What would you put up with for talent?

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hairymolly

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I have had a few issues with current horse and after posting earlier about whether to sell or not it has got me thinking, if she did not move as nicely as she did I would have sold her on a while ago.
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n The fact that she is very pretty has also helped, well apparently I am a sucker for a flashy horse.
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So what would you/have you put up with in a horse for talent? Is/was it worth it?
 
i guess it depends on what the issue is and whether it affects performance/ enjoyment.... for example i wouldn't hesitate to buy a horse that weaves if it did the job i wanted, same with something that is say grumpy to handle or whatever. my 4 year old is cold backed but is super talented and very trainable so i can cope with that. the grey in my siggy was pretty talented (placed top 3 PN and schooled novice) BUT he was nappy and unpredicatable- this i couldn't cope with as it was frustrating getting eleiminated at the water when you've jumped round a huge XC course or whatever...and then getting a great placing the weekend after. if the good times (be that winning or just enjoying riding) outweigh the bad then i could cope with it- but not if the bad made me not want to ride the horse
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does that makes sense? sorry am waffling today
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what is it that your horse does?
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Tbh it's not necessarily what you will put up with, it's more about what you've got the confidence, ability (both with and without guidance), time and facilities to deal with.

The most talented (but 'quirky') horse in the world will be no good for you and will never achieve it's 'potential' (hate that phrase - sorry) without all of the above.

I'm afraid there's only you, and probably your instructor or someone who knows you well and who you trust, who can sit down and have a honest think about it.
 
it depends on the problem, and how much talent the horse has imo.

i personally dont care if a horse weaves or cribs or windsucks or has a bad temper...as tbh, if they have talent...that is fine by me
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as for ridability, obviously a horse with talent will mostly be fab to ride, but most talented horses are quirky and sharp...and that i dont have a problem with...

BUT if they have problems that affect performance/need HUGE vet bills to maintain...then i might say no. but behavioural issues (not too extreme ones) dont bother me, as long as they dont affect enjoyability
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did that all make sense??
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xxx
 
Depends on whether or not the "putting up" part impacted on the "talent" part. It's no good having a horse that *can* do something at a fantastic level if, for whatever reason, it doesn't and there's no consistently successful way to solve the problem.

I'd also say, with horse that don't progress as expected, there's very often a physical component. Which doesn't mean the horse couldn't do some other job very well - "physical" can be conformational, not necessarily pathological and a problem in one situation might not be a problem for another.

If the issue is management related then it depends on what the rider can REALISTICALLY get done. If the horse needs something expensive or time consuming and the owner can't maintain the level needed then the horse is, technically speaking, not suitable and might do better elsewhere. Same would be true of a horse that needed different riding than the rider could provide.

I've looked after some very difficult, very successful horses BUT they did their jobs. And, oddly, often they weren't particularly difficult when they started, but got more so as the demands of the job increased and the margins for success narrowed. Also, because they were successful, people tried to make their lives as perfect as possible so they became less tolerant.

There seems to be a very pervasive myth that difficult horses are, by definition, talented. People point to a Shutterfly or Tanker's Town or some other horse with an obviously tricky temperament as proof. But those horses are in the minority, big picture, and they are not necessarily difficult in other ways or at least they are with people fully capable of managing their quirks.

I would say that athletic, sensitive, big moving horses are often more work for the average person to ride and manage day to day, simply because of the horse's scope and reactions. Sometimes these horses end up labelled "difficult" when they're really just capable of jumping higher, moving faster, and learning more quickly than the average rider needs or wants.

My own event horse was tricky to manage and came with a reputation. All told, except for a few issues, he was actually quite an easy horse to manage, you just had to do what was right for him, not just what the book said. And he was extremely competitive - none of his quirks impacted on his performance, generally speaking. All that said, I kept him with someone very knowledgeable for a long time and he definitely helped me learn to cope. And I'm grateful to the horse - he taught me a lot about how to treat horses like individuals and got me started on my career path. So, yes, very worth it.
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Now I'm older...not a lot temperament-wise! I like a quiet life & for me there is no fun in having something with the biggest, boldest jump if I'm afraid to hack it.

