What your opinion on the breeding crisis in the UK

[RoxyNewstead221]

I’m currently studying equitation Training and behaviour at duchy college.
I am researching over Breeding in the UK and how Breeding has become unstoppable and horses welfare has been put on the line due to many horses being born with conformational faults or In to a home which are unable to look after them.
Would it be possible to have your views and opinions on this subject and how this has affected the horse as a whole?

 

[Kallibear]

Start eating horse meat in this country. Make sure the welfare and transport standards are the same high level as cows, pigs and sheep.

If the horse can be sold for meat, it gives the animal value. Things with value are looked after better. And it would give an outlet for all the lower end over bred horses with nowhere to go.

There is a reason why cow/pig/sheep abandonment and neglect are very rare compared to horses.

And if they were potential meat animals then DEFRA would have to get off their ass and sort out the ridiculous mess that is the Horse Passport System.

 

[RoxyNewstead221]

Thank you for your opinion this seems to be a missed subjected in the Uk

 

[s4sugar]

Start eating horse meat in this country. Make sure the welfare and transport standards are the same high level as cows, pigs and sheep.

If the horse can be sold for meat, it gives the animal value. Things with value are looked after better. And it would give an outlet for all the lower end over bred horses with nowhere to go.

There is a reason why cow/pig/sheep abandonment and neglect are very rare compared to horses.

And if they were potential meat animals then DEFRA would have to get off their ass and sort out the ridiculous mess that is the Horse Passport System.

Well said.

 

[popsdosh]

Totally agree!!!!

 

[popsdosh]

Just one quick note to the OP ,I personally get rather bored at this time of year by the number of students who expect contributors to these forums to write their dissertations for them. Surely the idea is to get off your backside and do your own research,I am sure you would learn more by it!

 

[HBM1]

Just one quick note to the OP ,I personally get rather bored at this time of year by the number of students who expect contributors to these forums to write their dissertations for them. Surely the idea is to get off your backside and do your own research,I am sure you would learn more by it!

What is the difference between going to the library and looking at several books, going to a breed show and asking several breeders, and asking on here? I am sure no student uses HHO to do their whole dissertation. Even with the thoughts given on here, the student still has to write it. I don't think they would accept a cut and paste from HHO as a final copy.

I also do not think introducing horse meat is the answer to this problem. After all, the same people who breed willy nilly and don't care, will still do so,just for the food market. It does not at all mean they would look after their horses any better.

 

[Kallibear]

I also do not think introducing horse meat is the answer to this problem. After all, the same people who breed willy nilly and don't care, will still do so,just for the food market. It does not at all mean they would look after their horses any better.

No, they won't be able to. The restrictions, rules and regulations for cattle and sheep means they have to be looked after properly (and not least have a suitable passport). They are completely traceable and the owners accountable. If horses were given the same protection that would do them the world of good.

 

[HBM1]

I see what you mean, I for one could never eat it, I think it would be a sad day if it were to happen in this country. I just wish those who breed without any thought as to their welfare, wouldn't.

 

[Kallibear]

I see what you mean, I for one could never eat it, I think it would be a sad day if it were to happen in this country. I just wish those who breed without any thought as to their welfare, wouldn't.

Why do you think it'd be a sad day for horses if we started eating them? I have said it'd help welfare over all. Ginger the much loved Pony Club pony isn't going to be eaten but the thousands amd thousands of neglected and abandoned overbred cobs would a) be traceable and the owners accountable and b) have a quick and humane end.

I totally agree that them not being bred in the first place would be far better but sadly there are plenty of greedy, callous and plain stupid people about who've easily got their paws on a mare and stallion. Making that far far harder to achieve would be a good start. That's what the passport was MEANT to be for but it's just been a total joke. It needs to be properly run, like cattle and sheep passports but I suspect the only way to ge DEFRA to do it properly is to make horses meat animals too.

 

[Maesfen]

Why do you think it'd be a sad day for horses if we started eating them? I have said it'd help welfare over all. Ginger the much loved Pony Club pony isn't going to be eaten but the thousands amd thousands of neglected and abandoned overbred cobs would a) be traceable and the owners accountable and b) have a quick and humane end.

I totally agree that them not being bred in the first place would be far better but sadly there are plenty of greedy, callous and plain stupid people about who've easily got their paws on a mare and stallion. Making that far far harder to achieve would be a good start. That's what the passport was MEANT to be for but it's just been a total joke. It needs to be properly run, like cattle and sheep passports but I suspect the only way to ge DEFRA to do it properly is to make horses meat animals too.

