the vet out to check but if I were you I'd be asking for enough bute to make absolutely certain it isn't pain for a course of a couple of weeks to see if he picks up. If he does you then need to rule out whether it was the spring grass coming through that perked him up or the painkilling effect of the bute.

Best of luck.

He is definitely still alert and gets a strop on if he's not first in from the field for eg. He's still got all his character there... Not sure if he's happy as such, as there is definite pain there and he can be seen to pull the leg in a jerky way if he lands wrongly on it when walking/trotting. He does hop in trot sometimes and nearly always when turning. He struggles when getting down and up from a roll... for comparison, my 19 year old cob runs rings round him! However, I do think I need to chat to the vet and see what he says.

 

[AmyMay]

is it though a really high degree of pain??

I think it can be debateable on how much pain some horses 'show' us. I looked after a horse for someone for 8 months who looked better on the day I put him down than he ever had in the 4 or 5 years that she had owned him. However, the obvious discomfort felt in his feet manifested itself in some odd standing positions (is the best way to describe it), and the hair on his front fetlocks at the front were rubbed away raw.

This horse looked in tip top condition when he went - but his discomfort even on 4 bute a day was obvious with hindsight.

 

[Scheherezade]

No words of advice but just wanted to express my sympathy for what you are going through.

I have a young gelding diagnosed with OCD in right hock. It is quite bad, but he was barely lame, so vet is happy to bring him into work. Fingers crossed he will be ok, but he was an absolute monster throwing himself around last night, so I am worried he'll have hurt himself and gone a step backwards.

Following vets advice, I also have him on equine america pure Glucosamine. It is only £16 for a big tub, so may be worth a try?

Talk to the vet. As someone mentioned earlier, it has been a long harsh winter, and with them losing winter coat and summer coat being finer he may just be feeling the cold. It might also be that he has a completely unrelated issue, horsey cold or such like.

Best
xxx

 

[LankyDoodle]

Also meant to say JHoward, that he'd have veg oil in his feed.

 

[lochpearl]

I agree with AM here, Lotto looked the happiest and healthiest on the day he was pts than he had done in about a year!

However just to point out, I was told that when they took the cartilage away that it would show him as mechanically unsound, obviously with the arthritis etc there is bound to be some pain but just remember when they took the cartilage away it was bound to make him wonky and yes on a good day he would look sounder than on a bad day but it doesn't necessarily mean more pain.

Speak to the vet, although mine was not pts under BEVA like you I just wanted the best for my boy and after having a frank discussion with my vet the decision was made.

 

[LankyDoodle]

Thanks lochpearl. I know and remember the pain you went through when making the decision about your horse.

I don't want to feel like I'm not giving him a chance. Another of my vets, Graham, has had the meniscus repaired in one leg and removed in the other and said his knees will never be the same again but they'll have a fight on their hands if they try putting him down. But it's so hard with animals... how do you know, truly, when a horse has had enough? With our mare it was obvious - she just lay down and looked like she wanted to go, pleaded with us and it breaks my heart to this day thinking about her looking like that. I don't want Lanky to get to a stage where he looks like that. I never want to see another animal go downhill that fast and suffer like that again. With Lanky, he doesn't seem to complain about anything... he will do as asked and doesn't have a malicious bone in him; and sorry to say it about him, but he has a bit of a dopey look about him anyway so it's hard to tell if he's feeling sorry for himself or just having an average day. LOL. I just don't want to make the decision too late.

And thank you brambleandmonty. It sounds like your horse has been caught in time. Half the problem with Lanky was that they didn't catch it until he was 8 years old, so it was so far progressed and so much damage had been done it was a case of a patch-up job. If he'd been caught as a yearling or even slightly later, perhaps he'd still be in work now.

Whatever happens, I do trust Andrew and especially Tim's judgement that this is not a riding horse now. My only debate is over his level of welfare.

 

[AmyMay]

My only debate is over his level of welfare.

And this is the thing that really tears us apart.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Having had to have 2 large horses pts at relatively young ages, I understand your dilemma. I'm sorry to say that I think you are coming to the right conclusion, 'lameness = pain' and that the weight loss is probably pain-related. Obviously your vets are the best people to talk to about this but the worst thing about owning/caring for animals is the final decision is yours. In the meantime, you could try feeding grassnuts for weight gain. They worked really well when our oldie lost weight unexpectedly, in last summer's very wet weather. I have also found magnet therapy effective for pain control in arthritic conditions.