What's peoples beef with Ceasar Millian?

amy_b said:
now, what do we like about Cesar..?! I'l Start!!
1)his accent
2)he's so smart
3)his charisma
4)his looks (this would be higher, but Im only 24...)
5)his beautiful smile/teeth...
and you say his show is about dogs??!!! :D:p
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is it just my imagination or have his teeth got whiter with every series?:eek::D
 
CaveCanem said:
His detractors always point to that video where he hangs the husky/wolf thing that repeatedly comes up the line at him and tries to bite his arm. I have asked on here several times what people would do if a dog of that size was coming up the line at them, and they never really give me an answer. I know I would rather cut off a dog's air supply momentarily, and keep doing it until the dog calms down, than have it hanging off my arm.
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I have similar husky/wolf type thing and he is a lovely dog - but he has a problem with other dogs getting aggressive on the lead. He is much, much better as the only dog in the house and he is better to walk now that Xara has gone to the Bridge and he doesn't feel the need to defend her.

But I have been on the receiving end of him losing his temper and got between him and another dog. I have scars on my leg.

In the same position as CM - I wouldn't hesitate to resort to similar methods to maintain my own safety. They are big, althletic dogs with big teeth and even a 'love tap' does damage :eek:.

We're working on the issues, so it shouldn't come to that though :).
 
amy_b said:
My dog was very dog aggresive and I did use the pinning thing to an extent,along with letting the strange dog sniff him whilst laying down. Im not a behaviourist but I like to think I understand dogs pretty well and this was the turning point in his behaviour. That said, (the hypocrite that I am!!:p) I can 100% understand how badly it could go wrong in the wrong hands!!

now, what do we like about Cesar..?! I'l Start!!
1)his accent
2)he's so smart
3)his charisma
4)his looks (this would be higher, but Im only 24...)
5)his beautiful smile/teeth...
and you say his show is about dogs??!!! :D:p
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:D all those things and yes his teeth have got whiter. I might put looks a bit further up the scale though. I love the episode where he works with Jillian from the Biggest Looser and gets on the horse behind her. Oh envy:o
 
Alec Swan said:
There will always be those, who having limited abilities, will criticise those who are skilled. It's the way of the world, I'm sorry to tell you.

Millan is a highly experienced and competent dog trainer, and there are many who've benefited from his thoughts.

Alec.
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Absabloodylutely! His methods plus a little bribery for thickheads like bull terriers can just work so well.I would love the critics to demo just how good they are..on tv of course.:)
 
I have a bit of an aversion to the marketing circus that surrounds 'magic' animal trainers and the hype/money involved. I think the point about the fact that he is not doing anything new is that there is no reason to buy into the hype surrounding him. Yes, he does have a natural affinity with dogs, so do many other trainers. What he predominantly has though, like the Parellis, is a marketing machine propelling him to stardome.

My other concern is that it's one thing to be a gifted animal handler yourself and quite another to be able to train others. People will always misunderstand and misapply training techniques, but the potential for causing harm with aversive techniques is much greater than the potential for causing harm with positive reward techniques. The scruffing, pinning and rolling stuff can seriously get people bitten and set some dogs back in their training.

I would be much happier if people with challenging dogs got 1 to 1 help from experienced trainers without the need to get the whole thing televised and copied.
 
Oh boo hiss Booboos..this is how he earns his living so of course he has to have a marketing machine. And not all people misunderstand and misapply his methods. Most of the work he does anyhow is on the owners and getting them to understand the nature of their dog and to stop humanising it. The corrections he applies to dogs by making them submit is what another dog would do in the same situation. It's no use standing there waving a finger at it saying 'naughty doggy, don't do that! The work he's done with timid or traumatised dogs is also really interesting so it's not all rolling and holding down to submit.
 
gemin1eye said:
What about "flooding" our dogs to help with their fears? Is that acceptable?
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I wouldnt have done that with Darcy my female Dobe, flooding would have been far too much for her. She was fear aggressive and would sound off at any strange dog so I just worked on getting her focused on me and gradually got closer to the other dog. When I first started taking her to classes she was overwhelmed by all the strange dogs, we kept our distance and over a course of weeks she was happy to walk past them. This was in a village hall so quite closely confined. All the dogs were on leads and they were all types but all friendly. There was a Boxer she really had a problem with him but the owner and I worked outside before class and she would just tolerate him, they were never going to be best friends but as long as they were not touching she was accepting of him.
 
Flooding as I see it is presenting a dog with an overload of its worse fears, for example Darcy my Dobe bitch was terrified of other dogs and she would display fear aggression. If I took her into a large group of dogs it would have been too much hence my getting her focused on me and walking by one strange dog, then upping the ante by adding more but I would not have increased this if she was stressed. Stressed dogs dont learn hence I dont agree with flooding with fear aggressive dogs.
 
Alec.. It's when he makes dogs face up to whatever terrifies them. Hence by exposure coupled with positive experience the dog realises the fear is unwarranted. Chucking a dog that's scared of water into a pool for example. Didn't know it was called flooding or in the dog in water example do I mean drowning:confused:
Blimey! What kind of rotter would do that to a dog! :D
 
The two last posters, thank you for that. "Flooding" was as I suspected, and yes, I too have done it. Many years ago, we would take greyhounds that couldn't cope, down onto the London Undergrounds. I found out that it took a degree of relationship, bonding and empathy with the dog, to make progress, but yes, it worked, mostly.

Flooding, as it's been described, and in my modest opinion, is an excellent way of restoring or installing confidence, BUT, and this is vital, the upright bit on the end of the lead, needs to have previously built up a relationship with the dog, and a "Never mind darling, mummy/daddy loves you" approach will only make matters worse.

