What's peoples beef with Ceasar Millian?

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What is it about his training people don't agree with? Someone commented on a post of a Facebook forum stating 'an owner that isn't a fan of CM is the best start any dog can have'

I was quite taken aback. I quite like Ceasar and rate him in extreme cases. Don't think that makes me a bad dog owner :-/

So what is it about Ceasar people don't like?
 
His training is nothing special and he does use spike collars which are regularly used in the USA. There are some brilliant dog trainers in the UK ( John Rogerson) for one who never ever need to resort to shock, spike equipment to get a dog ( even a problem one ) trained.

Ceasar Millian is a very good business man who can promote his stuff world wide to make him very rich. (remind you of anyone horsey??? :)
 
I dont know much about his techniques but my mum loves watching his tv programme and when I have watched it with her I didnt see anything wrong! also she dragged me along to see him at wembley arena (most random thing ever) but I did enjoy it and was very interesting :)
 
There will always be those, who having limited abilities, will criticise those who are skilled. It's the way of the world, I'm sorry to tell you.

Millan is a highly experienced and competent dog trainer, and there are many who've benefited from his thoughts.

Alec.
 
I saw the stage show too and loved it :D

I like his basic approach, exercise, discipline, affection, showing us the way people meet and interact with dogs, the way people put pressure on dogs when they are not even realising it.
I have done, still do and will do in future, use a pinch collar and I presume anyone who disagrees with that, will not be using a pelham, spurs or whip on their horse. I see it as a refining aid, not a permanent fixture.

Not a big fan of things like scruffing and pinning and rolling, do that on the wrong dog and you'll end up with your face missing - of course there is the 'don't try this at home' disclaimer but you can't account for idiots.

It's like anything, use the techniques that suit your dog, I like parts of Cesar Milan's training, I like bits of Jane Donaldson's training.
Dog training doesn't have to be ONLY pink and fluffy or ONLY yank and crank, there is a lot of middle ground and no system will fit every single dog on this planet.

His detractors always point to that video where he hangs the husky/wolf thing that repeatedly comes up the line at him and tries to bite his arm. I have asked on here several times what people would do if a dog of that size was coming up the line at them, and they never really give me an answer. I know I would rather cut off a dog's air supply momentarily, and keep doing it until the dog calms down, than have it hanging off my arm.
 
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Alec Swan said:
There will always be those, who having limited abilities, will criticise those who are skilled. It's the way of the world, I'm sorry to tell you.

Millan is a highly experienced and competent dog trainer, and there are many who've benefited from his thoughts.

Alec.
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^^^^ This.
I find in general the comments come from your average 1 dog household(usually a fluffy breed) who have never experienced much more than a recall issue or a dog that pulls;)
They are not people who have ever dealt with the heighened levels of aggression or breeds he has nor do they know anybody that has! it's your usual key board warriers who will advise people on their "limited experience" what not to do! or what is horribly cruel, but never offer any constructive advice (because they dont know where to start basicaly" nor do they have to worry about the dogs behaviour getting out of control as they are not the ones dealing with it nor do they have to deal with the fall out when the self and same dog is put to sleep/handed to rescue or sold on.
I have seen so many ownrs of puppies aswell as adult dog with severe behavioural issues (alot more) recently being told some out right ridiculous things on how to deal with certain behaviours and that firmness is not needed anymore in the dog world just love and treats and imo honest opinion we are heading towards more behavioural issues than we have ever seen before.
I am not saying I agree with all Cesar does and he rarely deal in he very basics of behaviour such as pulling or recall or house training which is not his fortee imo (tha would be Victoria Stillwells job) she deals with the very basics of training never aything taxing, but what we lack and need most ni regard to dog ownership most is common sense ( most dog owners seems to lack that these days)
Sure when the camera goes the dog may well lapse, thats because the moronic/ignorant owner is also in the equation and they remain behind with he dog:rolleyes:
I have said it again like I have before and i am also seeing more of people being turned away from positive training classes because all methods failed and the owner and dog are now left in limbo. :confused:

I am also seeing people would rather part with a dog or put it to sleep than adapt to a firmer way of handling where positive methods have failed (this baffles me the most):confused:
I think we will also find it's ignorance and the reluctance to use a variety of training and adapt and take knowledge of the more experienced on board that is setting puppys/dog owners up for fail and random forums (not this one):p dishing out frankly hideous advice.