Can't be bothered with bad to catch, load etc. Life's too short! Don't mind something wilful as I quite like working my way around them, but can't be doing with anything unsafe.

ATM, sound would be a start...
 
I would put up with pretty much anything as long as the horse wants to do it. Don't mind stable vices, can cope with stress heads, napping etc if they have enough talent to warrant working through the issues

I've had 2 incredibly talented horses, who would let you down when under pressure - too heartbreaking

One who competed medium, had hundreds of pounds BSJA, I competed her at Intermediate... she would pull up half way round the cross country and refuse to go any further for reasons known only to herself. She was in the lead after the dressage and show jumping at Chepstow 2DE, jumped clear until fence 22 out of 23 and then pulled up.... end of.
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Her owner put her in foal!

Only you know what you want from your girl and whether with a bit of help from a professional on the ground, you would feel more confident in handling her. Whereabouts are you? Is there anyone around who could help you?

If you could feel more confident and assured with her on the ground, then the riding would come (once you can get back on and work her!) and then you would probably be able to see yourself competing her.....

How old is she? How big is she?
 
Said horse can be rather sharp and I sometimes feel like she is testing me. She can be a right pain as she is not spooky but if she is in the right frame of mind she will use anything as an excuse. Having said that she has never done anything really bad under saddle, she does have a very dirty spin but since i managed to sit two she seems to have given up. She is very clever and you can feel her thinking about everything and she is also very chatty to ride, would not have understood what that meant until I had ridden her!! Although I do sometimes feel hopelessly overhorsed I have only came off her the once, the first time she spun, I do feel that I could get there with the riding.

The main issue I have with her is on the ground, she can be very bargy/bolshy and there is just soo much of her and she has so much power and impulsion and as a 5 foot 3 person with a dodgy arm(her doing) I do struggle sometimes. She has improved loads but lady attitude does sometime reappear!! But she really can move like a star and she really does love showing off, the more people that are looking at her the bigger the trot gets and it really is effortless to her.
 
i would put up with quite a bit, as i know its the only way i would be able to afford a talented horse.
my current horse is quite talented (well for me) but he is very sharp and buzzy. he can also nap. hes not nasty and ive only come off him when its been my fault at a jump or something. hes strong and can be bolshy on the ground.
however, since ive had him he has improved an awful lot on the ground, he will now lead to the field instead of him galloping full speed with you clinging on for dear life. hes a fantastic loader and traveller, where as he wasnt the best before and you can do anything in his stable with him with the door open.
with regards to the riding, i would say its been a good thing hes been quirky, hes taught me masses and has taught me how to ride a difficult horse. i have been in many tears because of him, but its all been worth it, ive learnt to deal with him now and i love him because he is forgiving and isnt spooky. (as well as his talent)
i will say though, he has never really scared me with his sharpness, which i think is the key. if your scared to ride your horse and do anything to put off riding him, then i dont think thats the one for you
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All depends on what you want from your horse and how important those rossettes are?

Everyone is different therefore I think the decision is yours and your alone, mine is lazy, misbehaves, lets me down, naps, bucks etc etc but she is what she is and that's ok with me.

She also happens to be the best looking horse in the world
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i will say though, he has never really scared me with his sharpness, which i think is the key. if your scared to ride your horse and do anything to put off riding him, then i dont think thats the one for you
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The spinning thing scared me and if that became a regular thing she would go. When I am riding her regular she doesnt scare me I do have shaky moments when I think oh my god this horse is so sharp/has so much power what is a numpty like me doing trying to ride her!! I do think that she is better than me and sometimes really worry about ruining her!
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I also worry about being able to cope with her if I take her out of her comfort zone but I suppose that this would improve as I did more with her an we both got more experience together under out belts.
 
QR sorry if I am repeating what others have said!

Basically I find it infuriating that there is this misconception that all talented horses are quirky - it is simply not true, what is true is that the quirky ones who are both talented enough and lucky enough to land up with someone who can a) ride them well and b) pander to their quirks, get kept and nurtured despite their quirkiness, not because of it!

