What your opinion on the breeding crisis in the UK

[sywell]

I have a letter from Lord de Mauley at DEFRA and he clearly does not understand the differance between registered horses and an ID only horses as he has classified horses on the NTR register as registered horses for the TPA

 

[angrovestud]

NTR horses can race under rules and breed racehorses and race & breed abroad.
ID passport only can neither race or be used for breeding unless re registered in the NTR as unknown breeding.

 

[sywell]

There are 300 TB on the NTR but there are large numbers where the dam pedigree is unknown and they should not come under the TPA as they cannot fill in he Annex to the passport which is a requirement for registered horses

 

[olop]

Surely if this country allows horses to be used for meat it will increase the amount of horse's in this country??
Your gonna get people breeding horses for meat and then the same problems with all the gypsy cobs everywhere, or am I just being a bit thick??!!

I think the only way of controlling the horse population in this country is to regulate breeding so you can't just breed anything and everything and cull horses that are clearly not microchipped and or fly-grazed (there are far worst fates for these horse's IMO)

 

[Rollin]

The horsemeat comes from Mexico and Canada because the USA passed legislation that closed horsemeat slaughter houses for horses for human consumption.

I don't quite understand? France, Italy and Spain have slaughter houses for horses for human consumption.

Why do the French eat Mexican horsemeat?

How would a campaign to persuade Brits to eat horse make any difference to the irresponsible breeder?

 

[angrovestud]

There are 300 TB on the NTR but there are large numbers where the dam pedigree is unknown and they should not come under the TPA as they cannot fill in he Annex to the passport which is a requirement for registered horses

but all horses that are on the NTR and V11 can not race but there progeny can race, what do you mean fill in the Annex? my own horses were V11 and now we are at GB status the two original horses were of known parentage outside of Weatherbys and documented, but Weatherbys say unknown if the parents of the V11 horses are not also registered as breeding stock with Weatherbys

 

[Bedlam]

You can't just eat any old horse. Eating horse meat won't actually solve the over breeding issue. In countries that eat horse meat the horses are farmed in exactly the same way as cattle, sheep and pigs are farmed here. There are specific breeds of horses that are good to eat and those are the ones that are farmed - we don't tend to eat Jersey cows for example - they are good for high fat milk not meat. So if we as a nation started to eat horse meat then there would be farms for horse meat horses - probably Belgian heavyweight breeds I'm guessing. It wouldn't be a good way to get rid of cheap, poorly bred ponies.

 

[RoxyNewstead221]

You can't just eat any old horse. Eating horse meat won't actually solve the over breeding issue. In countries that eat horse meat the horses are farmed in exactly the same way as cattle, sheep and pigs are farmed here. There are specific breeds of horses that are good to eat and those are the ones that are farmed - we don't tend to eat Jersey cows for example - they are good for high fat milk not meat. So if we as a nation started to eat horse meat then there would be farms for horse meat horses - probably Belgian heavyweight breeds I'm guessing. It wouldn't be a good way to get rid of cheap, poorly bred ponies.

Thank you for your input, This is a subject which has been left in the dark and which needs to be brought to life. this forum was started to get opinions which can be used to show how much is being missed.

I feel that if horses was brought forward for the use of horse meat would help to improve the welfare of the horses as they would have a value to people breeding them and this could help reduce the welfare cases.
The breeds of horses would be the bigger, stocky types and this would help to reduce horses/ponies on the moors and help to reduce the number of horses/ponies being dumped or neglected.

Thanks

 

[AengusOg]

I think there are at least two issues emerging here.

There will always be meat men to buy unwanted horses in times when the markets are depressed through over-productuion of poorly-bred individuals. As long as too many horses are bred for a limited market, the prices will remain low and horses will be virtually worthless. The meat men are only buying what no-one else wants.

The present crisis evolved because there were mares in foal all over the country, and lots of unsold 1,2,3yr olds as well, at the time of the financial crash. Many people failed to realise how long the economy would take to recover, and continued to put their mares in foal in the hope that prices would rise to near former levels. This didn't happen, but foals were produced in the same sort of numbers for at least two seasons more than common sense dictated. The present crisis in welfare and the amount of unwanted horses in the country are direct results of the above.

