What's this all about then?

[DabDab]

I've seen a few children recently who, in their effort to get their ponies to go 'on the bit' are using the reins to 'saw' at the pony's mouth. I don't mean jiggling the reins a bit - I mean moving their hands alternately backwards and forwards by about 5 inches.

I was just wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to where that comes from? Because these are kids who are going to PC rallies and having weekly lessons and yet don't seem to get pulled up for it, unless they are just doing it out of sight. It is something that I find very bizarre that a child to start doing, because I have absolutely no doubt that if I had done that as a kid I would have been told to get off the pony.

So yeh - I just thought it might help with my tongue biting if I knew where it actually came from.

 

[Cortez]

Who knows? I've seen all sorts of people do that, not just kids - I think it is a sort of self-generated idea by people who havn't got a clue.

 

[blitznbobs]

The same school that says if you ride with your hands on the floor the horse will come round. And if you want a horse to go forward you have to kick every stride..

 

[_GG_]

Well, many of the instructors around me will tell clients not to be fussy or play with the hands, but them they will get on the horse and do just that. I even saw a child question her instructor on it once and the response was, "I have experienced enough hands to know how to ask in the right way".

80% of the instructors I know of will put horses in gadgets and advise use of bungees/draw reins at home and actively encourage "roundness".

If I had a quid for every time I heard a local instructor tell people to get their horses more round without any mention of hind end or working correctly I would be rich.

There is such a pressure it seems to get horses looking like they are on the bit that it is a foregone conclusion that some will just get it at all costs.

I was recommended an instructor last year. 15 minutes into the lesson I had to call it a day. This qualified instructor kept asking me to get Fly rounder, bring her carriage up, rounder, higher frame and so on. I thought I would be fair and ask her why. She said that in order to get the horse carrying me over her back properly, I needed to get the head down.

That is when I came to a walk on a loose rein, and said thanks, but I didn't want to continue. She asked why and I told her that I didn't put preference on Flys head position over her wellbeing.

She asked me to expand on that (she didn't know my background) and so I told her what I thought. I told her that to start with, I didn't want Fly to be carrying me over her back. Explained that I didn't consider a horses back to be very well designed for weight carrying, but that maybe she meant carry the weight by having her back rounded??? She said, no...and that a horse should learn to drop the head and carry you properly on it's back and that a dropped head shows relaxation and acceptance of your weight.
I wanted to go into a full on explanation of why I felt that was so very wrong.

I didn't. I referred to the British Dressage definition of "on the bit" and reminded her that in order for the horse to be in self carriage, it needs to have many other things in place, the head position being the last piece of the puzzle.

This is a BHS qualified instructor and I did do everything the told me to for the 15 minutes. After I said my bit, she said, " how do you get a horse on the bit without giving it a contact and telling it where you want it?"

How can you be qualified to teach others when you have to ask a question like that? She was genuinely interested to know. I showed her how I rode Fly and she said that horses shouldn't be able to get themselves into a frame like that with such light aids?????

If these kids are being taught by people like her....there's the answer to your question.

Unbelievable and I will always have lessons, but am very picky about who they are from.

 

[Goldenstar]

Kids sawing on the bit is my pet hate .
I don't know where they are being taught it but they certainly are .

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

G_G that is also my experience of how most instructors teach. OP I've seen people ride like this since forever, both adults and children.

 

[*sprinkles*]

That's very interesting GG, I can't believe that was a recommended instructor! I have seen so much of this sawing and I think it's through sheer ignorance of what it means to have the horse "on the bit" I wish we could drop this phrase as this in itself is confusing and puts too much emphasis on head carriage. I have taught students who have come to me yanking on their horse or pony's mouth who were genuinely puzzled when I explained to them what they were doing was incorrect and detrimental to their horses way of going. I am as confused as the OP as to where this "method" has come from though. I think if these riders would take the time to educate themselves on what they are actually trying to achieve it would go a long way to stopping them doing it. I suppose everyone is looking for shortcuts?

 

[_GG_]

There's an instructor locally who competes as well...I can't actually watch her ride and she knows why...I have told her. She will ride direct rein on the bottom ring of a gag or a tom thumb I've seen her do it in as well and she will pull her hands back alternately by about 6 inches each. When one horse refused a jump with her once (the last time I watched her ride) she decided to tell him off by replicating this sawing motion but at great speed, growling and proceeding to give it such a whack that it shot forward...only for her to yank at it again and shout again.

I wanted to put the bit in her mouth and pretend I was using a rope saw!!!

It is utterly disgraceful!

 

[DabDab]

I wanted to put the bit in her mouth and pretend I was using a rope saw!!!