Couldn't agree more. After all, people will have the choice whether to eat it or not (not for me I'm afraid) but there will be no choice for any owner of horses, whichever colour or creed they are, everything will have to be registered and passported right from birth like calves, sheep and pigs. Those that aren't there should be the right to confiscate and slaughter them without compensation. The only thing these people that overbreed understand is when it hits their pocket, nothing short of a cull will do anything to alleviate this situation and it would stop a hell of a lot of suffering in the mean time.

 

[Rollin]

Start eating horse meat in this country. Make sure the welfare and transport standards are the same high level as cows, pigs and sheep.

If the horse can be sold for meat, it gives the animal value. Things with value are looked after better. And it would give an outlet for all the lower end over bred horses with nowhere to go.

There is a reason why cow/pig/sheep abandonment and neglect are very rare compared to horses.

And if they were potential meat animals then DEFRA would have to get off their ass and sort out the ridiculous mess that is the Horse Passport System.

The French eat horse meat, though far less than most Brits imagine. The horsemeat on sale in my local supermarkets is from Mexico, which has the most appalling welfare standards. My local Cheval butcher buys his horse meat from Canada.

How would eating horses help?

The latest in the horsemeat scandal, here in France, is horses used for drug testing and vaccine production which are now in the human food chain.

The problem for those of breeding rare breeds is that we actually need to breed MORE not less but I only breed one or two foals a year of top quality of course!!

There are about 500 pure bred Cleveland bays in the world. In 2012 just 20 pure bred foals - worldwide!!

There are about 2,500 Shagya in the world. In the days when the Imperial Stud at Babolna, Hungary bred Shagya's for the cavalry mounts they bred 3,000 a year.

 

[Kallibear]

The French eat horse meat, though far less than most Brits imagine. The horsemeat on sale in my local supermarkets is from Mexico, which has the most appalling welfare standards. My local Cheval butcher buys his horse meat from Canada.

How would eating horses help?

The latest in the horsemeat scandal, here in France, is horses used for drug testing and vaccine production which are now in the human food chain.

The problem for those of breeding rare breeds is that we actually need to breed MORE not less but I only breed one or two foals a year of top quality of course!!

There are about 500 pure bred Cleveland bays in the world. In 2012 just 20 pure bred foals - worldwide!!

There are about 2,500 Shagya in the world. In the days when the Imperial Stud at Babolna, Hungary bred Shagya's for the cavalry mounts they bred 3,000 a year.

Because we are not France or the rest of Europe and our welfare standards and regulations are far higher. That's why Britiah meat is so expensive by comparison! It costs money to have high welfare standards. But many, like myself, are willing to pay the extra for high-welfare meat. It's why I currently wouldn't eat horse meat., because the poor welfare of the countries it's currently coming from. We can't stop imported horse meat coming into the country but that wouldn't affect our own meat horses anyways.

We have no shortage of horses in this country, quite the opposite. But the higher level well bred horses are alsi suffering because why would the average horse owner spend £3000 on a well bred foal when they can pick up an OK one from market for £30.

 

[HBM1]

Because we are not France or the rest of Europe and our welfare standards and regulations are far higher. .

I think the rather hideous hidden video footage of horse slaughter taken at the abbatoir last year would beg to differ with that statement.

not to mention the ones of pigs being tortured before slaughter. I'm afraid until all of that stops, we cannot hold our heads up higher than any other country.

 

[Rollin]

Kallibear

How would you insure that the horse meat eaten was British and therefore subject to higher welfare standards, as opposed to imported from Mexico or Canada? Cost of food is a real problem for British families.

I hate to say this but I would suggest that the majority of UK housewives know far less about the origin of their meat than the very fussy French housewife. I live between three villages, which between them support four bakers, three butchers and two specialist pork butchers. I buy very little meat from a supermarket and every local butcher displays a notice with the name of the farm and breed of meat sold.

Horse Breeding in France is controlled by the National Stud. Unlike the UK I can only stand a stallion if he has been both swabbed for CEM and vaccinated at the beginning of each breeding season. All blood and swab results are fed back to the National Equine Database in France. If there is any viral outbreak anywhere in France I am notified by email.

I think that there are some very high standards in Continental Europe. The film of one horse abattoir in the UK would suggest that actually standards are not upheld.

 

[kittywilkinson]

I think breeding needs to be regulated quite strongly in the UK. There needs to be some system in place where stallions are mares are limited to how many foals they can make in a year/breeding programme. Possibly with owners limited to numbers that they can breed. Not sure how this would be policed, or put in place. But I think this would work as an idea to work on by the authorities necessary.