As long as the price of horses is low, there is a chance that fewer will be bred.

The other factor is the possible production of horses specifically for the meat market. I agree that this, if it became established, would have little bearing on the present type of crisis because, once all the meat men have done their buying, there still has to be a huge reduction in the production of non-specific meat animals.

There is a tendency for breeders to respond to a rise in an animal's worth by selling that animal and breeding more. The fewer horses there are for sale, the greater the cost of those available, so reliance on breeders to self-police is a false hope.

The establishment of a horse meat production industry in Britain may be the answer in that it should require accountability, welfare standards, and sound practice. It should also rely on the establishment of proper slaughter facilities in this country and should bring about the cessation of live haulage of horses to Europe for slaughter. Animals destined for human consumption would have to be farmed, killed close to their point of production, and exported chilled or frozen.

That, though, would incur costs, such as housing, feed, veterinary attention, and haulage, making horse meat a more expensive commodity than it is at the moment. Would consumers be prepared to pay more for meat from an animal which had been reared, fed, and slaughtered with accountability? I suspect not. However, accountability and transparency in production and slaughter, if they were the only criteria by which horses were allowed into the food chain, as occurs in farming of other species for human consumption, would be the means by which over-breeding could be diminished or eliminated, as there would be no meat men. The meat men would have no outlet, so they would cease to buy.

The pet food trade may be the only outlet left for buyers of non-farmed horse meat. Clarity on that score may put off a few breeders.

However, the current crisis has to be resolved, and that demands a huge amount of effort and joined-up thinking by welfare charities, veterinary practices, legislators, and Defra. The only way to put the brakes on indescriminate breeding is to limit the routes by which horses enter the food chain, and that requires strict codes of conduct and welfare.

I don't know if the government and its agencies have the bottle or the brains to solve the present crisis and prevent it happening again.

 

[firm]

"Over £4 million-worth of horse meat was exported in 2012, up on just under £1.9m-worth in 2008.

And the volume of horse meat exported in tonnes more than doubled between 2008 and 2012, from 999 tonnes in 2008 to 2,233 tonnes in 2012".

Despite the figures above horse welfare/over breeding has not improved so why do people believe eating more horse meat will improve this?

Janet George made a very good point, you don't see reams of UK bred horses selling in Holland or Belgium or Germany for £2k but the UK has loads of imports selling for those figures. Why does it happen? Is it because the UK horse buying public think only on price compared with for example the Germans? I cant imagine a German horse buyer going around boasting they had picked up a UK bred sporthorse for £1.5k and what a bargain it was? They would think they had been sold a dodgy horse!
It just seem crazy as the UK already have the market of cheap ex racing TBs which they do not have abroad and to add to that we import the surplus suspiciously cheap horses from abroad leaving not much room for the UK bred quality horse.

 

[s4sugar]

Just saw this advert on Facebook and to me it sums up why we have such a problem -
"I have two TB x! One filly and one colt half brother and sister ! Do not let the colt put you off as he has the kindest nature,
Is out running with my mares. He isn't coltish in the slightest . He is not bolshy or anything. They are both rising 3 in November, they were late foals. To both make 15.2ish colt possibly bigger. They are use to dogs traffic heavy machinery and kids.
They will both make fantastic projects once turnt 3. I have started bitting them ready to be broken in November. Unfortunately I do not know what they are crossed with as I rescued them to give them a better start in life then to find them a forever home. I have had them since 6months old and they have truly been a real
Pleasure to do. Sensible offers only. "

 

[Kaylum]

Oh all those wanting to eat horse meat and any other meat for that matter there is a nice video that was done by whw that's available when they went under cover in a slaughter house. Will put you off meat for life.

As for over breeding everyone wants a bargain. Stallions are covering for £20 and some stallion owners don't give a monkeys what mare comes to visit they just want money. It starts there.

 

[hackneylass2]

Horses are being killed for meat here already and I don't see brilliant welfare standards. Are horses officially classed as meat animals here or not? I did ask DEFRA but have had no reply. If they are not, who does the ante and post mortem tests in UK abattoirs?

As for Continentals eating horses farmed and with decent welfare standards, that seems like bollards to me, most of the horses are killed in Mexico, shipped in from the USA, killed inhumanely and are sourced from auctions. Old, injured, possibly diseased - who knows? That's what the French are mostly eating.