It is utterly disgraceful!

It is really hard not to feel like that, and that's what I find so bizarre - that there seem to be so many people that can watch it and not feel like that. Adult riders in their own, largely insular world I can sort of get my head around, but when it comes to children, there must be so many people complicit in teaching and subsequently rewarding that kind of riding that it just baffles me. It makes me really sad that young riders are being taught/getting the idea to batter their ponies' mouths at such an early age.

But I suppose it's hardly any wonder if the qualified instructors on this thread are anything to go by

 

[Hoopsa]

Back in the dark ages I was taught to squeeze the reins like squeezing water from a sponge so it dripped. I genuinely never heard the term 'on the bit' but, because we were taught about impulsion and correct use of the natural aids, I now know the ponies were 'on it'. I could not agree more with GG and admire her for having the courage of her convictions. When judging Riding Club dressage it is possible to identify the local instructors from the way the competitors ride. One around here seems to believe that by placing the hands on the knees, the horse is both comfortable and working correctly. I soon learnt to decline invitations to such events.

 

[Bernster]

It is sad, but it's a fairly inevitable result of this idea of moving the bit/waggling the reins alternatively etc etc which is how many people are taught to get a horse on the bit, i.e. pull it's head in and make it look like it's in an outline

Very hard for most amateur riders to know how to distinguish between what might be the correct aids for rein contact/direction etc. with see sawing the bit in the horse's mouth. And so many instructors out there don't seem to be helping sadly.

IME there are very few who can explain the concept clearly, so I'm not surprised that it's more than just kids on ponies.

 

[JFTDWS]

Kids sawing on the bit is my pet hate .
I don't know where they are being taught it but they certainly are .

I hate it equally in adults to

 

[Lolo]

I hate it equally in adults to

I hate it way more in adults. Adults are much more able to really appreciate the damage they can do with that technique, and are generally more able to process "if you do this mildly counter intuitive thing, this happens and therefore your horse can work like this". Children often lack the core strength to really ride from the seat and they use their own impressions of instructions to take shortcuts. Like, Al's SJ instructor will say to her "play with his mouth" and what he means is gently squeeze and release the contact to encourage him to soften. A child might hear that and interpret it as "fiddle and saw"...

Hands held too low is my real pet hate!

 

[Mince Pie]

" how do you get a horse on the bit without giving it a contact and telling it where you want it?"

Actually to some point I agree with this - I've found that by giving a horse and contact, and working into it from behind then the horse will naturally relax into it and the back will come up

 

[cob&onion]

Actually to some point I agree with this - I've found that by giving a horse and contact, and working into it from behind then the horse will naturally relax into it and the back will come up

I can feel when a horse isnt working correctly, especially on the cob. When i know she's going correctly she really lightens up in the hands on a very very light contact and she's really forward.
When i horse has been pulled in (ie held up or forced into an outline) its very heavy in the hands. leans and lacks impulsion.
Well thats my view on it anyway.

Leg leg leg, and lots and lots of transitions have helped my cob work correctly, we're not perfect yet but we're getting there

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

I was watching a very well known dressage trainer teaching her daughter with this method at a show once. I was shocked. They went and won the class too Shame because it encourages others to take the same 'quick fix' route.

 

[_GG_]

Actually to some point I agree with this - I've found that by giving a horse and contact, and working into it from behind then the horse will naturally relax into it and the back will come up

With the context of the instructions she was giving me during the lesson, I agree with your interpretation.

My idea of contact is the same as yours. This instructors directions to me to get the horse rounder were to..."keep pushing with the inside leg, fix the outside hand and sponge the inside and if she didn't round, start asking with the outside hand too until she submitted to the pressure...because it's all about pressure and release".

In my opinion...pressure and release is only half the story and only relevant to half of the things we do we do with horses.

To make a horse submit in the mouth through pressure is not something I will ever do. Riding a horse into a steady and consistent contact, asking, not telling or forcing is my chosen method.

Hope that gives some more clarity to why I was unable to continue with this instructor.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

I am 16 myself and although i don't ever saw at my ponies mouth and don't like seeing others doing it as a pc member i can understand why......there is a constant pressure to get your horse/pony "on the bit" and the sawing motion is a result of many instructors going on about a contact and as some say " taking a firm hold" (i don't agree with this) but not explaining it. From a personal point of view and although i have never resorted to this sometimes when you are up against it all eg. the other children on pushbutton, megabucks ponies/horses people are desperate to get some recognition and sadly if the pony isn't going "on the bit" but the person is riding beautifully no credit is given.