Thinking about it, I suspect that the trick is to allow a dog to see it's companion (you or I) as support, rather than being reliant upon them. We need to encourage our charges to think for themselves.

Alec.
 
Flooding is sustained exposure to the fear-evoking stimulus until fear subsides. There are a variety of approaches (as far as I understand it) from exposure to many, full-intensity objects of fear (take the dog to a place with a lot of other dogs and do nothing to prevent them from approaching), or gradual exposure of increasing intensity (take the dog to a place where only one dog is visible in the distance, gradually increase proximity and number of dogs). It can be accompanied by reward of desirable behaviour and I think there are debates over whether the feared object should approach the animal independently, or whether the animal should be allowed to approach the feared object (although I am not certain on the extent of the disagreement on this).

I think that overall there is agreement that if the fear response remains at the end of the exposure period the animal will be worse off as a result. The exposure must continue until the fear is overcome.
 
winterwood said:
If he was as good a trainer as he thinks he should have read this dog a lot better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM
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i work with horses (nowhere near as many horses as CM does dogs) and you know what occasionally i get caught out and i get knocked, pushed or pulled about, it happens and if it was not for CM that dog would be an ex-dog now but instead she is at his rehabilitation centre being worked with. i could not do that so my hat goes off to him
 
Really interesting topic and some great replies. As a CM fan I thought I'd weigh in with my two pennies worth.

I think the main reason that CM is the one trainer that is doing so well from his TV program is not so much the methods he uses as I'm sure there are a lot of trainers out there who are similar, its the fact that he is so personable and great at explaining things. The way at the beginning of each episode he tries to get to know the owner so that he can explain things in a way that they understand and can relate to. Also.... I have a bit of a celebrity crush on him and once had a rather 'interesting' dream about him!!

As for his methods, I am a massive fan of the exercise, discipline, affection system as well as being aware of the energy you are projecting as this makes a massive difference. I also like how he explains dogs' body language so people are more aware of the 'early warning signs' rather than just reacting once the dog is already so wound up its completely oblivious to you.

We do use the pssht sound in our house and find that it works well (with the cat as well as the dog) and when we dog sit my friends dog it has really helped with the one that can be a little dominant. We can recognise the dominant behaviour before be becomes a problem (tail and ears start to raise for example) and therefore nothing escalates.

As many have said before, I think his methods are a great thing to have in your 'training toolkit' but everything should be taken with a pinch of salt and every dog owner should realise that different dogs will react differently to different training methods.
 
Katikins said:
Really interesting topic and some great replies. As a CM fan I thought I'd weigh in with my two pennies worth.

I think the main reason that CM is the one trainer that is doing so well from his TV program is not so much the methods he uses as I'm sure there are a lot of trainers out there who are similar, its the fact that he is so personable and great at explaining things. The way at the beginning of each episode he tries to get to know the owner so that he can explain things in a way that they understand and can relate to. Also.... I have a bit of a celebrity crush on him and once had a rather 'interesting' dream about him!!

As for his methods, I am a massive fan of the exercise, discipline, affection system as well as being aware of the energy you are projecting as this makes a massive difference. I also like how he explains dogs' body language so people are more aware of the 'early warning signs' rather than just reacting once the dog is already so wound up its completely oblivious to you.

We do use the pssht sound in our house and find that it works well (with the cat as well as the dog) and when we dog sit my friends dog it has really helped with the one that can be a little dominant. We can recognise the dominant behaviour before be becomes a problem (tail and ears start to raise for example) and therefore nothing escalates.

As many have said before, I think his methods are a great thing to have in your 'training toolkit' but everything should be taken with a pinch of salt and every dog owner should realise that different dogs will react differently to different training methods.
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The huge issue with your post is the use of the word DOMINANT- which is out dated clap trap proven scientifically to be nonsense.
 
It's true that lots of people think their dogs are dominant because they saw it on The Dog Whisperer.
Truly dominant dogs are rare and thankfully not usually in pet homes. Dogs are not sitting plotting ways to overthrow us and take over our homes. But some dogs do try and push their luck.

I used to think my older dog was dominant, he was not, I forced him into a position he did not want to be in.
My younger dog would have the capacity to be dominant but I don't let him...if I give him a centimetre, he takes ten miles.
 
amy_b said:
do you have a link to this?
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html
http://www.veterinarybehaviorclinic.com/downloads/DominanceFinal.pdf
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=...#v=onepage&q=dominance theory in dogs&f=false

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Behavior/Bradshaw_2009.pdf

In one of the conclusions it states "Moreover, when dogs are able express their social and
sexual behavior with minimal interference from man, there
is no evidence that they adopt a wolf-type social structure" which is what dominance based theories surround. There are a LOAD more just google scholar it.

I'm not claiming to be an expert but I do not want to dominate my dog- with alpha rolls etc etc...... be a leader to it yeah- show it right from wrong- yeah.
 
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This article sums up the current state of understanding with respect to dominance - which is a within and not between species behaviour ;) - and how this relates to training.

It's a position statement from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior...
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

Remember that while Cesar Millan may have clear explanations for behaviour, his explanations may be personal to him and not agree with how the same behaviour is interpreted by someone who studies behaviour. In Defence of Dogs by John Bradshaw is a good place to start reading about this, and he includes full references to the academic research if that's what people want.
 
Alec Swan said:
There will always be those, who having limited abilities, will criticise those who are skilled. It's the way of the world, I'm sorry to tell you.

Alec.
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This was my first thought when I read the opening post.

Some people just love to hate those who either do things better than them or show up their own flaws;)

I love watching CM,he's always so well 'turned out' apart from anything else,and he has the nicest teeth:p

He's taken a talent and made it a tv success,fair play to the bloke.I suspect many dog owners have made some effort to take training and education of their dogs a bit more seriously after having watched his programmes,and that has to be a good thing.
 
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