There are lots and lots and lots of talented and easy horses out there who want to do the job. That doesn't mean they will all make it to the top, or that they are anyone's ride. But for every Midnight Dazzler there are ten other horses which are not a complete pain!

I put up with a grumpy miserable horse who is not a pet. He is a pain to hack, and not 100% in traffic. I do this because when you take him to a competition he steps up to the plate and does his job, always better than he does it at home, always without fuss, and I always come home with a smile on my face. As an amateur, and not a very good one at that, that kind of thing is priceless. My horse is talented - if you class a 4* rider telling me he'd go advanced and wondering whether I might sell him as talented. His record doesn't show that, but that is my riding not his ability!
 
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Only you know what you want from your girl and whether with a bit of help from a professional on the ground, you would feel more confident in handling her. Whereabouts are you? Is there anyone around who could help you?

If you could feel more confident and assured with her on the ground, then the riding would come (once you can get back on and work her!) and then you would probably be able to see yourself competing her.....

How old is she? How big is she?

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I think you are right if I felt that I could cope with her on the ground and was not as worried about taking her to a show and did not have a vision of her charging about a show ground with me kidding on she was not mine I would feel more confident riding her as I would be working towards something. I had a good run at things with her during the summer before all the injuries/ailmants set in and she was coming on and her behaviour did improve, maybe she just needs to be in regular work to kep her sane. I am based in the west coast of Scotland just south of Glasgow.
 
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QR sorry if I am repeating what others have said!

Basically I find it infuriating that there is this misconception that all talented horses are quirky - it is simply not true, what is true is that the quirky ones who are both talented enough and lucky enough to land up with someone who can a) ride them well and b) pander to their quirks, get kept and nurtured despite their quirkiness, not because of it!

There are lots and lots and lots of talented and easy horses out there who want to do the job. That doesn't mean they will all make it to the top, or that they are anyone's ride. But for every Midnight Dazzler there are ten other horses which are not a complete pain!

I put up with a grumpy miserable horse who is not a pet. He is a pain to hack, and not 100% in traffic. I do this because when you take him to a competition he steps up to the plate and does his job, always better than he does it at home, always without fuss, and I always come home with a smile on my face. As an amateur, and not a very good one at that, that kind of thing is priceless. My horse is talented - if you class a 4* rider telling me he'd go advanced and wondering whether I might sell him as talented. His record doesn't show that, but that is my riding not his ability!

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You are right not all talented horses are quirky and on the other hand not all plods/hacks (sorry struggled to say that without sounding cheeky but Im sure you know what I mean so please dont take offence) horses are easy. I do feel overhorsed which can cause problems and just because a horse is not anybodies ride does not mean that it is dangeros/nuts some horses are just to sharp/sensitve for some riders.
 
Have just replied to your post in NL.
What you've written above about worrying about ruining your horse and her being too good for you and coping with her when she's out and about is exactly what I've said about my boy.

My RI will be taking him to some of the trickier parties for me (although I have coped with him at shows) as I lack confidence and worry that I wont be able to help him out.

She nurses me through the moments when I worry about not being good enough for him and reassures me that I am and the hard work will be worth it in the end.

Maybe you just need to find an RI/trainer who can do the same for you and also help you with your mare on the ground too?

I think the odd quirk is acceptable but wouldn't have anything that was dangerous. I wouldn't have a rearer, bolter or something that kicked or bit or that was ver difficult to catch, shoe, load or terrible in traffic as it wouldn't be worth the hassle in my view.
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i put up with alot with my 5 year old!! but mainly because she was pretty much unsaleable as a 4 year old so i was stuck with it - was was pretified was the first few months of riding it. and now i wouldnt part with her as we have an agreement now!

shes amazingly brilliant but only in the ring. outside the ring - she freaks in the warm up, rears at least once a day - she went over alot as 3/4 year old but has learnt the art now of not going TOO high, took a year to break, has the spook, spin and run you over once your on the floor down to a T, wont hack for anything so all her work is done on the school and in the field. She has mega seperation anxiety so needs at least 3 left on the yard with her at all times or she kicks her shoes off (expensive hobby), bucks and kicks the walls, jumps over the door etc. (she lives in a padded cell now!!) and if you leave her on the lorry by herself she will trash it - she has bucked and knocked the rug rack down before - how i have no idea!!

but if you only had say, one other horse you just couldnt keep her, as she'd kill herself.

i agree with meardsall millie in that its about what facilites and time you have to cope with them (or not). . depends how many boxes you want them to tick. for me ring performance and her work in the school is all im interested in so it works fine for me.
 