 

[tankgirl1]

I remember being told to gently 'saw' at the bit - not by a BHS instructor though - just the lady whose ponies I rode as a teenager.

At the mo I couldn't really care less how Boyo holds his head as long as he is forward off my leg. I always walk and let him stretch down at the end of a ride though.

He does lean down onto the forehand though, and we are planning lessons to rectify this! Going to have a few lessons on schoolmasters first though to make sure our positions/aids are correct and consistent

Boyo is a part loan share, so my part loaner and I need to make sure we are both riding the same way, asking for things in the same way etc

 

[nosenseofdirection]

Not all instructors teach children this! My daughter is seven and goes to a riding school where they also keep chickens. The children are taught to hold the reins as if they were newly hatched chicks. The instructor is forever calling out "don't squish the chick" and "don't drop the chick" to teach the kids to keep a firm but gentle and consistent contact. The children are only little but they understand this.

 

[Mithras]

That is when I came to a walk on a loose rein, and said thanks, but I didn't want to continue. She asked why and I told her that I didn't put preference on Flys head position over her wellbeing.

Thank you for saying this. Its like hitting your head against a brick wall. I'm not a dressage person, but a showjumper, but even I know the difference in feel that a hose in self carriage gives you compared to one that has had its poor head pulled in with draw reins or a pessoa into a false position that it isn't ready for. I lost track of the times I got told in Novice Hunter classes on my nice 4 year old that he wasn't rounded enough. Well no, he is only 4 and big and unbalanced and gangly, and I was concentrating on getting him going forwards, because I want him to go on and do a proper job when hes older.

 

[LollyDolly]

Can I ask how you all get a horse to go into a contact? In the clearest way possible please! I am helping a younger friend with her horse however I can't seem to clearly explain what she needs to do in order to get the horse to work properly and not have to saw her hands, I have gotten on and showed her however she still doesn't understand and I'm not that great at explaining things without confusing her.

So anyone fancy posting an idiots (for me because I'm useless at explaining, not my friend!) guide to how to get your horse on a proper contact so that I can pass it on?

 

[blitznbobs]

It depends on the horse but this is how I explain it

Firstly if the horse is well schooled - the inside rein asks the horse to bend round the inside leg ( simply slightly positioning but still as a rock. The legs ask for a forward motion . This should be an ask not a nag . If you don't get any movement from the first ask something should be changed so that might be a firmer kick or a tap with a stick but repeating the same over and over just makes the horse dead to the leg. When you have a forward moving horse moving in the direction you want him to move the you can introduce a little flex to the outside with the outside rein. ( in a well school horse this could be imperceptible but basically it's a vibration of the outside rein which asks the horse to relax his jaw and step thru into the contact . The second he does this the rein is given slightly as a reward and to ensure the horse never leans on the rein. This is the basics. If the horse is less well schooled the flexes might need to start bigger but the aim is to make them barely there so that the horse is into the contact but never against the contact. One of the rules I like to think while I'm riding is never give an aid you don't know what you are giving it for and never keep repeating an aid that doesn't give a change in the horses way of going.and always ignore the bad behaviour and even more importantly ALWAYS reward the good even if you didn't ask for it. This way the horse is very aware of what you want and associates that with nice things.

 

[shampain]

I find this really interesting because everyone has such different methods. I've had one main instructor for the past 3 years, but on a couple of occasions (whilst I was at boarding school/on holiday), before I had my own horse, I had lessons with a few other RIs. They were similar in methods to how GG described; fix with the outside rein, sponge the inside rein until the horse comes 'round'. I've never got on well with approaches that focus on the hands and the reins because of the methods that my primary instructor uses.

She focuses wholly on the body. The contact has to be there, consistent and forward feeling, but no messing. All the focus is on the back and hind end of the horse, thinking about how they're stepping under, how they're engaging their back muscles, etcetera etcetera. Get the body right and, hey presto! the head drops into a lovely outline without any fussing with the reins needed. In fact, I've found that if I think about the hands (or, heck, even look down at the head of the horse) I become to absorbed in the front end of the horse and unable to keep my mind on having the hindquarters and back end working properly (thus how I've discovered that, actually, I ride best with my eyes closed. Typical!). On one horse I'm riding currently I will just give a light squeeze (just closing the fingers) down one rein if he's stargazing and zoning me out completely, because I've found that in such situations he doesn't pay attention to the leg so much either, but that's about it.