Also, as to eating horse meat, the main thing I can think of is that cutural attitudes are hard to change and you would have better chance exporting it. The laws around livestock do mean that they are looked after better (in general) so in theory horses would have better standards, but I don't see how this would control breeding.

 

[RoxyNewstead221]

Do we feel that each breed should have a assocaion and the 'other' e.g dartmoor, bodmin moor ponies, exmoor?
Also, Do people feel that anyone owner stallions for breeding purposes should have breeding licenses?
Increasing the welfare of the horse and ponies in the UK should be revisted by the goverment as this is a subject which has been left aside and needs to be looked at from the horses point of view

 

[popsdosh]

I think breeding needs to be regulated quite strongly in the UK. There needs to be some system in place where stallions are mares are limited to how many foals they can make in a year/breeding programme. Possibly with owners limited to numbers that they can breed. Not sure how this would be policed, or put in place. But I think this would work as an idea to work on by the authorities necessary.

Also, as to eating horse meat, the main thing I can think of is that cutural attitudes are hard to change and you would have better chance exporting it. The laws around livestock do mean that they are looked after better (in general) so in theory horses would have better standards, but I don't see how this would control breeding.

What gives anybody the right to say you cannot breed from a mare !!! The only control realistically is economics! I as much as anybody do not believe in breeding from unsuitable mares however I defend anybodies right to do so if they wish(it could never be put into law as it would be a restriction of trade) next thing you will be licencing humans to breed,I think somebody had that idea 70yrs ago!!!

 

[emmah]

What gives anybody the right to say you cannot breed from a mare !!! The only control realistically is economics! I as much as anybody do not believe in breeding from unsuitable mares however I defend anybodies right to do so if they wish(it could never be put into law as it would be a restriction of trade) next thing you will be licencing humans to breed,I think somebody had that idea 70yrs ago!!!

I agree completely with this!!! I'm sick of reading posts that seem to bash anybody breeding a foal!! I have a dodgy leg and back and an ugly boyfriend does that mean I cannot have a baby

 

[Lgd]

Sadly, the educated breeder will breed responsibly and many, like myself, are reducing or not breeding at present. I do have a young stallion, he will be put forward for grading when he is ready and proven under saddle. If he is not up to the job or does not grade he will be gelded.

The one phrase or variation on it guaranteed to make me want to scream is 'Oh, she has gone lame/is too crazy to ride, so i'm putting her in foal to xxx's ungraded stallion up the road'. Those are the people who need educating.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

I'm sick of reading posts that seem to bash anybody breeding a foal!!

Me too. Also getting tired of the bashing in British Horse mag. Yes, there is a breeding crisis in the UK but I hardly think those of us who pay our BHS membership fees are the cause of it!!

I have a dodgy leg and back and an ugly boyfriend does that mean I cannot have a baby

How very dare you for even considering such a thing!

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Do we feel that each breed should have a assocaion and the 'other' e.g dartmoor, bodmin moor ponies, exmoor?

Do you mean breed societies? We already have them.

Increasing the welfare of the horse and ponies in the UK should be revisted by the goverment as this is a subject which has been left aside and needs to be looked at from the horses point of view

Nope. That would doubtless lead to taxation in one form or another for us horse owners. Which only responsible horse owners (who have not contributed to the current crisis) would pay.

 

[HBM1]

Do we feel that each breed should have a assocaion and the 'other' e.g dartmoor, bodmin moor ponies, exmoor?
Also, Do people feel that anyone owner stallions for breeding purposes should have breeding licenses?
Increasing the welfare of the horse and ponies in the UK should be revisted by the goverment as this is a subject which has been left aside and needs to be looked at from the horses point of view

Firstly to Kitty Wilkinson, some studbooks (not sure if all) already limit the number stallions can cover, eg if with Breeders Elite or AES if a stallion is Graded as "registered" they can have up to 10 foals per year of the owner's own mares - if licensed, it is 30 foals a year for the AES, again not sure re Breeders Elite. those who run stallions willy nilly are not going to bother getting licenced at all.

