samual
Well-Known Member
Riding my cob in dutch gag on bottom hole but have to really fight him sometimes when in company and on open spaces, just feels sometimes have too really pull on his mouth to stop him trotting or cantering off.
Whats a gd strong bit but kind?
- Thread starter samual
- Start date
amycov
Well-Known Member
Try a pelham? A lot of horses go nicely in them without having to be too harsh with your hands.
VioletStripe
Well-Known Member
yeah, maybe a pelham or perhaps a kimblewick? x
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I like my PeeWee bit. It has a very thin mouthpiece which fleshy-mouthed horses seem to appreciate, they also like the sweet-iron taste. I am actually using the second one now. I got one when my Clydesdale ran away with me and only stopped when I pointed her at a wall. After she had to be pts (not connected) I lent the bit to a friend who events and needed something that her horse would respect while jumping. She also found it effective. After some trial and error (including bit bank bits) I got another one for my IDx and she seems to be very comfortable in it. It is mild but very effective for both steering and brakes when necessary and it is possible to have it on different 'settings' for different activities. My sister really likes a pelham for her mare.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
A dutch gag without a curb strap or chain simply doesnt work.
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
A dutch gag should be ridden with TWO reins and should also have a curb strap.
Riding with a single rein on the bottom ring gives the horse no respite and is a recipe for a hard mouth which means you start a viscious circle, you put an even stronger bit in and the mouth gets even harder, you eventually run out of bits to use.
The answer is boring but simple, more schooling/lessons, learn to use your body and not just your hands.
Riding with a single rein on the bottom ring gives the horse no respite and is a recipe for a hard mouth which means you start a viscious circle, you put an even stronger bit in and the mouth gets even harder, you eventually run out of bits to use.
The answer is boring but simple, more schooling/lessons, learn to use your body and not just your hands.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
A dutch gag without a curb strap or chain simply doesnt work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it does. It just works differently.
A dutch gag without a curb strap or chain simply doesnt work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it does. It just works differently.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
It works differently but BADLY! Totally agree with Sirena, dutch gags need two reins and a curb strap. It was designed to be used like this and its action to have a pressure-release system. the top rein used first and the lower rein used if needed to give a finer aid. One rein only confuses the communication and there is no release of pressure. Consequently you normally get a confused horse with a sore poll and a dead mouth! Some fight it, like the OPs horse but some submit because of the discomfort and the rider thinks the bit works. Also, alot of dutch gags have very fat mouthpieces, which few horses can cope with.
For anyone that thinks their horse goes ok with one rein they should try it with two and see if the horse goes any better.
Also agree with sirena that schooling provides most of the answer. in the meantime OP, look at the horses mouth conformation to see what sort of mouthpiece the horse can accomodate and go from there.
For anyone that thinks their horse goes ok with one rein they should try it with two and see if the horse goes any better.
Also agree with sirena that schooling provides most of the answer. in the meantime OP, look at the horses mouth conformation to see what sort of mouthpiece the horse can accomodate and go from there.
Stacie_and_Jed
Well-Known Member
I ride Jed in a gag with d-rings attached on the top and bottom ring!
I switched to a waterford dutch gag for jumping and that worked a treat.
SirenaXV1 - Using more body and less hands may not work with all horses! It certainly doesnt with mine if he gets running into his head.
I switched to a waterford dutch gag for jumping and that worked a treat.
SirenaXV1 - Using more body and less hands may not work with all horses! It certainly doesnt with mine if he gets running into his head.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It works differently but BADLY!
[/ QUOTE ]
Weeeell, one could say that depends on what you want to achieve. If it doesn't work, why is it seen so often on horses at high level SJing and eventing? Don't say some horses have greater tolerance than others, because that is of course true but it applies to every single bit; some horses will just go well in one and not in others.
If you're going to use 2 reins and a curb, then why wouldn't you use a pelham?
[ QUOTE ]
It was designed to be used like this
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've heard this said many times, but if that were the case, why is it not sold with a curb strap / chain and hooks?
[ QUOTE ]
Also agree with sirena that schooling provides most of the answer. in the meantime OP, look at the horses mouth conformation to see what sort of mouthpiece the horse can accomodate and go from there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed
It works differently but BADLY!
