What would you do?

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indie999

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Help My lovely spaniel who is coming up 5 years and entire has taken a dislike to another new entire dog on the scene.

Hasnt drawn blood but it started when a bitch was on heat whilst out walking and he just went for this dog. I am sure this is just territorial wanting to keep the bitch for himself etc! Saw the new pup as a threat etc

Then we have another new entire pup appear whose silly owner is feeding treats and my dog sits and waits for one but isnt given one so he has started attacking her dog.

Its a lot of growling and I am worried my dog is going to get a reputation as being some dog attacker! Do I get his nuts off as none of the dogs or bitches are castrated etc where we live. It has never been a problem either just too many new pups around. I feel its more the owners getting anxious as at the moment my dog wards them off with lots of growling and warnings.

Am I being unreasonable too? I was hoping to have a new pup myself from my dog but am now thinking to get him castrated which I am reluctant to do as he is usually a good boy. I do tell him off for his behaviour and he does listen. But I am worried he could draw blood etc

What to do
 
Probably no help but if you don't want to castrate him could you do some leave it / watch me exercises to take the focus of the other dogs and if he starts growling etc. walk off in the other direction until he's calm again?
 
How are you reacting?
I used to pussyfoot around my dog in case I 'scared' or 'hurt' him, but he wasn't too far off what some people called 'red zone' aggression towards other dogs, mainly through his own insecurity/poor socialisation and my weak handling, and behaviour which aggravated it.

I would try to get to a good training class - a fresh pair of eyes makes all the difference.
I thought I was doing all the right things and I just had a bad dog - when my behaviour, my attitude and my timing/type of correction was actually wrong, wrong, wrong!

He never drew blood or even made contact either but it was still not acceptable behaviour. He will never be 100% but he is a million times better than he was, because I can see the signs/triggers and am better able to control myself, and me!
 
why wouldnt you just castrate him any way , unless hes a champion show dog and has a queue of bitches waiting why would you let him spend his life frustrated , yes sure you can train him better but if you love the dog and want whats best for him get him castrated
 
PLEASE put your dog on a lead!!!!

I am an owner on the other side of this and I am sick to the back teeth of it am actually now not walking my dog in my local area (which is great for dog walking) because of an anti-social dog. (which is also an ESS, but I'm sure the world is not that small to be the same one!)

The 1st time the Spaniel went for mine, the daughters of the dog were walking it. My boy was only 4 months old and was next to me going to the toilet and they came round the corner with it on the lead and they let it off right next to him and walked off. Dog started to walk with them, and then my boy was finished and started walking. They met half way and the Spaniel just flew at him, pinning him to the ground making snarling noises. My boy got away and came screaming (literally) back to me. No marks, but I was in shock and the girls said "he's got issues with other dogs" (thanks! for letting him off next to my off lead puppy!!)

Didn't see him again for a while, then I was walking down a narrow path, owner must have been power walking and caught us up and it went for him again, but luckily mine got away (I didn't see the dog till it happened).

Then a month or so ago I saw it again in the distance. Called my boy and put him on the lead. Owner allowed her dog to approach mine, didn't even call him and he flew at my boy. I put myself in between and got him away. Said to the owner "put your dog on a lead" and she replied her dog didn't do anything!! What?! He charged at my dog snarling and very agressive.

The the next NIGHT exactly the same happened. She didn't even bother saying a word. I turned and said if it happened one more time I'll be calling the dog warden. And I will!!!

But I don't like agro, so now just don't walk him in my area. I don't want my boy to be continually traumatised. He's sensitive and it is effecting him.

The effect her dog had on my boy when he was small was huge. I had to work really hard with my dog trainer to get him ok with dogs again. That 1st incident totally freaked him out and then any time a dog apprached to fast or barked he literally bolted!

The 1st 2 times i couldn't prevent, but the 2nd 2 I did everything I could to prevent it and the owner is just totally irresponsible. It is totally out of order to allow your dog to approach another dog, particularly if it's on a lead, and have a go at it agressively.

When you see a dog in the distance. Put yours on a lead. If the other dogs owner then allows it to approach yours then it is their fault.