For all the who har, it would be good if we could see a comparison tv show where we can see all these "others" trainers dealing with the same dogs/issues and see there methods then maybe we could learn somemore;)
I also think to many people are setting up as so called trainers/franchises and dishing out frankly dangerous and laughable info getting their cash and running.
Guess that was my rant.:p

Just to add I don't agree with all of CM's methods but have nothing bad/murderous to say about the fella, I can and do enjoy watching some of the programmes and have bee to see him:p
 
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CAYLA said:
I am also seeing more of people being turned away from positive training classes because all methods failed and the owner and dog are now left in limbo. :confused:

I am also seeing people would rather part with a dog or put it to sleep than adapt to a firmer way of handling where positive methods have failed (this baffles me the most):confused:

I also think to apeople are setting up as so called trainers/franchises and dishing out frankly dangerous and laughable info.
Guess that was my rant.:p
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Quoted for truth!!!
 
My beef is that it's quite easy to watch a few of his programs and to try out the techniques therein without actually having any understanding of dog behaviour, body language, pressure/release etc. and at best getting nowhere and looking a bit foolish and at worst trying to roll/pin the wrong dog and being badly hurt as a result.

Reference my OH, who likes to make a 'pssh!' noise á la Cesar and would be rolling them if I wouldn't clout him round the head for it - who gets absolutely no reaction, attention or respect from either dog. I who actually spend time training with the dogs don't need a pssh or a poke or often anything at all other than a stern eyebrow. :p
 
Ceaser Milan can train dogs. No doubt about it but the methods he uses are nothing special that you won't see used in any good training club anywhere. He did not invent the methods he uses. He is just very very good at marketing himself.

I will stand up and say that spike collars are absolutely not needed to train any dog neither is the electric shock. Also nor is the overly used treat system that so many trainers teach badly to so many dog owners.

I do not know what "fluffy bunny" dog training is so can't comment.

Maybe he can use a spike collar effectively was he using one at Wembly? But the majority of people could not.
 
I like his teeth. They're very white and I like the way he grits them to enunciate carefully. I adore his accent. All respect to him for doing what he's done. I think his methods work and he has really helped some dogs/owners. I don't believe he's anything like the American horse trainer who strikes me as plain idiotic, frankly.

I wish he'd come and help us with Zak or take him to his compound.

We restarted Jake and Brig à la Cesar Milan when they hit the terrible twos. We used the pshh noise. It worked. A stamped foot now has Brig circling back to heel. He's an easy dog, as is Bear, so the methods work.

I wouldn't use a prong or shock collar, I'm not trained and I thinkid make a mess of it. The other dog forum I'm on is very fluffy and they go crazy angry about CM.
 
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blackcob said:
My beef is that it's quite easy to watch a few of his programs and to try out the techniques therein without actually having any understanding of dog behaviour, body language, pressure/release etc. and at best getting nowhere and looking a bit foolish and at worst trying to roll/pin the wrong dog and being badly hurt as a result.

Reference my OH, who likes to make a 'pssh!' noise á la Cesar and would be rolling them if I wouldn't clout him round the head for it - who gets absolutely no reaction, attention or respect from either dog. I who actually spend time training with the dogs don't need a pssh or a poke or often anything at all other than a stern eyebrow. :p
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Lol...indeed, I would not roll/scruff or used anything prolonged, a reprimand should be short sharp and over within a mili second not a grapple. I do think men like that rolling stuff though:p, my OH likes to lay them flat, he does not force I may add and does stroke and get them to relax whilst other dogs sniff around said dog on floor (not my style) at all but each to their own and he gets good results.
And the pshhhh/shhh thing does make me chuckle:D esp when folk think that alone solves all issues, indeed as I mentioned thats where folk lack common sense.
My vocals are what my dogs listen to and at one time it may well have been coupled with a check. However I dont have to go through life constantly checking them a "hey" does the job:p, they learn and earn respect in equal measures.
 
padderpaws said:
Ceaser Milan can train dogs. No doubt about it but the methods he uses are nothing special that you won't see used in any good training club anywhere. He did not invent the methods he uses. He is just very very good at marketing himself.