[/ QUOTE ]
Weeeell, one could say that depends on what you want to achieve. If it doesn't work, why is it seen so often on horses at high level SJing and eventing? Don't say some horses have greater tolerance than others, because that is of course true but it applies to every single bit; some horses will just go well in one and not in others.
If you're going to use 2 reins and a curb, then why wouldn't you use a pelham?
[ QUOTE ]
It was designed to be used like this
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've heard this said many times, but if that were the case, why is it not sold with a curb strap / chain and hooks?
[ QUOTE ]
Also agree with sirena that schooling provides most of the answer. in the meantime OP, look at the horses mouth conformation to see what sort of mouthpiece the horse can accomodate and go from there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I ride Jed in a gag with d-rings attached on the top and bottom ring!
I switched to a waterford dutch gag for jumping and that worked a treat.
SirenaXV1 - Using more body and less hands may not work with all horses! It certainly doesnt with mine if he gets running into his head.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but I hate roundings too, the Dutch Gag is designed for two reins as is the pelham.
Having had a True Bolter, by that I mean not just one that wants to gallop, I am talking about one that lost it completely and would run through any hedge/gate you pointed her at, I found the trick was to be aware at all times, and school school school. If I had put a stronger bit in her mouth it would just have got worse and worse over time, and would also have encourage her to rear. I rode her in a hanging cheek snaffle for dressage/hacking and a pelham with a leather curb and two reins for showing.
Hauling on their mouths with your hands will NOT stop a horse that wants to go, you HAVE to develop other strategies and that can only be achieved by schooling.
I ride Jed in a gag with d-rings attached on the top and bottom ring!
I switched to a waterford dutch gag for jumping and that worked a treat.
SirenaXV1 - Using more body and less hands may not work with all horses! It certainly doesnt with mine if he gets running into his head.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but I hate roundings too, the Dutch Gag is designed for two reins as is the pelham.
Having had a True Bolter, by that I mean not just one that wants to gallop, I am talking about one that lost it completely and would run through any hedge/gate you pointed her at, I found the trick was to be aware at all times, and school school school. If I had put a stronger bit in her mouth it would just have got worse and worse over time, and would also have encourage her to rear. I rode her in a hanging cheek snaffle for dressage/hacking and a pelham with a leather curb and two reins for showing.
Hauling on their mouths with your hands will NOT stop a horse that wants to go, you HAVE to develop other strategies and that can only be achieved by schooling.
Stacie_and_Jed
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I ride Jed in a gag with d-rings attached on the top and bottom ring!
I switched to a waterford dutch gag for jumping and that worked a treat.
SirenaXV1 - Using more body and less hands may not work with all horses! It certainly doesnt with mine if he gets running into his head.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but I hate roundings too, the Dutch Gag is designed for two reins as is the pelham.
[/ QUOTE ]Dont be sorry its your opinion!
I feel "my" horse goes better with D-Rings hence the reason for using them!
[ QUOTE ]
I ride Jed in a gag with d-rings attached on the top and bottom ring!
I switched to a waterford dutch gag for jumping and that worked a treat.
SirenaXV1 - Using more body and less hands may not work with all horses! It certainly doesnt with mine if he gets running into his head.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but I hate roundings too, the Dutch Gag is designed for two reins as is the pelham.
[/ QUOTE ]Dont be sorry its your opinion!
I feel "my" horse goes better with D-Rings hence the reason for using them!
teddyt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If it doesn't work, why is it seen so often on horses at high level SJing and eventing? If you're going to use 2 reins and a curb, then why wouldn't you use a pelham?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because that has become the norm due to a lack of understanding or education about the bit by a lot of people. Hardly anyone uses 2 reins or a curb strap, so people just follow, even top riders. Its fashion! Just like hardly anyone (relatively)looks in their horses mouth when deciding on a bit. And visually the bit looks like it can be used with one rein, whereas with a pelham one rein looks more obscure.
As to the pelham comparison, a dutch gag with curb and two reins still has a different action to a pelham with a curb and 2 reins. Some similarities but the mouthpiece slides on the gag, not on the pelham and the shanks are longer.