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When I am riding her regular she doesnt scare me I do have shaky moments when I think oh my god this horse is so sharp/has so much power what is a numpty like me doing trying to ride her!! I do think that she is better than me and sometimes really worry about ruining her!
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I also worry about being able to cope with her if I take her out of her comfort zone but I suppose that this would improve as I did more with her an we both got more experience together under out belts.

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you sound like me!! i often wonder wether he would be better off with someone else, and constantly worry about ruining him.
try not to worry, everyone has to learn and the only way to do this is to get more experience! with help from an instructor or friend im sure you will produce her to her full potential!
good luck x
 
This is interesting as I am in a slightly similar position. I have a TB on loan at the moment and have done since July. It started off as a loan with view to buy, but now is just a loan until I find a new horse to buy (TB belongs to someone I know so it's all ok!).
He is a fab jumper, has never even thought about refusing with me- I can literally just point, and can guarantee he will get me to the other side, regardless of whether it's a spooky fence, bigger than I'm used to, or off a bad stride (or even, I'm embarrased to say, on the wrong leg
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). He really is a great jumper and does have that 'fifth leg'.
HOWEVER. He also naps pretty badly out hacking (alone and in company) generally accompanied by rearing, bites in the stable and can be a b*gger to load and travel, and is very weird about things on the ground- hoses, puddles, changes in ground (eg all weather take offs on XC jumps, often resulting in us taking of a good two strides earlier than planned
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I just decided it wasn't worth his 'quirks'- however much confidence and enjoyment he gives me when show jumping, I didn't feel I could cope with all the other stuff.
 
a complete b1t*h of a horse who bites at any oppurtunity, is nifty with her back end and likes to dump you on the floor... 12 years and we still have her LOL. most amazing polo pony we have ever had, goes from playing high goal one day to farm chukkas the next, has won every best playing polo pony going. i think also when we first got her (shes 18 now) she had the most perfect confirmation you could get in a horse... she has her faults, yes but my god does she make up for it on the polo field!
my eventer has amazing scope and is such a quick learner... but he has a dirty stop and worries a lot (was rapped when he was a baby) about distances etc. he has got me off a few times as he tends to charge at the fence thenf reeze and just slam on the brakes last minute... but when he goes well, he is insane. so quick, so nimble and just generally awesome
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really does depend on the problem you need to put up with, 2 years ago i had to sell my very talented wb, who would jump fox hunter, intermediate be consitent weekend after weekend, and moved like a dream, but couldnt enter the stable without being bitten or kicked, couldnt catch her and couldnt hack, all i could do was school, no enjoyment at all, if you can still enjoy the horse its worth keeping the talent if you have no enjoyment, maybe theres someone else out there who can "gel" with the horse
 
Well, my very talented 7-year old gelding is about to be retired due to medical/psychological issues we are looking unable to resolve... We also have Maggie, who is very averagely talented (though she has a v big jump) - she has SJ'd to 1.30 m, and has in only 5 months of dressage, qualified for BD regionals - there is nothing flashy about her, and despite her enormous size, she always listens to her two tiny riders, is so easy to deal with in every way, and just has the most trainable temperament. She has enough to jump 1.20 classes and do medium dressage with us, and we don't need any more - she is the most enjoyable horse I have ever dealt with! I think a lot of amateurs are overhorsed with talented but quirky horses, that they don't necessarily need talentwise, and they can't enjoy.
 
you have to ask yourself, do you enjoy the horse?
if not, theres your answer.

i have had some of the most quirky, awkward, sharp and neurotic of horses but im fairly laid back (horizontal at times!) and i have to say ive loved having them all!

however, dangerous, i just wouldnt do. some things can be managed. some things cannot. doesnt matter how talented, its just not worth a human life. however saying that, i have met very few bad horses. some horses dont suit some environments, some just dont suit their owners. most can be sorted with the right treatment!
 