I will stand up and say that spike collars are absolutely not needed to train any dog neither is the electric shock. Also nor is the overly used treat system that so many trainers teach badly to so many dog owners.

I do not know what "fluffy bunny" dog training is so can't comment.

Maybe he can use a spike collar effectively was he using one at Wembly? But the majority of people could not.
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I agree with some of your points, his firm stance on training is not new and some very old school (where funnily enough we never saw the behavioural isues we see now) as common sense prevailed some time in he past, dogs are more 4 legged childre now han actual dogs!.
Alot of he CM haters loved him when he first came about but we then spiraledinto fluffidom and he became the sporn of satin:D
He did not invent methods he just brought them to tv...indeed:D
I am/can be firm and I never learnt from CM (Im alot younger that he):p I learnt alot from my mam who is a bit older than he is:D and alot more learned along the way with the mass variery of issues I began to deal with.

No doubt those good classes are out here and teach variety, but in their minority! as they have been taken over by the classes I mentioned.

I don't use a prong collar or electric collar but have nothing against them and understand the need for there use.
 
CaveCanem said:
I saw the stage show too and loved it :D

I like his basic approach, exercise, discipline, affection, showing us the way people meet and interact with dogs, the way people put pressure on dogs when they are not even realising it.
I have done, still do and will do in future, use a pinch collar and I presume anyone who disagrees with that, will not be using a pelham, spurs or whip on their horse. I see it as a refining aid, not a permanent fixture.

Not a big fan of things like scruffing and pinning and rolling, do that on the wrong dog and you'll end up with your face missing - of course there is the 'don't try this at home' disclaimer but you can't account for idiots.

It's like anything, use the techniques that suit your dog, I like parts of Cesar Milan's training, I like bits of Jane Donaldson's training.
Dog training doesn't have to be ONLY pink and fluffy or ONLY yank and crank, there is a lot of middle ground and no system will fit every single dog on this planet.

His detractors always point to that video where he hangs the husky/wolf thing that repeatedly comes up the line at him and tries to bite his arm. I have asked on here several times what people would do if a dog of that size was coming up the line at them, and they never really give me an answer. I know I would rather cut off a dog's air supply momentarily, and keep doing it until the dog calms down, than have it hanging off my arm.
Click to expand...

^^^This. Words of common sense and wisdom, as usual.
 
My nan used a shock collar on her german shepherd who was crazy. They tried everything first and it was a last result. They put it on him, when he saw a dog and went ballistic, they shocked him once. Not going to lie he did whimper a bit however, since then they have never had to do it again, they put the collar on him and sometimes have to use the 'beep' setting on the collar, but he behaves so much better, ok sometimes he goes a bit crazy but nothing like before. My nan is very experienced with German shepherds- owned them all her life. and she did not just see CM do it then think "oh im going to try that".

In my opinion if you have 2 options- use something like an electric collar on your crazy, mad, 'want to kill everything' dog which works, or send him to a rescue/have him put down/ keep him and risk him hurting another person/dog, IMO I would chose the electric collar every time :)
 