[ QUOTE ]
why is it not sold with a curb strap / chain and hooks?
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, fashion is the culprit. Most bits are made in india or china and they are produced according to instruction from the distributors. It has become accepted practice that dutch gags are used withone rein and no curb, so that is how thy are made. Its not right but until there is education on a massive scale and the correct use filters through that is how they will be made. If you look at some joints on bits they are huge and must be awful for the horse but people dont query it due to lack of education and so they are still produced. Alot of common bits are actually very crude!
Bitting correctly is an often over looked art. Things are changing, with more research into mouth conformation, bone spurs, etc but there is a long way to go and in the meantime people buy what is readily available and cheap. e.g the only in hand bits with brass rings available are hard fat badly shape nylon ones, soooo uncomfortable! But people dont question it because thats what the majority use. So i had a bit made with a nicer mouthpiece and brass rings, it cost me 8 times as much but at least my pony was happy.
If it doesn't work, why is it seen so often on horses at high level SJing and eventing? If you're going to use 2 reins and a curb, then why wouldn't you use a pelham?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because that has become the norm due to a lack of understanding or education about the bit by a lot of people. Hardly anyone uses 2 reins or a curb strap, so people just follow, even top riders. Its fashion! Just like hardly anyone (relatively)looks in their horses mouth when deciding on a bit. And visually the bit looks like it can be used with one rein, whereas with a pelham one rein looks more obscure.
As to the pelham comparison, a dutch gag with curb and two reins still has a different action to a pelham with a curb and 2 reins. Some similarities but the mouthpiece slides on the gag, not on the pelham and the shanks are longer.
[ QUOTE ]
why is it not sold with a curb strap / chain and hooks?
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, fashion is the culprit. Most bits are made in india or china and they are produced according to instruction from the distributors. It has become accepted practice that dutch gags are used withone rein and no curb, so that is how thy are made. Its not right but until there is education on a massive scale and the correct use filters through that is how they will be made. If you look at some joints on bits they are huge and must be awful for the horse but people dont query it due to lack of education and so they are still produced. Alot of common bits are actually very crude!
Bitting correctly is an often over looked art. Things are changing, with more research into mouth conformation, bone spurs, etc but there is a long way to go and in the meantime people buy what is readily available and cheap. e.g the only in hand bits with brass rings available are hard fat badly shape nylon ones, soooo uncomfortable! But people dont question it because thats what the majority use. So i had a bit made with a nicer mouthpiece and brass rings, it cost me 8 times as much but at least my pony was happy.
Lollii
Well-Known Member
A Pelham with roundings works for my horse to stop him being strong in company, I now don't even need to pull - just a tiny bit of pressure and he comes back, he is just lovely in it
I tried a gag, he hated it, just shook his head all the time.
I tried a gag, he hated it, just shook his head all the time.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Some good points well made. Thank you
I do think you are correct in saying too many people are not aware of how many bits work, but I still think it's a bit harsh to say using a bit a certain way, perhaps not the way it was designed, is wrong.
Surely Eric Lamaze knows what he's doing? (not a dutch gag, I know)
Surely Eric Lamaze knows what he's doing? (not a dutch gag, I know)
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Fab picture! Lovely horse.
No offence to anyone on here but i shouldnt think many posters have the ability and knowledge of eric lamaze, i know i havnt. And i wouldnt have thought he would choose that tack instead of schooling.
People of his level are a tiny % of the overall number of riders. In the hands of the majority of riders using a pelham or dutch gag with one rein is wrong to me. So yes, i was generalising but because i didnt think people like him would be reading this i make my point based on majority use
. It has become accepted to use a dutch gag with just one rein and imo this is wrong. But i do get your point.
No offence to anyone on here but i shouldnt think many posters have the ability and knowledge of eric lamaze, i know i havnt. And i wouldnt have thought he would choose that tack instead of schooling.
People of his level are a tiny % of the overall number of riders. In the hands of the majority of riders using a pelham or dutch gag with one rein is wrong to me. So yes, i was generalising but because i didnt think people like him would be reading this i make my point based on majority use
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
LOL
OK, we agree then