What would you have done differently?

[Caol Ila]

The details of the saga with my youngster's feet have been documented elsewhere, so not getting into too much of that here. While I plan on never getting an unhandled horse again, I keep wondering what I could have done better.

The cliff notes are that she was an unhandled two-year old who had never seen a farrier/trimmer in her life, nor had anyone even picked up her feet. Her feet were in an absolute state. Like starting to curl into that slipper shape. And she was very, very defensive about them. Attempts to pick up her hind feet were hazardous. Still, given the awful condition of her hooves, I rushed her into seeing a farrier. First couple attempts involved quite a lot of Domosedan, but then we had to try without, which involved three of us wrangling the horse while the farrier hung onto her foot for dear life. Not a positive experience. Between visits, I practiced with rasps and hoof stands, but it was always different when it was just me.

She was pregnant, unbeknownst to me, for the first couple months I had her. That may or may not have contributed to her defensiveness. It took months of hard work to pick up her feet and use a hoofpick. Several more months for her to be calm about me looping lead ropes and such around her legs. People I know who own half-siblings, equally as feral, tell me that the feet were not a massive issue for their horses.

Now, she picks up her feet for me like any civiized, broke horse and doesn't care when I get sloppy and drop the long reins, but she has a lot of doubts about farriers/trimmers. I just found a guy willing to quietly help her through that, so we are finally on the right track, but I feel like I screwed up and started off on the wrong one. Had her feet not been in such a state, I would have taken more time to handle them before throwing her down the farrier gauntlet. I just felt it was imperative to deal with the slipper hooves, but maybe it could have waited a bit longer.

For those of you with ferals/rescues/unhandled babies with feet in a messy state, what would you have done?

 

[PurBee]

My gelding was great as a foal with feet handling. He was so compliant and i would smile inside at his willingness to give his feet without any resistance at all. He would hilariously hold his back feet out with leg outstretched like some ballet pose! I felt so blessed to have the opportunity to start from scratch with a young baby, and have all these handling issues that can be potentially difficult with horses, trained-in gentle and easily, stress-free, so he could be an easy to handle horse we all love to have. A true blank canvas. Headcollar sessions were equally as easy. He loved people and loved learning what was taught.

He then went to grow-up in a herd at 6 months, and returned to me at 18 months a bolshy teen. Kicking and biting to get you away from him. Handling his feet was as if he had never been handled at all. I know some details of what occurred while he was away, but mis-placed trust on my part meant he essentially didnt receive what was promised. Also a farrier known for smacking horses had handled him.
Judging by the condition of his feet when he returned they looked like they hadnt received any trimming until just before being returned to me.
He would actively try to kick with his rear feet at me for just attempting to hold them to pick them out, and the rasp sent him loopy, kicky and fidgety.
The fronts he would lean down hard to get his foot out of my hand, or his trump-card trick was to completely tilt his body over onto the side i was handling to feign falling on me to freak me out to drop his foot! Never knew of such behaviour!

I had tried to just persevere, ignore his fidgeting, pulling foot away, but the next session would be the same. I soon learnt not to repeat my behaviour and switched tactics. Whenever he gave the foot, and was still, for even a second, i’d put his foot down, pat him ‘good boy’ vocal. Move to another foot, ask, give, stroke, prod for a few seconds, if still, put foot down. He would be still for initial 10 seconds anyway so this was an easy ‘reward’ system to try to re-wire his brain that i wasnt going to hang onto his feet, for minutes, and fight him. (I suspected he received this kind of farrier technique).
I soon managed to instil the notion in his brain, that if he remains still, he gets a relaxed foot experience and his foot put back down. Slowly i extended the time lifting feet.

Any time in subsequent sessions he got bored and wanted his foot back, instead of grabbing hold and fighting i’d have hold gently of tip of rear hoof, and let him waggle it about while calmly saying ‘just a bit more to do boy, chill now’….keeping very calm/joyful vibes within myself. He would then calm, be still, and even if i wasnt finished with the foot, i’d set it down once he was still again. I constantly rewarded him for being still. I would move to another foot, do a bit on that, move to the previous foot, finish a bit more on that. He wasnt patient enough in the first few months to hold any foot up still for more than a minute. And im not a fast trimmer! I trimmed gently and slowly on purpose initially too, than clang the equipment on his hooves, nor rasp hard and fast.
I noted it was any grabbing of his feet firmly, vice-like, to stop him moving, that re-ignited that farrier grabbing ‘memory’ and he’d fight me.

in retrospect, i can see how a horse would see their fetlocks being vice-gripped between thighs as threatening as having a predator wrapping their jaws around their neck. They need their feet to run, they know theyre potentially dead without the ability to move their legs - it’s like that vice-grip triggers a deep innate carnal survival instinct. Especially moreso with feral/young horses, unused to having feet handled.
All it takes is for one session with a farrier fighting to hang onto the feet of a nervous/unhandled/fairly feral horse to imprint into them a fear of having feet handled.