I couldn't give you advise on how to improve the problem. When my boy had his problem after he was first attacked I had a dog trainer who organised group dog walks etc to get him over his fear.
 
You will be glad to know I am not in Hampshire! Its not my spaniel this problem has never ever happened until the new pup(we have had other new dogs etc but he just doesnt like the dog, I know why this started.A bitch that was with another walker was on heat(my dog grew up with this neighbours bitch) and they crowded her the next thing I know is my dog has attacked the pup). In the first 4 years of his life he never ever growled at a soul! He has attended dog classes and as far as I was aware is completely socialised. He would always recall too.


I agree its unfair to let him continue to be frustrated in this way and am starting to think I should get him castrated. However I have taken advice and he is getting a very good prod with a cane and a big NO if he even thinks about growling at this dog, I met the other dog pup since posting and we had a bit of barking at him but I have let him know that its unacceptable behaviour. He is actually alright with the pup as long as it doesnt lie down and become submissive, as soon as it lies down thats it, in he goes!

It all seems to stem from the bitch on heat incidence. In the past any dogs/bitches I have owned we always got DONE, but no one round here seems to do that.

But I am now thinking they should all be DONE!
 
"Its not my spaniel this problem has never ever happened until the new pup" - er, yes it is your spaniel, sorry, that's why you are asking for advice - my dog can be a thug in certain situations- you admit the problem and you put the work in :) and yes, castration will probably help.

If I'm honest, your post is confusing me, there are a lot of dogs in your post! Where is this happening, out on walks?

I thought this was interesting:

"Then we have another new entire pup appear whose silly owner is feeding treats and my dog sits and waits for one but isnt given one so he has started attacking her dog."

Your dog shouldn't be attacking someone else's dog because it is getting a treat. Your dog shouldn't be going over begging treats off other people if he is food possessive.
My dog is food-driven, I hope you don't think I am silly for feeding it.

Also, I don't think pups go to training classes and you get a magically trained dog that never has to see a trainer ever again in it's life, if you need a bit more help, go and get it, that's what they're there for :)

Also, try not to pre-empt an 'attack' as in, OMG he's going to go for the pup, or get tense yourself, your dog will feel you get tense and associate that with his 'enemy' and be even more likely to show aggression.
 
I'm a little bit confused about what has happened so apologies if I have this totally wrong, but is it the case that you have an entire dog off the lead who has started attacking other dogs? Has he attacked two dogs, one of which was a puppy which he is attacking when the puppy is being submissive and the other is a dog being trained by its owner which your dog is attacking because the other owner won't feed him?

If all that is correct, I don't really see why other dogs/owners are at fault. Your dog seems to be displaying quite serious aggression. If he were mine I would castrate asap and talk to a very trustworthy behaviourist for help asap. Meanwhile I would keep him on a lead at all times and use a muzzle if necessary. Are you using a cane to prod him to get him to stop? Personally I would not do this unless advised to as you are risking making him more aggressive.

Best of luck.
 
It seems to me you are blaming everbody but yourself. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Your dog is the problem and you need to address it, book him in to be neutered,muzzle him and book him into a training class with a behaviourist.

Prodding with a stick isnt going to do it, if I did it to any of my two I wouldnt have a stick left.
 
No I am not denying this at all.

The story is someone walks their bitch who is on heat(is that irresponsible because this happens all the time and has never been a problem for my entire dog, he walks with other entire dogs that he knows and its never caused any rows etc). New big pup comes along and bitch surrounds it, with another bitch. My dog who is friends with both bitches since he was a puppy has a go at the new pup. This was the trigger!

He was getting on with this pup and another pup until we had the bitch on heat incidence.

You are missing the point too this has not happened before and he has not attacked any other dog EVER!

This is the first time this happens and now it has he has got it in for this pup who still has his nuts on too. So we have a big storm brewing. New pup is competition in his territory.
Usually I dont walk my dog if the bitches are on heat round here he stays indoors.

Yes today I saw the big pup and yes I did put my dog on the lead straight away as he does stay with me off lead in the field.