The way riders (and, I would suppose, their instructors) focus on getting the head of the horse down before any other details, whether by sticking their hands below the withers (hunched shoulders and all) and sawing, or sticking draw reins on to help them 'develop the muscles' (the muscles will develop naturally, over time; it's a slow process, that's why they're not developed yet) is... worrying. People are always looking for a quick fix in their desperation to get the head 'on the bit'; because, let's face it, that's all that matters. I think that the truth of it is that the majority of them simply don't know how else to go about it, and resort to whatever seems to work.

 

[blitznbobs]

I have trained horses to GP and ridden at that level for some time . Ppl on this forum are obsessed with light hands but this does not mean no contact which is what it is often interpreted as. Equally people for get that kicking ( or squeezing if u prefer) should only be done to change something - a horse should maintain their pace without any signal. If my horse is told to trot/extend/ move sideways he should do this until I stop telling him - my pet hate is those people who think that to maintain impulsion you have to kick every stride. This is wrong and equally incorrect as pulling constantly at the mouth. Ignoring the front end an concentrating on the back end is actually only 1/2 the picture to get a horse going forward AND UP not down into the bridle you have to do the front and the back AT THE SAME TIME. Equally not having a contact is like wandering around with your bra undone - no use at all. (Except in very young children)

 

[little_critter]

Thinking back I don't think my instructor has ever commented on my horses head position (unless she is leaning on the bit). However if I get the horse 'on the bit' then it is an indicator that I have done everything else right, I don't actively seek to put the horse on the bit.

 

[Eggshells]

She focuses wholly on the body. The contact has to be there, consistent and forward feeling, but no messing. All the focus is on the back and hind end of the horse, thinking about how they're stepping under, how they're engaging their back muscles, etcetera etcetera. Get the body right and, hey presto! the head drops into a lovely outline without any fussing with the reins needed. In fact, I've found that if I think about the hands (or, heck, even look down at the head of the horse) I become to absorbed in the front end of the horse and unable to keep my mind on having the hindquarters and back end working properly (thus how I've discovered that, actually, I ride best with my eyes closed. Typical!). On one horse I'm riding currently I will just give a light squeeze (just closing the fingers) down one rein if he's stargazing and zoning me out completely, because I've found that in such situations he doesn't pay attention to the leg so much either, but that's about it.

This exactly! Even down to the bit about loosing it as soon as I think about my hands! Also found myself riding round with my eyes shut without realising I'm doing it

As for terrible teaching practices.. After a 10 year break from regular riding I returned to it but ended up with an instructor of the 'MAKE THAT HORSE SUBMISSIVE! HAND BY YOUR KNEES! GET THAT HEAD DOWN!' variety. Rode there for a few years as there was very little other choice but ended up hating it. Stayed there far longer than I wanted to as she had some truely lovely horses I grew incredibly fond of. I remember ending so many rides almost in tears about how I had been made to ride.

A year or two ago I found myself a horse to loan (and now have my own) and starting having lessons with this amazing woman. She is all about making YOUR body work correctly, if you are working right, the horse will be working right, if the horse is working right then it will look right. She often tells me to pretend my horse has nothing in front of the withers - maintaining a contact of course, but focusing on getting the body working correctly and engaging the back and hind quarters and the famed 'on the bit' will come naturally.

I feel there are two ways people seem to ride at the moment - the make it look like it is working then maybe get around to ensuring that it is way and then the longer, harder rout of making sure it is working and then get around to tweaking how it looks. I know which way I want to ride and I sure as hell know which way my horse wants me to ride him!

 

[Umbongo]

I used to have quite an old school instructor who taught me to ride properly!
I then tried out a few BHS riding instructors who actively encouraged sawing at the horses mouth and having my hands down by my knees! Needless to say I never went back to them.

 

[s4sugar]

Not all instructors teach children this! My daughter is seven and goes to a riding school where they also keep chickens. The children are taught to hold the reins as if they were newly hatched chicks. The instructor is forever calling out "don't squish the chick" and "don't drop the chick" to teach the kids to keep a firm but gentle and consistent contact. The children are only little but they understand this.

I like this.
I was told off if my instructor saw me move my hands unnecessarily as he felt finger movement were enough to convey my instructions to the horse. He also taught me to wiggle a bit with just one finger to get the horse to pay attention. We never bothered about outline or keeping heads low but did "do" impulsion and suppleness.

 

[PleaseVenus]

As a pretty nocicey rider I am so confused!

Are there aids to get a horse 'on the bit'? Or does it happen naturally when everything else is right? It feels like instructors say so many different things. One says firm outside hand and then sponge with the inside, once the horse is going forward. Is that essentially sawing?

It seems like an obsession but nobody can explain or be in agreement as to how to do it.

Idiot post maybe but it sounds like I'm not the only person who's been told many different things by various instructors