The initial baby months handling of my gelding was erased as it was mainly due to his age, running unhandled for a year+ with a herd, then another person handling him completely differently to how i taught him.

Most farriers deal with compliant horses, and they’re bound to get the odd few fighting them. Unfortunately due to their time limit they mostly succeed by grabbing hold, horse submitting in that moment, and just getting the job done. But they dont realise how with many, that kind of handling as introduction to farriery, sets a deep memory of fear in the young horse.
I dont blame them, its not their job to train our horses - but i wish they knew what longterm effect it has on the horses and owners handling the hooves. It would be better if farriers turned down a fighting horse, knowing it needs gentle introduction to feet handling instead of grab and trim as fast as possible.

There’s no other route you could have known back then to have done better. Her feet were becoming alladin’s and you got a farrier there, with sedative, as many would, to help her.
Her hot blood aspect might also give her that bit more fight, like my gelding with egyptian arab blood. The sharpness is especially pronounced when fight or flight aspects are challenged in the hotbloods I think. My gelding faces-off danger than flights - he’s quite the brave boy…i call him my guard dog!

We can never know how horses will react, and its only after the fact we piece together what aspects were causative, pivotal to creating an ‘issue’. Undoing issues is possible. Re-training is possible. Regrets are only possible when we learn nothing from past events.
I wish i’d done almost everything (in the whole of life!) differently. The degree of relief i feel when i realise i’ve learnt a whole lot of doing things better and more effectively, assuages guilt and regret.

Its great to hear Hermosa has turned the corner with foot handling. It gets easier as time goes on. She’ll eventually completely forget the grabby farrier ?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I don’t think you could have done anything different.

If her feet were curling up, that’s a crisis with potential long term consequences on her soundness. You solved that, and it actually doesn’t matter whether it was pretty or perfect. It needed to be done for her welfare, and you did it.

Now you’ve worked through the wider issues of not being great about having them done. Brilliant.

I really don’t think you should second guess yourself here. We could all do things better/ differently in a perfect scenario with perfect conditions. That’s not what you were dealing with and you’ve done the best thing for the horse at the time.

 

[Ratface]

My gelding was great as a foal with feet handling. He was so compliant and i would smile inside at his willingness to give his feet without any resistance at all. He would hilariously hold his back feet out with leg outstretched like some ballet pose! I felt so blessed to have the opportunity to start from scratch with a young baby, and have all these handling issues that can be potentially difficult with horses, trained-in gentle and easily, stress-free, so he could be an easy to handle horse we all love to have. A true blank canvas. Headcollar sessions were equally as easy. He loved people and loved learning what was taught.

He then went to grow-up in a herd at 6 months, and returned to me at 18 months a bolshy teen. Kicking and biting to get you away from him. Handling his feet was as if he had never been handled at all. I know some details of what occurred while he was away, but mis-placed trust on my part meant he essentially didnt receive what was promised. Also a farrier known for smacking horses had handled him.
Judging by the condition of his feet when he returned they looked like they hadnt received any trimming until just before being returned to me.
He would actively try to kick with his rear feet at me for just attempting to hold them to pick them out, and the rasp sent him loopy, kicky and fidgety.
The fronts he would lean down hard to get his foot out of my hand, or his trump-card trick was to completely tilt his body over onto the side i was handling to feign falling on me to freak me out to drop his foot! Never knew of such behaviour!

I had tried to just persevere, ignore his fidgeting, pulling foot away, but the next session would be the same. I soon learnt not to repeat my behaviour and switched tactics. Whenever he gave the foot, and was still, for even a second, i’d put his foot down, pat him ‘good boy’ vocal. Move to another foot, ask, give, stroke, prod for a few seconds, if still, put foot down. He would be still for initial 10 seconds anyway so this was an easy ‘reward’ system to try to re-wire his brain that i wasnt going to hang onto his feet, for minutes, and fight him. (I suspected he received this kind of farrier technique).
I soon managed to instil the notion in his brain, that if he remains still, he gets a relaxed foot experience and his foot put back down. Slowly i extended the time lifting feet.