The problem that you seem to be missing too is that all of the dogs Yes ALL the dogs and bitches in our village are not castrated etc I am amazed we do not have more problems.

He is not some hooligan hound out of complete control and savaging little children etc(sorry I have just re read and I am not sure if the 4 month old is a child or a dog now)?. I have probably made him sound worse than he is. If you have got a local dog that is causing this kind of issue forget the dog warden my advice to you is call the police, that is serious!

And yes I do think its wrong for someone to get a treat out when they know my dog hasnt been too friendly to their dog a few minutes before. I would say red rag to a bull(rewarding bad behaviour like giving a horse a carrot if its just kicked you eh)?. And I did say my dog was sitting waiting for his reward, from the other owner. But I most certainly do not think its normal to get food out if a dog has been defensive even if I am in the wrong! Food is how most people train dogs. My dog is trained not to touch his food bowl until we say so. Other dog owners including this one have got treats out before and my dog has not attacked but sat waiting for his turn.

I was purely asking What would you do? Not some well your dog is out of control etc hysterical responses! I did ask a local trainer about a muzzle yesterday and they know my dog and they told me him having a go is putting the pups in a pecking order and that I must nip him on his back to reprimand him on his back end.Hence I am using a cane to poke him if he even dare utter a rumble, this is to mimick a nip.I did do this this afternoon and it appeared to have worked. This takes place in the middle of a huge corn field not in the local park. This trainer is training one of the pups! I was trying to make sure I was doing the right things by posting the question. Before I get him DONE!


So perhaps my next question is its ok to walk a bitch on heat too? Always look for the trigger?
 
Youve asked for advice and we have all given you the benefit of our experience. If its not what you want to hear so be it.

The bitch in heats owner has to walk somewhere thats a risk she has to take but IMO all dogs not used for breeding should be spayed or neutered.

As for the owner who was feeding their dogs treats after having a run in with yours is why not? they were just trying to soothe their pup. How would you feel if you met someone with a bigger dog than yours and it kept trying to have a go at your dog? I sure you would not be happy and rightly so.

Also if my trainer was telling me what yours is I would find another trainer.
 
indie999 said:
No I am not denying this at all.

The story is someone walks their bitch who is on heat(is that irresponsible because this happens all the time and has never been a problem for my entire dog, he walks with other entire dogs that he knows and its never caused any rows etc). New big pup comes along and bitch surrounds it, with another bitch. My dog who is friends with both bitches since he was a puppy has a go at the new pup. This was the trigger!

So essentially nobody in your area should get a new pup and walk it/socialize it in case it upsets your dog?

He was getting on with this pup and another pup until we had the bitch on heat incidence.

You are missing the point too this has not happened before and he has not attacked any other dog EVER!

I think you might be missing the point. It may not have happened ever, but is is happening now. Your dog is the one causing rifts and I'm afraid the responsibility falls upon you to fix or manage the problem dog.

This is the first time this happens and now it has he has got it in for this pup who still has his nuts on too. So we have a big storm brewing. New pup is competition in his territory.

There is no big storm brewing unless you allow it. The locale where you walk is not your dog's territory. You should not think that way, and nor should your dog ever be allowed to think that way. I assume you walk in public areas since you meet other members of the public whilst walking. They have a right to walk their dogs without being harassed by your lad; just because he gets on with some of the regular dogs he meets in the area does not mean he gets to decide who is or is not an acceptable new 'neighbour'.

Usually I dont walk my dog if the bitches are on heat round here he stays indoors.

Yes today I saw the big pup and yes I did put my dog on the lead straight away as he does stay with me off lead in the field.

The problem that you seem to be missing too is that all of the dogs Yes ALL the dogs and bitches in our village are not castrated etc I am amazed we do not have more problems.

But if those other dogs are not causing a problem then it is irrelevant to your situation. Your dog is the one that is throwing his weigh around, not the other entire dogs in your village. So whilst it would make life easier if every pooch in the village had enjoyed that particular trip to the vets- the problem essentially still stems from your dog.