CAYLA said:
^^^^ This.
I find in general the comments come from your average 1 dog household(usually a fluffy breed) who have never experienced much more than a recall issue or a dog that pulls;)
They are not people who have ever dealt with the heighened levels of aggression or breeds he has nor do they know anybody that has! it's your usual key board warriers who will advise people on their "limited experience" what not to do! or what is horribly cruel, but never offer any constructive advice (because they dont know where to start basicaly" nor do they have to worry about the dogs behaviour getting out of control as they are not the ones dealing with it nor do they have to deal with the fall out when the self and same dog is put to sleep/handed to rescue or sold on.
I have seen so many ownrs of puppies aswell as adult dog with severe behavioural issues (alot more) recently being told some out right ridiculous things on how to deal with certain behaviours and that firmness is not needed anymore in the dog world just love and treats and imo honest opinion we are heading towards more behavioural issues than we have ever seen before.
I am not saying I agree with all Cesar does and he rarely deal in he very basics of behaviour such as pulling or recall or house training which is not his fortee imo (tha would be Victoria Stillwells job) she deals with the very basics of training never aything taxing, but what we lack and need most ni regard to dog ownership most is common sense ( most dog owners seems to lack that these days)
Sure when the camera goes the dog may well lapse, thats because the moronic/ignorant owner is also in the equation and they remain behind with he dog:rolleyes:
I have said it again like I have before and i am also seeing more of people being turned away from positive training classes because all methods failed and the owner and dog are now left in limbo. :confused:

I am also seeing people would rather part with a dog or put it to sleep than adapt to a firmer way of handling where positive methods have failed (this baffles me the most):confused:
I think we will also find it's ignorance and the reluctance to use a variety of training and adapt and take knowledge of the more experienced on board that is setting puppys/dog owners up for fail and random forums (not this one):p dishing out frankly hideous advice.

For all the who har, it would be good if we could see a comparison tv show where we can see all these "others" trainers dealing with the same dogs/issues and see there methods then maybe we could learn somemore;)
I also think to many people are setting up as so called trainers/franchises and dishing out frankly dangerous and laughable info getting their cash and running.
Guess that was my rant.:p

Just to add I don't agree with all of CM's methods but have nothing bad/murderous to say about the fella, I can and do enjoy watching some of the programmes and have bee to see him:p
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Absolutely agree & well worth quoting again.
 
On phone do can't quote but some excellent replies from the usual suspects:). I am currently attending a "fluffy" class with Freya as the usual one I go to doesn't run through summer hols. Some of the methods used make me cringe and I can honestly say some of the pups have got worse . For eg there is a weim pup who barks at every other dog when it is sitting waiting for its turn. Trainers solution - when he starts barking she gives him a stuffed kong, reward bad behaviour or what !
 
I really like his shows and if he's the Monty Roberts of the canine world so be it.

I was reading an article by him at the weekend and he was saying that having camera crews on site is a very expensive business and he's under pressure to deliver results quickly. He said he'll get to a case and think now how am I going to get a quick result with this one when really left to his own devices it would take a lot longer.

He came across as a genuine guy tbh.
 
hollieeb said:
My nan used a shock collar on her german shepherd who was crazy. They tried everything first and it was a last result. They put it on him, when he saw a dog and went ballistic, they shocked him once. Not going to lie he did whimper a bit however, since then they have never had to do it again, they put the collar on him and sometimes have to use the 'beep' setting on the collar, but he behaves so much better, ok sometimes he goes a bit crazy but nothing like before. My nan is very experienced with German shepherds- owned them all her life. and she did not just see CM do it then think "oh im going to try that".

In my opinion if you have 2 options- use something like an electric collar on your crazy, mad, 'want to kill everything' dog which works, or send him to a rescue/have him put down/ keep him and risk him hurting another person/dog, IMO I would chose the electric collar every time :)
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Agree just like when people use a chiffney on a horse, a horse at our yard was extremely high spirited when leading, he has on full livery and would bugger off in his head collar, so we used a chiffney to lead him, as soon as that was in his mouth he was like a lamb.

Cm I haven't watched for years tobehonest.

Victoria S trains the owners as her owners that are on her shows have humanised their dogs expecting and wanting human behaviour from the dogs most of the time. She is good I like her.
 
I don't understand people's criticism of him either, other than to debate the pro's and con's of trying to train a dog in TV time.
Only time I saw him use an electric shock collar was for a dog that had been going for rattle snakes. Ceasar explained that using the collar was not an option he took lightly, but one that was necessary to stop the dog getting killed. Fair enough.
 
Forgot to say in my last post that it's easy to get hung up on one particular trainer or one sole method and end up not seeing the wood for the trees. It's okay to pick and choose which bits work for you.