IMO talent means nothing without a good temperament and generally most horses with a good temp don't have much I'd need to "put up with". The last horse I sold had masses of presence which made him pretty successful for showing, along with his presence I had to accept him throwing in a buck here and there when warming up etc. That sort of thing doesn't bother me at all.
 
i put up with sweet itch, stallion type behaviour ,short tempered very grumpy ,kicks when threatened and bites ( i know I've the scars to prove it !)

and in return i get
a horse that is sometimes loving (yes honestly !!) totally trust-able on the roads to the point where im asked to nanny the youngsters.
jumps well ( if he wants to) does a reasonable dressage test ( when he want to) loads every time into anything. and generally keeps me entertained.

wouldn't have it any other way ( OK id change just a few things)
 
I think if I'd bought Ladina B as a youngster and encountered a display like Ellen Whitaker puts up with regularly I'd probably have either PTS or given her away!
 
I had a horse that was the sweetest thing in the world to handle, however to ride he had days when he was lovely and days when i wanted to get off and cry - on a good day he was working towards Adv Med/PSG as a 7yo, on a bad day he was working at prelim level and wouldnt even trot round the areana. There was nothing wrong with him, he had absolutly everything checked at least once a month and cost me a fortune in vets bills/physio/saddlers etc all for no reason as nothing was ever found to be wrong with him. He'd have total mental fits for no reason at all, he'd rear, nap, bronk everything. I ended up selling him in April this year and gave up riding as he put me off, i have started riding once a week on my YOs horse but only for the last 6weeks. Ive found it hard to relax properly on a horse since but my YOs horse his helping me as hes a little saint - im not a novice rider, have ridden since i was 3years old and trained with Andrew Gould/Emile Faurie, its just i went through so much with this horse that in the end if was too much.
 
I have to say, I do believe there are "not quite right" horses (supported by the experience of knowing a mare who produce 3 very bonkers foals), just like there are not quite right people, but I really do think a lot of the time there IS a physical reason, it's just not one we're able to find. I don't know how many horses I've kept track of over the years that "sort of" came right or were manageable but turned out to have underlying issues, some manageable, some not, that eventually caught up with them. (Liver damage; kidney disease; a broken, improperly healed rib; various arthritic changes; a brain tumour; feed intolerance . . .) I've also met horse that have had such traumatic experiences (not necessarily abuse and not necessarily something people would consider that traumatic) early in their lives/education that they were never able to function optimally and reliably again. Rare but it does happen. More often enough improvement can be made that the horse can give a percentage of what it's capable of, although that depends on what it has to give in the first place!

The difference is, with talented horses people keep going and because the horse is capable of a "10" the "7" it can produce, even compromised, looks like promise. If another horse is capable of producing a "7" on a great day but only consistently produces a "4" people give up and/or send the horse to a less stressful job it can do. But that doesn't mean the first horse is experiencing less pain and distress than the second. Also, like people, horses have different tolerance levels and means of expression. Some people get quiet when they hurt, some people scream. Reaction level is not necessarily indicative of pain level.

All of which is moot, really. If you can't find the problem then you can't solve it. I am perhaps the worst "saver" I know and, to be fair, have had quite a bit of professional success with it. But even I've had to learn to acknowledge that not every situation can be solved, at least not at the level or in the way we'd like it to be. And it's never worth getting seriously hurt because that certainly isn't going to solve the problem.
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I love "quirky" horses, both as individuals and as an intellectual exercise. BUT I think people do have to think about their own needs, not just the horses. Owning a horse you *think* Carl Hester or Ian Stark could ride doesn't do you much good if you want to hack down the road with your friends or put your kid on it. Horses for courses.
 
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