I watched a programme last year about some people eating various 'taboo' animals, In France, it was shown that horses raised in idlyllic pastures went for meat. The horses supposedly were young and raised like cattle. The actual horse they ate was shown being led to the abattoir... to any vaguely horsey person the animal looked old, it also wore shoes and led very well in a halter. This was no virtually unhandled youngster, coming to the end of its short but free range life! Apparently the people eating the unfortunate animal said the meat was mushy textured and sweet, sweet in not a very nice way.

 

[Kaylum]

The point people miss about killing animals for meat is they might be well looked after when they are alive but after that on the way to be killed and just before they are killed is totally horrific and it seems to be put out of people's minds like its acceptable. If they have a good life when they are alive what does a day of horrific treatment matter if they are going to die anyway? Think of the whole process not just the fluffy side of it. Watch out if your horse is sent to auction it could end up in a slaughter house not knowing where it is, being blooded whilst still awake etc etc. seeing others being killed. It's last moments should be as happy as its first ones.

 

[Rollin]

The point people miss about killing animals for meat is they might be well looked after when they are alive but after that on the way to be killed and just before they are killed is totally horrific and it seems to be put out of people's minds like its acceptable. If they have a good life when they are alive what does a day of horrific treatment matter if they are going to die anyway? Think of the whole process not just the fluffy side of it. Watch out if your horse is sent to auction it could end up in a slaughter house not knowing where it is, being blooded whilst still awake etc etc. seeing others being killed. It's last moments should be as happy as its first ones.

I am in total agreement with you. The American Humane Society have collected some stomach churning video footage. Horses will fight to live until their last breath. We all know how intelligent they are and how they tune into our emotions. How can such a successful prey animal not hear and smell what is ahead of them in the chute?

 

[BigBuck's]

To make any sort of difference, there needs to be an overhaul of the passport legislation. Ideally there would be one centralised PIO which would work in harmony with breed societies. Certainly no more of this ridiculous situation where auction houses can be PIOs. There then needs to be actual passport checks and meaningful sanctions with teeth for transgressions of passport legislation.

In addition, a joined-up approach to retraining and rehoming retired racehorses. This is one of the single biggest sectors of overproduction and by definition only a minority can be any good. At the moment we rely on a variety of individual, fragmented organisations - almost all charities - each with their own agendas and priorities. If we could get something centralised, which trainers could contact when horses were about to come out of training, we could get some consistency of standards in retraining which would give these horses a higher value as they start their second careers.

These wouldn't be magic wands, but they'd be steps in the right direction.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

These wouldn't be magic wands, but they'd be steps in the right direction.

I agree with you. There are no magic wands and only a reassessment of ALL our working practices will prove to be of any use, or allow for a forward movement.

I would be a little surprised to find that the re-homing of Racehorses, would actually work. In the main, and given their previous learning curve, there will be such a high failure rate that it simply wouldn't be a viable proposition. I'd very much like to be proven wrong on this point! My experience of horses out of training is that they "can" be an absolute nightmare, and rarely are they for anyone but the most experienced, sadly.

To add to the list of corrective changes that could be made, I'd suggest that we start at the very end, and that we give a horse, at the end of its use or life, a value. For a horse to have an end value, then we need to work towards a proper and ethical slaughter regime where horses are processed correctly and humanely. If horses have an end value, then instead of being a liability, they will be viewed as assets and those who currently neglect their charges will be encouraged to protect that asset, rather than leaving them to wilt and die.

I've opened negotiations with the bulk of the equine charities, and not one will support my thoughts, which I find rather disappointing, though considering the political stances that the bulk of those charities will take, hardly surprising. I rather wish that they weren't quite so spineless, though again, they have their charitable donations to consider, don't they?

I've given serious thought to opening up a dedicated Equine Abattoir, employing full time and competent staff, but without the support of our Equine Charities, the bulk of which should be ashamed of their apathy, so there seems little point. I even had a mothballed site in mind. Hey-ho!!

I'm rather at the end of my thinking process on the question of horse welfare, and the problem of over production, because those who have the power to change things, wont.

Alec.