He is not some hooligan hound out of complete control and savaging little children etc(sorry I have just re read and I am not sure if the 4 month old is a child or a dog now)?. I have probably made him sound worse than he is. If you have got a local dog that is causing this kind of issue forget the dog warden my advice to you is call the police, that is serious!

And yes I do think its wrong for someone to get a treat out when they know my dog hasnt been too friendly to their dog a few minutes before. I would say red rag to a bull(rewarding bad behaviour like giving a horse a carrot if its just kicked you eh)?. And I did say my dog was sitting waiting for his reward, from the other owner. But I most certainly do not think its normal to get food out if a dog has been defensive even if I am in the wrong!

What?! Food or a ball is how I reward my dog. I should not have to retract my dog's reward or cease training because your dog is at my heels eyeballing me. In this case your dog should have been recalled immediately! Not left to sit there at the other owners feet whilst he/she is trying to train- only to cause problems when he is ignored! If I want to get out food rewards for my dog then I will. And I will most likely ignore any begging from your dog as I would be waiting for you, the owner, to call him off.

Food is how most people train dogs. My dog is trained not to touch his food bowl until we say so. Other dog owners including this one have got treats out before and my dog has not attacked but sat waiting for his turn.

My dog will sit and wait, staring at his full bowl of food, for the release word that says 'you can eat now'. But I will also use treats in training. For MY dog. I don't want to be mugged by yours. I understand that it might happen as a lapse (my pockets smell yummy!) but you should be calling your dog away or making an effort to grab him. I'm human, I've been there, I'll laugh at the doggy transgression because no right minded person could expect a dog not to chance it at a nice bit of cheese :p But you're human and your charge is pushing at social boundaries, so come get him! Letting him sit and wait his turn is not fair. How am I meant to know if you allow your dogs to have treats, or what they can have, or for what behaviour? You simply should not allow your dog to sit and beg from other handlers whilst out walking, unless you are good friends. It's only common sense.

I was purely asking What would you do? Not some well your dog is out of control etc hysterical responses! I did ask a local trainer about a muzzle yesterday and they know my dog and they told me him having a go is putting the pups in a pecking order and that I must nip him on his back to reprimand him on his back end.Hence I am using a cane to poke him if he even dare utter a rumble, this is to mimick a nip.I did do this this afternoon and it appeared to have worked. This takes place in the middle of a huge corn field not in the local park. This trainer is training one of the pups! I was trying to make sure I was doing the right things by posting the question. Before I get him DONE!

People gave you advice based on your post. Your post had a 'it's their fault, not mine!' tone to it and so you received stronger advice for that. It's great that you're getting your dog done and have spoken to a trainer, but a situation like this needs to be managed. Making excuses about pups on his territory and people having entire bitches at the end of the day will not solve YOUR problem.

So perhaps my next question is its ok to walk a bitch on heat too? Always look for the trigger?
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I'm sorry for making notes within your quote. I know it's harder to read but I've yet to find out how to split a quote on this forum. Pure laziness sorry!

And I'm sorry if my answers seem harsh. I do sympathize in a way. My 11 month old has recently taken to bullying pups and submissive 'wriggly type' dogs if he can. However I recognize the fact that he gets over the top with rough play if the other dog doesn't reprimand or ignore him, and I watch for any signs. It's my job to manage/supervise his behaviour and ensure he doesn't upset other young or nervous dogs or their owners whilst walking. He's my problem and I have to keep on top of him and keep working at it. Blaming others for being in my general vicinity would get me nowhere.
 
Agree with Pix on this ^^^^^^^

Also
If I was to walk my dog acros the field and one of my dogs were to go running upto a sheep for eg. would I say that it was the sheep fault as it was fluffy and baaaing? or my fault for not controling my dog?:o

YOUR dog went for another dog-you say is a younger smaller new to the area puppy. Id be absolutely fuming if that were my pup and I would have said something to you quite possibly a few swear words!:eek:

Get your dog castrated you never know the locals might follow suit and get there entire dogs done!! and if you go get some decent training done with your dog then they might get the hint on that too??;)


If posting for advice I think its safe to say you will get advice that is usually sound and logical.
If you disregard all advice then your situation will not improve.
I for one read comments by a lot of the posters on this thread and often in the dog forum in general. Often its stuff I already know(wow how smug does that sound!):rolleyes: Sometimes its not.
I dont know everything and hope I never do,but seriously.....kop on to your dogs behavior as something you can be and are responsible for in a public place.:)
 
I don't think anyone is giving you hysterical responses, just advice you can choose to ignore.