Any time in subsequent sessions he got bored and wanted his foot back, instead of grabbing hold and fighting i’d have hold gently of tip of rear hoof, and let him waggle it about while calmly saying ‘just a bit more to do boy, chill now’….keeping very calm/joyful vibes within myself. He would then calm, be still, and even if i wasnt finished with the foot, i’d set it down once he was still again. I constantly rewarded him for being still. I would move to another foot, do a bit on that, move to the previous foot, finish a bit more on that. He wasnt patient enough in the first few months to hold any foot up still for more than a minute. And im not a fast trimmer! I trimmed gently and slowly on purpose initially too, than clang the equipment on his hooves, nor rasp hard and fast.
I noted it was any grabbing of his feet firmly, vice-like, to stop him moving, that re-ignited that farrier grabbing ‘memory’ and he’d fight me.

in retrospect, i can see how a horse would see their fetlocks being vice-gripped between thighs as threatening as having a predator wrapping their jaws around their neck. They need their feet to run, they know theyre potentially dead without the ability to move their legs - it’s like that vice-grip triggers a deep innate carnal survival instinct. Especially moreso with feral/young horses, unused to having feet handled.
All it takes is for one session with a farrier fighting to hang onto the feet of a nervous/unhandled/fairly feral horse to imprint into them a fear of having feet handled.

The initial baby months handling of my gelding was erased as it was mainly due to his age, running unhandled for a year+ with a herd, then another person handling him completely differently to how i taught him.

Most farriers deal with compliant horses, and they’re bound to get the odd few fighting them. Unfortunately due to their time limit they mostly succeed by grabbing hold, horse submitting in that moment, and just getting the job done. But they dont realise how with many, that kind of handling as introduction to farriery, sets a deep memory of fear in the young horse.
I dont blame them, its not their job to train our horses - but i wish they knew what longterm effect it has on the horses and owners handling the hooves. It would be better if farriers turned down a fighting horse, knowing it needs gentle introduction to feet handling instead of grab and trim as fast as possible.

There’s no other route you could have known back then to have done better. Her feet were becoming alladin’s and you got a farrier there, with sedative, as many would, to help her.
Her hot blood aspect might also give her that bit more fight, like my gelding with egyptian arab blood. The sharpness is especially pronounced when fight or flight aspects are challenged in the hotbloods I think. My gelding faces-off danger than flights - he’s quite the brave boy…i call him my guard dog!

We can never know how horses will react, and its only after the fact we piece together what aspects were causative, pivotal to creating an ‘issue’. Undoing issues is possible. Re-training is possible. Regrets are only possible when we learn nothing from past events.
I wish i’d done almost everything (in the whole of life!) differently. The degree of relief i feel when i realise i’ve learnt a whole lot of doing things better and more effectively, assuages guilt and regret.

Its great to hear Hermosa has turned the corner with foot handling. It gets easier as time goes on. She’ll eventually completely forget the grabby farrier ?

What a very interesting post, Hermosa. Thank you.

 

[Ratface]

Sorry, ME brain fog strikes again. I meant Purbee. I must have a notebook with me at all times, so that I can record who's post I'm responding to, and it's salient points!

 

[maya2008]

I have bought a fair few 3/4 year olds who have never seen a farrier, and they manage. There’s time to handle the feet before you get someone in, especially if there is plenty of room in their field and they have a chance to break off naturally. Worst case I would sedate for the first visit, then work on the feet before the second. We do that with treats. Treat for each tiny positive step, so it is gradually associated with good things. I used tubes of polos up when training our yearlings to pick their feet up, put them on the stand etc.

My daughter’s pony arrived hating humans, but now trusts us, so we trim her with farrier watching. Being vulnerable with a foot off the floor, controlled by a strange man, is a huge trigger for her - much like strange adults are in general. At the moment my husband trims her, but I used to trim my TB when she was young, so there’s no reason you need to be a man to do it yourself. We just pay the normal fee and follow the farrier’s instructions.

 

[SEL]

My Appy came to me rising 5, weighing around 700kg and heading for a bullet. Kick first ask questions later was her motto. I know about the first 18 months of her life, but **** knows what happened after that to make her so angry with life.