For example (until recently, bloody thing has been cancelled due to staff politics :rolleyes:) all the training classes we went to used 'fluffy' reward-based methods for everything, from agility to dog reactivity ishoos - it was a Victoria Stilwell accredited franchise type thing. Works perfectly well long term for both my dogs.

The trainer would be horrified to learn that I have, and would again, use physical, aversive measures on either dog if they show the slightest interest in livestock. It is something I will not tolerate and could mean the difference between life or death should they ever get loose. There's not a treat or a squeaky toy in the world that is more rewarding than chasing a sheep so a good dose of fear will have to do.
 
We can go into operant and classical conditioning and positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement and aversion and shaping behaviour blah blah blah, but there are lots of different dogs out there just as there are lots of different people, rewarding the good and ignoring the bad doesn't mean jack to a dog which self-rewards, allowing some dogs to choose behaviours and not give them any clarity at all/no consequences for certain behaviours, messes their heads up.

Rutland, thanks, but as you may tell from my above rant, I am the poster child for 'tried that, whoops, didn't work, start again, new ball please!'
 
BBH said:
I really like his shows and if he's the Monty Roberts of the canine world so be it.

I was reading an article by him at the weekend and he was saying that having camera crews on site is a very expensive business and he's under pressure to deliver results quickly. He said he'll get to a case and think now how am I going to get a quick result with this one when really left to his own devices it would take a lot longer.

He came across as a genuine guy tbh.
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I'm with you. I think he's amazing with dogs and I really can't comprehend how anyone could be critical. How is it relevant " CM didn't invent this argument" CM has taken the time to understand dog and human behaviours and Shock Horror earns a living by taking his practice to the dog owning public. The cheek of him! The electric collars he used he demonstrates by having the owner hold it to show that it does not hurt and only in extreme cases has he used the pronged collar. There are no problem dogs just problem owners who forget that a dog is..surprise surprise! A Dog.
 
CaveCanem said:
We can go into operant and classical conditioning and positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement and aversion and shaping behaviour blah blah blah, but there are lots of different dogs out there just as there are lots of different people, rewarding the good and ignoring the bad doesn't mean jack to a dog which self-rewards, allowing some dogs to choose behaviours and not give them any clarity at all/no consequences for certain behaviours, messes their heads up.
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This This This This This.

P
 
Like a lot of other people I pick and choose the methods that will work with my dogs.

CM has come in for a bit of lambasting in the past for his aversive methods but I would like to see the positive training brigade have a go with some of the dogs CM has to deal with.

I got kicked out of a training class when I turned up with Fred my previous rescue Dobe, he had come to me as he was aggressive with other dogs and had bitten his owner. I found an old school ex police dog trainer who also owned Dobes. When Fred reacted to another dog if checked he would come up the lead at you and would bite. We turned him around but it wasnt using a clicker and a piece of cheese or chicken. The methods were not pretty and certainly gave him something else to focus on but it turned him around and he ending up being my dog of a lifetime. He was always wired and keen:rolleyes: but was one hell of a dog.
 
I read, then read and then re-read this thread, with continuing and growing interest. I'm impressed, there are some Dog Men (Girls :o:D) amongst you. It's hardly my place to approve, I realise, but I do none-the-less! ;)

Alec.
 
My dog was very dog aggresive and I did use the pinning thing to an extent,along with letting the strange dog sniff him whilst laying down. Im not a behaviourist but I like to think I understand dogs pretty well and this was the turning point in his behaviour. That said, (the hypocrite that I am!!:p) I can 100% understand how badly it could go wrong in the wrong hands!!

now, what do we like about Cesar..?! I'l Start!!
1)his accent
2)he's so smart
3)his charisma
4)his looks (this would be higher, but Im only 24...)
5)his beautiful smile/teeth...
and you say his show is about dogs??!!! :D:p
 
I would just like to clarify Amybs post a lot of people cant tell the difference between dog aggression and fear aggression(not including you in this Amyb:).

If that procedure had been carried out on a fear aggressive dog it would have had the opposite affect and made the dog ten times worse.
 
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