If you have a number of entire males and a female in heat all off the lead you will almost certainly get fights and possibly puppies. I agree with you that the other owners are irresponsible in allowing their dogs off the lead in such a situation, but so are you. Who did it first or who came last on the scene is irrelevant. Put your dog on a lead and walk him somewhere else.

I also agree with the above poster who said you need a new behaviourist, their advice so far may well get you bitten.
 
Hmm. I'd put my dog on the lead and retrain him with the leave or walk on command.

Funnily enough, my adult ESS was always attacked by another ESS who always protected the ESS bitch with whom he lived. Confused? So was I, especially when the owner never recalled his dog.

I don't know about the automatic 'must neuter' cry. It might be different with the current pups I have, but my first two weren't cut and were never out of sight. They both had fab recall and would come back no matter what else was going on. Brig has never evinced any interest in girls, bless him. I don't think he knows what girls are.

I hear the good health benefits about neutering, but having read what I can find about pros/cons, there are slightly more health benefits to not neutering. Would it change behaviour? Possibly, dunno. Listening to people on here, yes, they have the experience, please listen to them. Your dog is your baby, but they're not all perfect angels!
 
Get your dog castrated, and tell every other dog walker/owner you meet that you have done so. Not only does it have health benefits, but prevents these sort of incidents. If you're not using your dog for breeding there is absolutely no reason and no benefit to keeping him entire.
Throw that stick away! Aggression feeds aggression! All you are doing is confusing your dog and making an already frustrated dog even more so. It is not kind and it is counter productive.
 
Get your dog castrated - as someone else has said unless he is a breed champion show dog it is completely unnecessary to have an entire dog. As for using a stick to 'prod' your dog - get another trainer or don't be surprised if your dog doesn't one day turn on the stick or you.

I don't generally get involved in these threads but the whole turn if post makes me feel very sad for your dog:(
 
If you cannot be bothered to put your uncontrolled dog on a lead in public places then get rid of it. Rehome it to someone who will care about it and work with it. Be a responsible dog owner.
 
It would be more to the point that owners were not so utterly inconsiderate as to take bitches in season out walking around entire dogs,would it not? THAT is the reason for all of the OP`s trouble. A really stupid thing to do..is this owner brain dead..or what?
 
EAST KENT said:
It would be more to the point that owners were not so utterly inconsiderate as to take bitches in season out walking around entire dogs,would it not? THAT is the reason for all of the OP`s trouble. A really stupid thing to do..is this owner brain dead..or what?
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Why bother posting on a thread about dogs when you clearly know nothing about them? What are people supposed to do with bitches who live in appartments or properties without an outside space? Leave them in the bathroom to use the toilet? How ignorant to make bitches in the season the reason for the OP's trouble. Or there again maybe you also think all women should be sterilised unless they sign a document stating they wish to have children.

It would be more to the point for all dog owners to keep all their dogs on leads in public. Unfortuantely it is the attitude of peope like the OP who will ultimately one day be the reason that a countrywide leash law is brought in for the whole of the UK.
 
Oh dear, I reward my dog with food for recall, how silly of me....

I think we all know my dog is not perfect, and indeed he has been found sitting very prettily at other people's feet in the past waiting for a sweetie:rolleyes: (hello... I notice you have sweeties... can you see how adorable I am?) but that is the point I go and get him and apologise, rather than blaming the other person for daring to train their dog while I am within a ten mile radius.

