What would you expect to pay...

Forgot to add... a mare
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mat_b... would you have expected it to have been out competing at 4?

I know breeding effects the price too, but let's for arguments say a mare of good breeding, with the potential to get to GP and around the 17hh mark...
 
Bare in mind the majority of top world class potential horses are usually owned by very wealthy people, who see these horses as fairly priceless and can afford to turn down offers unless they are for serious bucks. Don't really know dressage prices, but as S_C says, six figures?
 
Depends. Are we talking something that can get to GP but will never be a serious contender at that level. Or are we talking something that can get to GP and then be a serious international prospect.

If the latter, then you're gonna be talking serious serious money. You also then have to be realistic about why its for sale. If its a true star in the making, then they dont usually appear on either the open market or to the mere mortals amongst us.

If we're talking something that has the potential to go there but never be a true contender at that level (i suppose this is the category mine then falls into), then id still think 12k is being optimistic really.

Thing is - accurately judging potential can be a b*tch ;p
 
I completely agree about judging potential...

I also agree that there must be a reason for them being sold, but surely, some top horses get sold because they just do not 'get on' with people and perhaps just 'click' with someone else???

Would you rather buy a just backed 3 year old, or a ridden 4 year old? But preferably interested in prices for something backed...
 
I think 6-10k for a quality 4 year old is about the right price. I wouldn't pay more for 'potential' as it really does not mean much at that age and so much could go wrong. But then I'm a amatuer rider with limited money to buy horses. I suppose those who have unlimited funds are happy to pay silly money to most likely throw away on a horse that doesn't make the grade.

I would like to see a 4 year old at least out at one or 2 low key events but wouldn't worry about it's results or if it had done any affiliated.
 
I agree. You can't put a price on 'potential'. No one can say a horse will get to GP until they are there. How do you know it will be able to handle that level of pressure? It may be able to do the movements but until it is is that arena putting it all together, you won't know how well it will handle it. So, paying for 'potential' is not really realistic.

However, the breeding will give you an idea but unfortunately no guarantees.
 
If its got the potential/breeding to go to Grand Prix anything from 20/30k upwards. But at the sales (here and abroad) horses like that go for stupid money (ie 200k upwards).
 
Yes, of course top horses come up for sale but if they have absolute top potential, they tend to go via word of mouth to equally top riders or wealthy owners who sponser top riders. Does that make sense? You dont generally see star quality horses for sale on the open market - unless they are retiring perhaps but even then they tend to get passed on, again, by word of mouth or go on loan to young riders.

I dont know the situation here, but if something really does have top level potential, you then have to consider why its for sale.

Back to the topic. I understand people saying 4-10k for a youngster because potential is near impossible to gauge accurately... so many things can go wrong. The sad (and realistic) fact is however, that most horses with good breeding, that show the potential for piaffe and passage, have good paces and true star potential will go for a lot more money than that and I think Tempi will back me up on this
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In regards to unbacked versus backed. Tough one for me! If its 4 years old and a serious competition prospect; id be expecting that its been out a bit. While the actual competition experience would be useful in my eyes, my one concern would be HOW its been ridden. Theres a lot of unpleasant practices going on these days in the form of rollkur and draw rein riding and its really really hard to undo. So much of it would depend on where the horse had come from and how it was working. If it was showing obvious signs of being rollkured, pushed too much, over pressured, then i wouldnt be interested and would prefer to look for something unbacked. If it was coming from a reasonable source and clearly hadnt had its brain fried or its head pinned to its chest; then id prefer backed.
 
Tierra, that is what concerned me regarding something of this age that had been backed... I think I would rather something be unbacked, so that its education can be carried out in the way I would like it to be, and backed sympathetically.
 
Yea its a concern for sure. Personally (but remember, ive all but given up the competition lark), id want something either unbacked, or id be sourcing from someone who is more traditionally trained.

I really wouldnt want a brain fried, rollkured horsey, even if it did have superstar potential. So many of them break down at a relatively young age due to harsh training methods.
 
I agree... what worries with getting a backed 3 year old is how much work they have done already. I know my WBx was not ready to work until she was 5 because she was still maturing and growing.
 
Yep. Aside from the implications of backing and working horses that arent physically mature (and as you already mentioned, the WBs are traditionally slow maturers), theres the issue with the psychologically stress and undoing the mess that can be created in the rollkured horses.

Psychologically, they can just break down and need serious time out. I previously had a show jumper who'd been doing 1 metre 50 courses in holland and came to us at 4 years old, refusing point blank to jump. He was a complete wreck and ultimately got thrown ina field for 18 months to mature, chill and learn to be a horse.

From a schooling point of view, rollkur can set you back years. Its really really hard to undo the damage that rollkur and working in draw reins does and it can take ages. So in that scenario, the work they have done can not only hold ZERO weight, but it can also be detrimental. (At least if its unbacked, it can be started correctly from word go... rather than first undoing a mess and then starting over).

But, as i said, i dont compete anymore for numerous reasons.. so i have time to just produce a youngster as slowly as is required. For competition peeps, it can be a bit different.
 
Tierra, can I ask whether you think the use of rollkur is widespread? You seem to be implying that it is used by a large number of trainers. Also, I don't think that any trainer would start a just backed horse using rollkur......or do you consider riding deep in any form akin to rollkur?
 
I think the use of rollkur is very widespread and most definitly so in mainland europe. I dont think its limited to top level riders either; indeed i believe one of the massive dangers of rollkur is the fact that amateur level and young riders copy the practices of their idols such as Anky.

I spent a number of years before leaving the UK based with a uk GP rider who is also heavily involved in the training of the BYRDs teams. She sourced many horses for different clients with different needs and the common trend was that they had either been ridden very very deeply or draw reined at a young age to produce extremely advanced outlines way out of synch with their age.

In this time we also had a number of very well known names visiting the yard and seeing the horses worked far too deeply was common place.

While there are many out there who adhere to traditional training methods; there are many who have to produce horses quickly and use less traditional methods which i dont agree with (this covers rollkur, LDR, draw rein riding and other "techniques")
 
Interesting......and rather scary.

I work my horse deep. It helps to get him really swinging over the back and keeps him from using his big strong neck against me. But I always make sure I bring him up so that he isn't "down there" for long periods - I bring him deep and slow for a few strides, then up again and forward. But this is a seven year old.....

I've seen Anky ride and I think that there is a huge difference between riding "deep" and riding "rollkur". I would hate to think that people are trying to copy Anky and cranking their horses' heads in......especially young horses.
 
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