I IV sedated with the vet every 8 weeks or so for her feet. Between I practiced with a glove on a stick etc. Decided there was no way I could expect anyone else to do them unsedated until I could run a rasp over myself

Once I got to that stage I put a request out to see if there was anyone who would just rasp her feet and not use nippers. Plus you could only do the back feet as if you were picking them out.. A lovely barefoot trimmer said she'd give it a go and the horse was brilliant. She did her for about 2 years and we worked up to nippers.

Arthramid in hocks was also a game changer.

Nowadays I stick a likit in front of her and she just let's the farrier get on with it like a normal horse.

Being in foal could well have been an issue. Microcob (sweetest pony around) apparently kicked farriers when she was carrying her BOGOF - unknown at the time - & also when she had foal at foot.

 

[PurBee]

Sorry, ME brain fog strikes again. I meant Purbee. I must have a notebook with me at all times, so that I can record who's post I'm responding to, and it's salient points!

You’re welcome to call me Hermosa if you like RF ?
its such a lovely name, loved it the moment i heard it when CI first shared her on this forum.

 

[Cortez]

If your filly is doing OK with her feet now, you did OK. As for doing it different next time, I don't think you need to worry, every horse is different and any method should be flexible to reflect that. I had exactly the same situation with an extremely wild and defensive mule colt, and he came right in time using pretty much the same methods. My farrier is a very calm and gentle fellow, but he's still extremely respectful of the mule

 

[Caol Ila]

Our new trimmer gave her the foot back before she got too upset. Gave her a break, then resumed. He didn't clamp it between his legs. Experimented with different holds to see which ones she objected to the least.

I tried all the +R stuff, but the problem with that method is that once the horse is in fight/flight mode, they don't really care. Well, this horse didn't, but she is not the most treat-oriented horse in the world anyway. And unfortunately, the moment she saw the farrier, she'd go into that state. Very tricky. Sometimes, you have to reason with her more than bribe. The Highland, alternatively, readily accepts bribes.

I subsequently found that scratching her mane or her dock was a stronger +R than a carrot.

While she was pregnant, I was making very little progress with the foot handling. Getting nowhere, really. Once the foal was on the ground and she got over being a foal-proud maniac, we finally got her to accept us holding her foot.

 

[SEL]

Our new trimmer gave her the foot back before she got too upset. Gave her a break, then resumed. He didn't clamp it between his legs. Experimented with different holds to see which ones she objected to the least.

I tried all the +R stuff, but the problem with that method is that once the horse is in fight/flight mode, they don't really care. Well, this horse didn't, but she is not the most treat-oriented horse in the world anyway. And unfortunately, the moment she saw the farrier, she'd go into that state. Very tricky. Sometimes, you have to reason with her more than bribe. The Highland, alternatively, readily accepts bribes.

I subsequently found that scratching her mane or her dock was a stronger +R than a carrot.

While she was pregnant, I was making very little progress with the foot handling. Getting nowhere, really. Once the foal was on the ground and she got over being a foal-proud maniac, we finally got her to accept us holding her foot.

It's a big ask for a horse to have a foot held really and I wonder if those in foal hormones increased her stress levels too.

There isn't one size fits all when a horse has an issue is there? Clicker training is great for some but you have to rummage through your tool box and try different things. The Appy was hard, hard work but managing her taught me so much.

 

[Melody Grey]

You got the attention required with sedation- that’s a massive win for the welfare of the horse. In the interim you’ve continued to work on things to get out of needing it. Massive praise to you, I think that’s a win, win situation- not your fault the horse was unhandled and you did the best you could
With what you had....I wouldn’t have expected you to
Do anything differently

 

[smolmaus]

You make the best decisions you can at the time, and it doesn't sound like you had many better choices in how you handled things. Hindsight is only valuable in affecting future decisions, not for regretting doing what was best at the time!

My friends gelding is still not past being sedated for the farrier. He also had a similar experience of just being held while he lost his mind and it's obviously genuine trauma, which it might not be for all horses. Some of them are just built different. Friend used R+ to get him to the point he will safely accept being injected to be sedated which is a success I try to focus on when she has doubts similar to yourself. I hope we can do what you did and find him a trimmer willing to be patient with him.

 

[sport horse]

The only thing I would have done different is to get a vet to sedate for the first few times with the farrier. They can adjust the dosage and top up if necessary and Domosedan is not the best drug in that instance. Well done for all being well now