Secondly re the above RoxyNewstead221, I am new to stallion ownership, my first homebred is now 4 and going through the process of seeing if he will grade. I have already paid to raise him, now paying to have him professionally backed and produced. He will need a five stage vetting, x-rays, fees to have him graded and registered with the studbook (just registering with the studbook alone is £450). Plus all breeding swabs etc as well as his competition entry fees etc - the majority of responsible stallion owners will also do this - why should we then have to get a licence too, which will invariably cost even more money and not make our keeping of stallions any better than all the things previously listed. Again, irresponsible stallion owners will not bother getting a licence - same as for dogs, a licence does not make for a responsible dog owner, those who are though, will buy one, those who aren't won't.

 

[RosieWiggin]

I think that this is a very interesting topic. Perhaps breeding should be more indiscriminate and carefully controlled for quality not quantity. An idea I am researching is the commercial and financial viability of adopting European methods of station and field tests, along with shorter evaluations in order to approve horses for breeding in a UK Performance testing centre. It would be used as a central hub for all Sport Horse Studbooks, creating a vast database for results linked with bloodlines and progeny success. It could also be used as a British Bred Auction House and an international competition centre. Link to survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/T2YP6R5 share your opinions!

 

[JanetGeorge]

What everyone has missed is that a large part of the problem RESPONSIBLE breeders are facing is the large numbers of cheap horses imported into the UK. We get them by the bucketful from Ireland - and also from Europe - many sneaking in thanks to the Tripartite agreement with NO health checks because they have been bought from French fattening farms. They are then sold here by dealers for somewhere between £900 and 2000 - they look cheap - and buyers think they can get away with making derisory offers for decently bred and raised horses from breeders in the UK. Of course, many of the buyers will suffer from buying these cheap horses (many of whom WERE headed for slaughter) but will they come to their senses and buy a DECENT horse - or just give up!

And before anyone says: "Oh, they're tightening up the Tripartite agreement" - I assure you it will do very little to help as they're ONLY tightening up on horses from France - not from Ireland - so a lot of them will STILL come here - just via Ireland! And they haven't mentioned how much money they're going to spend on enforcement (not much, I'll bet) so changing the rules will have little or no effect on our dodgier horse dealers!

 

[Spook]

Urmmm, I hardly dare say this but...... we should be eating horses here in Britain, actually we have always done so either knowingly or otherwise.

The habit of the caring breeder keeping every foal bred because we just love it to bits is a recent thing (just in case you wonder this is tongue in cheek!) We assume the vet can cure all ills etc. and they cannot, no matter what they tell you.

The horse population in the UK needs to halve..... half of the equines here are not fit for purpose for many reasons. No I don't object to the "old faithfuls" being retired in luxury nor ponies being kept in palaces as pets..... but in reality this is not the case generally.

And having eaten horse......it is delicious when cooked properly.

There is a crisis which could so easily be solved, there is a world shortage of meat....

 

[Spook]

Blimey have I killed this thread dead?

 

[Rollin]

Blimey have I killed this thread dead?

So it would seem. Bin 'ere on another thread! French people eat horse meat, in very small quantities. In my supermarkets probably no more than 6 packs of horse meat on the heaving shelves of pork, beef, lamb and poultry.

Where does it come from? Mexico!!!

I don't think it is a goer. Unless of course it is hidden in cheap microwave meals. If that is what you choose to eat unlikely you will care anyway.

I am a bit of a foodie - which means lots of non-meat meals. I am not a vegetarian.

 

[shirleyno2]

I totally agree with Janet George, re cheap foreign imports. The old saying of you get what you pay for is true. I buy horses from the continent, for every one I buy, there is probably 3 or 4 that I have had vetted and they have failed the vetting. I then see this horse in the UK being advertised for 2950.
Re eating horse, for all the ones that are bred with bad conformation/attitude that makes them unsuitable for riding, yes I think its a better end for them than getting hauled round all the different nasty sales rings.

 

[sywell]

The French eat horse meat, though far less than most Brits imagine. The horsemeat on sale in my local supermarkets is from Mexico, which has the most appalling welfare standards. My local Cheval butcher buys his horse meat from Canada.

How would eating horses help?

The latest in the horsemeat scandal, here in France, is horses used for drug testing and vaccine production which are now in the human food chain.

The problem for those of breeding rare breeds is that we actually need to breed MORE not less but I only breed one or two foals a year of top quality of course!!

There are about 500 pure bred Cleveland bays in the world. In 2012 just 20 pure bred foals - worldwide!!

There are about 2,500 Shagya in the world. In the days when the Imperial Stud at Babolna, Hungary bred Shagya's for the cavalry mounts they bred 3,000 a year.

The horsemeat comes from Mexico and Canada because the USA passed legislation that closed horsemeat slaughter houses for horses for human consumption.