And seriously - a little stick?! Are you my Grandma?! Cos that's her training advice - of course she's in her eighties and has never had a dog in her life! I never knew she was moonlighting as a dog trainer!:eek:
 
I think any dog should be castrated or spade IMO I think there are too many unwanted dogs in the world and if you don't intend to use him for breeding then I'd get it done. I expect some of the more experienced on here will help but I wonder if at 5 it will make a difference if he already knows what 'on heat' means ???? and already has aggresive feelings, do they lose this once castrated at that age ?? I don't know, maybe ask your vet
 
cefyl said:
Why bother posting on a thread about dogs when you clearly know nothing about them? What are people supposed to do with bitches who live in appartments or properties without an outside space? Leave them in the bathroom to use the toilet? How ignorant to make bitches in the season the reason for the OP's trouble. Or there again maybe you also think all women should be sterilised unless they sign a document stating they wish to have children.

It would be more to the point for all dog owners to keep all their dogs on leads in public. Unfortuantely it is the attitude of peope like the OP who will ultimately one day be the reason that a countrywide leash law is brought in for the whole of the UK.
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The mother of the GSD I used to have, used to be locked in a stable when she was in season and not come out at all, she used to be thrown in scraps and dead chickens, she died not long after having her first litter, a few months later she was dead. I really wish I'd said something at the time. Not sure what that adds to the debate but just an idea of stupid/cruel people can be. My dog died at 6 1/2 of an enlarged heart and spleen, no wonder, what life his mum had.
 
EAST KENT said:
It would be more to the point that owners were not so utterly inconsiderate as to take bitches in season out walking around entire dogs,would it not? THAT is the reason for all of the OP`s trouble. A really stupid thing to do..is this owner brain dead..or what?
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My OH's sons dog is not yet spayed. We walk her whilst on heat, and have never experienced any problems at all.

It's really not about whether a dog has been spayed or neutered - it's about their training and their handlers ability to recognise when and if there is a problem.

OP clearly has a problem - so needs to do something about it.
 
First off I do think it is irresponsible of owners to walk their bitches when they are in heat. I do not take any bitch off the premises when they are in heat or, when I lived in town took them in the car to a remote area for exercise.
Secondly, you should have control over your dog at all times. I have had stud dogs and bitches at the same time and would have control to stop them from fighting each other or other dogs.
I hasten to add that as soon as I have decided to either not breed from a dog or bitch then they are neutered but only when they are fully mature and only bred from when they have proven they are breed worthy.
 
I met up through a friend, a group of husky owners last Sunday. They meet every week in a huge puplic enclosed field as there they allow them all off lead for a hoon. There was approx 8 people and 22 dogs.

As I joined them (my boys off lead as usual) one lady asked if mine were entire - I said nope both been done why? 4 of the bitches were in season she informed me. no worries, mine had never shown an interest.

However, one bitch was VERY flirty. Backing onto both my boys and laying on the ground legs akimbo :eek: :D My boys didn't know where to look and both tried to hump her every time she backed onto them. I had never known either of them try this let alone both.

Put them on leads and left the group. Would love to meet up with them again but not while any bitches are on heat as now I know the effect it had :(

Was pretty pissed off TBH and did feel that they were irresponsible to have that many in season bitches in such a busy field. They were fending off a lot of dogs that came over - had they have been entire one could have been caught.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
First off I do think it is irresponsible of owners to walk their bitches when they are in heat. I do not take any bitch off the premises when they are in heat or, when I lived in town took them in the car to a remote area for exercise.
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I completely agree that you have to be sensible about it, yes. But not to exercise them for up to 4 weeks is simply not fair.

Like you - we pack up in to the car and walk in quieter places (on the lead), or at a time of day locally when it is quiet.

Like all these things - apply with sensibility and there is no reason to have a problem.:)
 
Mollichop you would have thought they would have more sense wouldnt you. Im sure the owners couldnt have enjoyed the day fending off all those dogs. Bitches in heat need walking but in sensible places but that situation was just asking for trouble.
 
I think the issue is you seem to think your dog has territorial rights in a space that isn't exclusively your own.

Maybe if you don't regard it as 'his' territory, than he won't either.
I'm also not impressed with people taking bitches in season out in public areas but you aren't in a position to solve that one - however annoying it is.
 
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